No more choosing the Light or Dark Side in-game

[Emperor Devon]

I've noticed how a morality system is a large subject of discussion here, but everyone seems to be forgetting something.

 

Assuming there will not be a new playable character (and that you have Revan and the Exile), there really shouldn't be much of a morality system.

 

I think it would be best if you selected Revan and the Exile's starting alignment from the main menu, and rather than having the choice of the Dark or Light Side in the game, instead you'd go ever further into the depths of evil (or good). Revan and the Exile's alignments have been pretty much determined in the previous two games. It wouldn't make that much sense if the player had the option for the Exile to go Light Side after she had exterminated the Jedi Order.

 

If you had the option to choose what happened in the previous games at the main menu and got set with an alignment, it probably wouldn't be that restrictive. Say that you selected Revan to be on the Dark Side. Rather than staying the same throughout the whole game, Revan could start to learn far more refined ways of evil, and steadily fall even further into the depths of the Dark Side than he had before.

 

What are your thoughts?

[Lightsider]

either way, you know Revan is going to come back and be in charge of a new Mandalorian army. But like in the Movies and the games, there has always been a chance for redemption so this one is going to be a stumper!

[Emperor Devon]

A Mandalorian army? Revan will be in charge of the Sith if he's evil, or the Republic if he's good. The Mandalorians will his commandos no matter what side he's on.

 

And there won't be chance to be redeemed or to fall, Revan and the Exile made their choices... They'd be flip-floppers if they changed their minds.

[stingerhs]

heck no. i'd be completely disappointed if a system like this was implemented in Kotor III. one of the coolest ideas that had me sold on the Kotor was the ability to start out as a seemingly random person and move them along either dark or light paths, or switch their alignments half-way through. the method you're proposing leaves almost nothing open to the player as to how the character is aligned with the exception of one point at the create-a-character portion. i'd go as far to say that i wouldn't even bother playing Kotor III if this idea was implemented.

 

oh yeah, and for the last time: I DO NOT WANT EITHER REVAN OR THE EXILE TO BE MY PC OR EVEN A SELECTABLE PARTY NPC.

 

and don't take this as a flame, Devon. i'm just really opposed to a system like this.

[Jeff]

Assuming there will not be a new playable character (and that you have Revan and the Exile), there really shouldn't be much of a morality system.

I think there will be a new PC. It would be hard for them to make Revan or the Exile the PC, since you would have to decide a ton of things about what happened in the previous game.

What are your thoughts?

I don't really like the idea. Like stinger said, I love how you can choose your alignment, and change your path whenever. It adds a lot to the kotor games, and I definately hope they keep that system.

[IndianaSolo]

I really hope they don't have Revan or the Exile as the returning PC, so I've gotta completely disagree with this thread about not being able to choose LS or DS.

[Prince]

^^^^

 

I agree.

 

There should definitely be a new PC. It would save time instead of having to decide a million things about Revan and Exile's past.

[Mira Dona]

But choosing between light or dark during your journey is part of the reason why these games are so good. . .

[lukeiamyourdad]

heck no. i'd be completely disappointed if a system like this was implemented in Kotor III. one of the coolest ideas that had me sold on the Kotor was the ability to start out as a seemingly random person and move them along either dark or light paths, or switch their alignments half-way through. the method you're proposing leaves almost nothing open to the player as to how the character is aligned with the exception of one point at the create-a-character portion. i'd go as far to say that i wouldn't even bother playing Kotor III if this idea was implemented.

 

oh yeah, and for the last time: I DO NOT WANT EITHER REVAN OR THE EXILE TO BE MY PC OR EVEN A SELECTABLE PARTY NPC.

 

 

Quoted for enphasis

 

Seriously, no offence to Devon, but this is the worst idea we've had yet. It turns it into JA where you "could choose the lightside or the darkside".

 

The entire fun of KotOR was turning from light to dark or dark to light because of your actions. This would only be:"Darkside press here. Lightside press here."

It would remove one of the core elements of KotOR.

Heck, I could deal with a combat system change but not this.

[Emperor Devon]

Quoted for enphasis

Seriously, no offence to Devon, but this is the worst idea we've had yet. It turns it into JA where you "could choose the lightside or the darkside".

