jedi3112 Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I think your eyesight should be able to detect cloaked units, possibly by disturbances in the terrain (suck as dust clouds). You generally can't see very far, unless the terrain is wide open. Or you might hear them. Still I don't know what the possibilities are with cloak, as it is not in the game. So that is quite important to find out. There is also the possibility of using Force sensitive units to detect cloak. They should feel the presence of life through the Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 Very true, however the Jem-Hadar use various heavy weapons as well, and they are even tougher than the Klingons, so they would probably be as close to an even match against Stormtroopers as possible, and I suspect that they would almost destroy a rebel infantry squad quite quickly. They are also cloned, with the only two downsides being their addiction to Ketracel White, and their short life-span (max 6yrs I think). They also use cloaked hovering mines (can't remeber their name), that are incredibly deadly. I do not believe that the Feds have very heavy handheld weaponary, and I suspect that the Klingons do have heavy weaponary, although they do not use it as much since they prefer melee combat. If you wanted to, you could incorporate the Ketracel White into the game by say, having it be part of a troop training facility for those units or something (a prerequisite for building Jemmies). What "heavy weapons" did the Jem Hadar soldiers employ? When I checked they still only had hand held weapons (basically small arms and knives, and by "small arms" I mean a pistol, a rifle, etc). The Klingons had mortars in one episode of DS9. Sure they (JM) had the "natural ability to shroud" (a type of personal cloak) but that's hardly a "heavy weapon" (and scanners can beat it apparently it only fools the naked eye). Those mines you're talking about are the "Houdinis" (randomly teleporting cloaked anti-personel mines). Again, that's not really a "heavy weapon" like artillery or a combat vehicle... The reliance on melee combat is a distinct disadvantage, since it means you have to get close to use it. If your troops are smartly commanded, you just set up position and mow them down, like the troops in WWI charging machinegun nests... In game you could fudge it a little more of course. A "heavy weapon" isn't a handheld device. But anyway, you could talk about the various handheld weapons that the Federation has like the Type I and Type II phasers, the various phaser rifles, the "rocket launcher" type weapon that Worf happened to have with him in Insurrection (rather weak, but good range). In the original pilot for TOS ("The Cage", also featured in The Menagerie for obvious reasons) they had a laser cannon that was powered by a Starship in orbit which otherwise seemed rather powerful compared to anything else they had at the time. TOS had a mortar, only seen in one episode. Enterprise featured "stun grenades" but one could argue they were only used then because their "phase pistol" stuns weren't very advanced (or not). The MACO's carried early pulse phaser rifles (they also had phase rifles, an early version of phaser rifles, in Enterprise). But anyway, we're still talking small arms (carriable by a single trooper) in all these cases, and still talking infantry. If it were just infantry vs. infantry it wouldn't be so bad, but the general lack of vehicles is a major problem. You have "hoppers" for moving troops and the Argo (dune buggy), that's about it, and maybe if you used shuttles in a support role. Hence the need to invent new units for the ST ground forces... the more they would seem to "fit" the better, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vyraeth Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 To help with unit creation/design for the MOD, here are two websites with a decent amount of Star Trek military information: http://www.ditl.org AND http://www.treknology.org. The treknology website has grounds units, but most are non-canon, they do, however, conform to canonical standards. Hope those links help! -- Vyraeth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 Yeah, non-canon firepower figures can be ignored (I believe DITL differentiates between canon and speculation), essentially we need something that works for THIS game. But that could be a good source for ideas on how to fill in the gaps. None of this crazy "turbolasers would go right through Federation ships without damage" stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 That alternate reality from Trek you mentioned, Kurgan? It's now in the Star Wars universe too! Read my fic! Anyway, I think it's a great idea. I would love to be able to pwn a star destroyer with Voyager or the Enterprise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 Well I think "pwn" is too strong a word in this case, but we'll let it slide. Such a small ship probably couldn't take on an ISD on its own, even in this game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vyraeth Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Well, I gave those links just as references, I.E. conceptual ideas for units. It'd be pretty hard to model this game after a realistic interpretation of the two universes (calculations from on screen evidence -- yes there's people that calculate it -- show a strong indication that Star Wars ships have powers well beyond anything in Star Trek), since Star Trek would be wiped out in the first few seconds. :-D. Rather, whoever is working on this MOD will have to figure out a proper balancing scheme, but right now, I just hope we fill in the gaps for all the Trek races included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 I agree. Credit should of course be given to the folks on those sites who came up with the ideas in question if they are used. I agree, this would probably be "fudged" in favor of gameplay balance rather than "realism" based on calculations from canon. I mean after the mod is finished (if it's ever started and finished) you COULD sit down and make your own version that was more "realistic" by adjusting the stats. Just