 

No offense taken, but what do you call the encounter with Bastila on the temple summit?

 

The entire fun of KotOR was turning from light to dark or dark to light because of your actions. This would only be:"Darkside press here. Lightside press here."

It would remove one of the core elements of KotOR.

Heck, I could deal with a combat system change but not this.

 

It's not like you'd be pressing buttons all the time, just at the main menu. Revan and the Exile would steadily get eviler and eviler. To be able to change your mind after killing off all the Jedi would be - well, stupid.

[lukeiamyourdad]

No offense taken, but what do you call the encounter with Bastila on the temple summit?

 

Hmm...You are quite right about this though. TSL had no such thing.

 

 

 

It's not like you'd be pressing buttons all the time, just at the main menu. Revan and the Exile would steadily get eviler and eviler.

That would be pointless. Why would they get eviler? Assuming they get to Dark Side mastery, what's left? KotOR left the door open for your redemption. Like I said, your actions should make you evil, not a lightside or darkside button.

 

 

To be able to change your mind after killing off all the Jedi would be - well, stupid.

 

I suppose that it was also stupid when Darth Vader decide to go back to the light to save his son.

[Lightsider]

Vader was never trully dark side, he made the choice to go down that path to save lives, this is not what a true sith lord would do.

[Jeff]

Vader was never trully dark side, he made the choice to go down that path to save lives, this is not what a true sith lord would do.

But he killed a ton of people along the way. Can anyone say force choke?

 

It's rediculous to say that Vader was never truly dark side.

[Emperor Devon]

That would be pointless. Why would they get eviler? Assuming they get to Dark Side mastery, what's left? KotOR left the door open for your redemption. Like I said, your actions should make you evil, not a lightside or darkside button .

 

Why would they get eviler? They're fighting the True Sith, who are far more cruel and vicious than the fake ones. Revan and the Exile would probably learn from their actions before killing them.

Anyways, it would seem rather odd to have exterminated the Jedi Order in TSL and start out neutral. Whether a person can redeemed or not, you probably would be on the Dark Side if you've wiped out the guardians of peace and justice.

 

The ideal a Sith should strive for is to fall so far no chance of redemption is possible.

 

 

I suppose that it was also stupid when Darth Vader decide to go back to the light to save his son.

 

Yeah, it was. He was a great Sith Lord. Not as great as Sidious, but it was a pity that all his potential was wasted. Given a few more decades on the Dark Side, who knows what he would have been like.

[IndianaSolo]

The main reason I don't think this is a good idea at all is because the LS/DS options are one of the most interesting parts of this series. Removing them would make your choices pretty obsolete. If you had to pick to play as a certain alignment from the very beginning, then already 50% of your choices are decided before you even begin the game. No thank you.

[Commas]

(in response to K1's blantent light/dark temple summit choice) Hmm...You are quite right about this though. TSL had no such thing.

 

Well, it sort of did with the Jedi Masters and whether you decided to kill them or let them live, although it was much more subtle than K1's temple summit. I've never tried only killing one and letting the other two live, but i've heard that even if you don't kill them all, the game assumes you have gone darkside and they will attack you anyway, even if you just kill one. But, like i said, its much more subtle.

 

however, i have to say that i agree with everyone else here that the light/dark system is an integral part of the kotor experience. personally, i'd like this system to be more in depth with less thugish darkside choices, but being able to pick an alignment at the beginning takes away like, half the game. i really enjoy trying to make the same decisions i would make, instead of hunting out the most obvious dark or light choices, and seeing how my characters end up at the end, it makes for a much more organic and indepth and making me choose an alignment at the beggining means i'm not really playing as myself as much as i am playing a premade character.

[Mono_Giganto]

The Darth Vader example was exactly what I was thinking of LIAYD.

 

Vader was never trully dark side, he made the choice to go down that path to save lives, this is not what a true sith lord would do.

 

Correction, he made that choice to save a life, killing hundreds of others in the process. Extremely selfish. In the end, he even attacked the person he was trying to save, because he had gained power, and was afraid to lose it.

 

 

As for Vader's potential in a few decades... Well, he's human. He's in his mid forties by RotJ time. Safe to say old age takes over what little is left of his body.

 

As for the LS/DS thing, it takes away a big aspect of TSL's gameplay. Besides, if you go DS in TSL, Kreia gives you a big speech about why what you did was stupid. It may not have meant much for you, but my DS Mastery Sith Assassin went LS as best as he could after that. She had several good points. As for Light corrupting to Dark, uh, that can happen at any time frmo what I've seen in the movies. Even the greatest Jedi has the opporunity to fall.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Why would they get eviler? They're fighting the True Sith, who are far more cruel and vicious than the fake ones. Revan and the Exile would probably learn from their actions before killing them.

 

So because you see someone killing puppies, you start killing puppies too? I thought Sith Lords were more capable to think for themselves other then following what others do. What you could learn from them is not attitude itself, but knowledge (ie how to have a better control of the Force or better saber styles).

 

Anyways, it would seem rather odd to have exterminated the Jedi Order in TSL and start out neutral. Whether a person can redeemed or not, you probably would be on the Dark Side if you've wiped out the guardians of peace and justice.

 

You simply assume that you're going to play as either the Exile or Revan. Yet, by your sayings, you've just added another reason why it's a bad idea to bring those characters back as the PC.

 

The ideal a Sith should strive for is to fall so far no chance of redemption is possible.

 

Redemption is always possible. Ideal or not, no one can totally erase one-self.

The question really, is how far can you fall. This is not the object of the debate at all.

 

 

Yeah, it was. He was a great Sith Lord. Not as great as Sidious, but it was a pity that all his potential was wasted. Given a few more decades on the Dark Side, who knows what he would have been like.

 

Your personnal opinion does not stand in the way of facts. Vader was redeemed, so can be a Darkside Revan or Exile. Even so, Revan, if you've played KotOR on the Lightside, was redeemed.

[IndianaSolo]

Which also goes back to choice. That was one of the biggest selling points of KOTOR, and of cRPGs in general: having the choice to do with your character what you want.

 

If you remove the LS/DS options and instead select from the very beginning which alignment you are, then you no longer have a choice about how to approach situations.

[MonCalamaerosta]

No offense taken, but what do you call the encounter with Bastila on the temple summit?

 

 

 

It's not like you'd be pressing buttons all the time, just at the main menu. Revan and the Exile would steadily get eviler and eviler. To be able to change your mind after killing off all the Jedi would be - well, stupid.

Perhaps, but part of what made KOTOR II so cool was that it wasn't as much a decision of morality as much as it was one of strength, one of right, not necessarily good or evil. If that were the case, the exile might have destroyed the Jedi for being weak and flawed in their teachings, and promptly afterwards restructured the order to emphasize the lessons he/she had learned. I think the second game opened up a new side that didn't necessarily stratify the entire experience into good or evil, and made it more open for interpretation. That being so, it seems that the lightside and darkside shifts would have to continue in order to keep the spirit of the game alive. I have a feeling that the system will stay but that the plot will develop even more the ideas behind light and dark so that it won't be tiring to have to be nice or really mean all the time to fuel your powers.

[Emperor Devon]

So because you see someone killing puppies, you start killing puppies too? I thought Sith Lords were more capable to think for themselves other then following what others do. What you could learn from them is not attitude itself, but knowledge (ie how to have a better control of the Force or better saber styles.

 

You just provided the answer to your own question. Learning combat or control of the Force from the True Sith would cause most people to fall to the Dark Side. Look at Atris - she was a member of the council, tried to learn of the Sith by delving into their holocrons, and she fell to the Dark Side. It's actually rather repetitive.

As for what's so evil about their combat, almost all Sith, (and probably moreso the True Sith) use the Dark Side of the Force to fuel their attacks and channel their rage.

 

You simply assume that you're going to play as either the Exile or Revan. Yet, by your sayings, you've just added another reason why it's a bad idea to bring those characters back as the PC.

 

A bad idea? Most certainly not. Revan the Exile's stories have to be resolved - and it is usually best to play the character who's story will be resolved. What would it be like to be HK-47 for all of KOTOR I, and simply hearing about how Revan killed Malak?

Besides, what new character can their be? Even if you're on the Light Side, nearly all the Jedi are wiped out, and if you're on the Dark Side, they're gone for good. There's no one to train the new character, and I doubt LA would have your character be trained by the Sith and them redeem him/herself. Usually it's the other way around.

Besides, why would the new character have conviently stayed away from the events of KOTOR I and II?

[lukeiamyourdad]

You just provided the answer to your own question. Learning combat or control of the Force from the True Sith would cause most people to fall to the Dark Side. Look at Atris - she was a member of the council, tried to learn of the Sith by delving into their holocrons, and she fell to the Dark Side. It's actually rather repetitive.

 

Actually no. You're talking about falling to the Dark Side. I'm talking about someone who's already a Darksider. If a Sith doesn't like to kill puppies but sees another doing so, will he simply imitate the action? Quite unlikely. It wouldn't be in the Sith's caracteristics to just do random killing. Have you seen Uthar do some random killing? Yet his students were little thugs.

 

 

As for what's so evil about their combat, almost all Sith, (and probably moreso the True Sith) use the Dark Side of the Force to fuel their attacks and channel their rage.

 

Of course. But how could it be more evil? It stops at a certain point.

 

A bad idea? Most certainly not. Revan the Exile's stories have to be resolved - and it is usually best to play the character who's story will be resolved.

 

You're right. TSL turned out pretty bad with Revan's story unresolved. Hey, both of their stories (Revan and the Exile) are unresolved. Besides, there is a thread for this.

 

 

What would it be like to be HK-47 for all of KOTOR I, and simply hearing about how Revan killed Malak?

 

I have no idea what this is about.

 

Besides, what new character can their be? Even if you're on the Light Side, nearly all the Jedi are wiped out, and if you're on the Dark Side, they're gone for good.

 

Yoda and Obi-Wan survived the Jedi purge.

 

 

There's no one to train the new character, and I doubt LA would have your character be trained by the Sith and them redeem him/herself. Usually it's the other way around.

 

*points upwards*

 

Besides, why would the new character have conviently stayed away from the events of KOTOR I and II?

 

Disciple, Handmaiden, Atton, Mira and Bao-Dur stayed away from the events of KotOR I and became Jedi or Sith during TSL.

Something similar could be done with a new PC.

I'm just stating a possibility.

[Ultima Weapon 5]

I want kotor 3 to have the choice. That's what makes Kotor such a good game.

[Emperor Devon]

Actually no. You're talking about falling to the Dark Side. I'm talking about someone who's already a Darksider. If a Sith doesn't like to kill puppies but sees another doing so, will he simply imitate the action? Quite unlikely .

 

Maybe I will have to explain this in greater detail. The Sith draw upon the power of the Dark Side to fuel their power. Anyone who draws upon the Dark Side - even if they are a Jedi - will become corrupted by it. The more powerful the Sith is, the stronger their connection to the Force - and the Dark Side - is. The True Sith are far more powerful than the fake ones, and no doubt have a much greater command of the Dark Side.

Very skilled Jedi and Sith can learn from their opponents just by watching them. Look at what the Exile did to the Jedi Masters.

Now, for how all that is relevent.... Revan and the Exile will no doubt learn from the True Sith while fighting them, and either learn their techniques, and thus, drawing more heavily upon the Dark Side, or, faced with more powerful adversaries, they will draw upon the Dark Side's power even more, and thus corrupting them even further.

 

They most certainly won't watch the True Sith kill puppies and do the same...

 

Of course. But how could it be more evil? It stops at a certain point.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying there's a limit to how evil someone can become?

 

You're right. TSL turned out pretty bad with Revan's story unresolved. Hey, both of their stories (Revan and the Exile) are unresolved. Besides, there is a thread for this.

 

Not really. TSL was not about Revan, and since there will (hopefully) be a sequel, there was no need to completely resolve his story. It's like ESB - Vader was still alive and the Empire was still going strong when the film ended.

 

I have no idea what this is about.

 

You had been saying there should be a new character to play in KOTOR III, even though Revan and the Exile's stories will be resolved in that game. It would be like playing as HK for all of KOTOR I.

 

Yoda and Obi-Wan survived the Jedi purge.

 

That is not relevent to this discussion. Those were different circumstances, and they were facing weaker enemies.

 

The Jedi were wiped out in KOTOR II - how they started up again is beyond me. Maybe the Handmaiden and Mical used their sensitivity to the force and the knowledge on Telos to rebuild the Order.

 

Disciple, Handmaiden, Atton, Mira and Bao-Dur stayed away from the events of KotOR I and became Jedi or Sith during TSL.

Something similar could be done with a new PC.

I'm just stating a possibility.

 

True, but those party members are not individuals capable of changing the galaxy - a person like that can't really stay in the background for several wars, and if there is a new PC in KOTOR II, you would no doubt be playing as person who is capable of deciding the fate of the galaxy.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Maybe I will have to explain this in greater detail. The Sith draw upon the power of the Dark Side to fuel their power. Anyone who draws upon the Dark Side - even if they are a Jedi - will become corrupted by it. The more powerful the Sith is, the stronger their connection to the Force - and the Dark Side - is. The True Sith are far more powerful than the fake ones, and no doubt have a much greater command of the Dark Side.

Very skilled Jedi and Sith can learn from their opponents just by watching them. Look at what the Exile did to the Jedi Masters.

Now, for how all that is relevent.... Revan and the Exile will no doubt learn from the True Sith while fighting them, and either learn their techniques, and thus, drawing more heavily upon the Dark Side, or, faced with more powerful adversaries, they will draw upon the Dark Side's power even more, and thus corrupting them even further.

 

They most certainly won't watch the True Sith kill puppies and do the same...

 

Hmm...That does make sense to an extent. The problem is that in KotOR, using the Darkside alone is not enough to change your alignment. Or else, there would be a lot of Jedi Masters corrupted because of the number of times they used Force Storm.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying there's a limit to how evil someone can become?

 

Once you've committed mass genocide, killed puppies, drank blood from a fountain and corrupted little children, you end up having done everything.

 

 

Not really. TSL was not about Revan, and since there will (hopefully) be a sequel, there was no need to completely resolve his story. It's like ESB - Vader was still alive and the Empire was still going strong when the film ended.

 

I don't see why not. TSL was not fully about Revan, but a good part of it involves him. Anyway, what I meant was that people wanted to play Revan in TSL and now they want to play the Exile and/or Revan again. For some reason...

 

You had been saying there should be a new character to play in KOTOR III, even though Revan and the Exile's stories will be resolved in that game. It would be like playing as HK for all of KOTOR I.

 

You don't know how it would be resolved. There are ways to reselve their stories without having to play them. Obviously, TSL continued Revan's story without playing as Revan. We heard about him through dialogue only. I'm not saying it has to be done the same way with KotOR 3, I'm saying it's not impossible to bypass those "problems".

 

That is not relevent to this discussion. Those were different circumstances, and they were facing weaker enemies.

 

That is VERY relevent. The simple fact that two Jedi could escape a purge means that even back during the time of KotOR, one could've escaped.

Remember Jolee? He was lost on Kashyyyk until Revan found him.

It doesn't even have to be an important and very powerful Master, a Knight ca be enough to train you.

 

 

The Jedi were wiped out in KOTOR II - how they started up again is beyond me. Maybe the Handmaiden and Mical used their sensitivity to the force and the knowledge on Telos to rebuild the Order.

 

Scroll up.

 

 

True, but those party members are not individuals capable of changing the galaxy - a person like that can't really stay in the background for several wars, and if there is a new PC in KOTOR II, you would no doubt be playing as person who is capable of deciding the fate of the galaxy.

 

The Exile did stay in the dark for an entire conflict. I don't see how you cannot be on a very long exile or have somehow dissapeared for two wars. We don't know how long the events of KotOR3 are going to take place, but if we consider both the events of K1 and K2, it would be possible for you to just be a little kid when K1 started and the Jedi were busy and didn't notice you, a teenager during K2 which would mean that nobody could train you and finally an adult in K3, when you stumble upon and old hermit.

I'm just saying off the top of my head, but I have no problem if the story behind the PC's non-participation with galaxy events is credible.

 

You assume too much and are not using your imagination.