for fun... But the main work is creating the models and textures with the new faction, once you've decided which ones you're going to make and how they'll work. I still think the easiest way to do it would be just to combine the Trek "races" together into one side. Unless you wanted to do a "Star Trek Total Conversion" where everything was changed into something from Star Trek, which would be a whole different animal. But I think ST vs SW is just a cooler idea. So somebody get those former ST vs SW modders on the phone and get them in here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Well I think "pwn" is too strong a word in this case, but we'll let it slide. Such a small ship probably couldn't take on an ISD on its own, even in this game! I've seen that argument before somewhere.... the Trekkies won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vyraeth Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I thought it would be cooler to have multiple sides involved in the conflict. Get the Imperials, Rebs, Feds, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians (or whomever) in one big free for all (assuming the game is moddable to that faction extent). This would also add expanded capability to the skirmish mode, where players could play just ST battles if they wanted, or Empire vs (spinoff -- not just Fed) battles, etc. Yeah, it's more work, but it would make the mod far more worthwhile in the long run. Although, I suppose just to start it off, you could do Empire versus Federation -- since those two sides are the first thought to clash, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted January 31, 2006 Author Share Posted January 31, 2006 I've seen that argument before somewhere.... the Trekkies won. I'd like to see it. From where I'm standing, even if the ISD somehow never fought back, the Enterprise (E? D?) or Voyager would simply run out of ordinance before the ship was destroyed (and I don't mean completely vaporized, because that would be impossible for the tiny ship, rather I mean unable to fight or escape... I mean sure they could ram the bridge with self destruct on, but even that action would not stop the ship since they could still continue to fight, though losing your primary bridge crew certainly isn't anything to sneeze at, and that's all assuming they can even break through the shields beforehand). The rationale people use to defend the incredible power of the ISD has to do with its surviving asteroid hits and destroying asteroids so easily (plus there's numbers stated in official sources, but I'm saying based on direct observation of the movies alone). It's sheer size alone compared to the common Trek ships makes a big difference! I'm not wishing to get into a numbers war on ST vs SW, but go see for yourself for the size comparison. Here's a pic I made from that very site for easier comparison. And yes, that tiny blob in the upper right is Voyager! I suppose you might try to argue that Voyager has taken on large ships before, like Borg cubes, but remember how nerfed they had to be for Voyager to be able to take them on (it took entire FLEETS to beat Borg cubes previously in the show), and in almost all cases they used some kind of technobabble to win anyway, which can't really be used in a discussion like this, or else you'd have to give that benefit to the Empire as well (besides, who's to say they know as much about the Empire as the Borg, whom they've been fighting for decades). In a real fight, the ISD is bristling with turbolasers, each with enough power to disable an unshielded ship the size of the Enterprise-D quite easily in one shot (notice how they did just that to the Tantive IV, which is about the size of Voyager). Forget what you've seen in Rogue Squadron and the X-Wing games. A single snub fighter cannot take down a capital ship in combat unless the people on the capital ship commit suicide! In the movies it took other capital ships and/or concentrated bombardment by bombers to do that kind of damage. Likewise an exploration warship like the Enterprise couldn't do it alone. And if their goal is simply destruction, target their warp core, boom! The ISD also has tractor beam projectors, ion cannons and can launch fighters. Perhaps a fleet could stand a better chance, but anyway, this is really a job for the game, not debaters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted January 31, 2006 Author Share Posted January 31, 2006 I thought it would be cooler to have multiple sides involved in the conflict. Get the Imperials, Rebs, Feds, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians (or whomever) in one big free for all (assuming the game is moddable to that faction extent). This would also add expanded capability to the skirmish mode, where players could play just ST battles if they wanted, or Empire vs (spinoff -- not just Fed) battles, etc. Yeah, it's more work, but it would make the mod far more worthwhile in the long run. Although, I suppose just to start it off, you could do Empire versus Federation -- since those two sides are the first thought to clash, etc. Well once you create the new unit (i.e: rather than just replacing the in-game ones with Star Trek ones) you could use the level editing capability (when we get it) to create new levels with those Trek units, and thus your Trek only missions or whatever. But see most people are going to want to see what happens with those other factions. So you'll need to do all the popular matchups. Borg vs. Rebels, Dominion vs. Empire, united Alpha/Beta Quadrants vs. the Empire, Alpha/Beta/Gamma/Delta quadrants vs. the Empire, etc. It'd be like doing a Marvel Vs. DC grudge match and only getting to see Superman vs. Hulk! You've got to eventually do the other stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthes Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 sounds like an interesting idea well, i am not that deep into Star Trek, but i am also no uberb00n if we would concentrate on the space fight, the federation has no chance against the empire / new republic (even the old republic) maybe the cloaking devices are quite helpful as there is nothing similar in Star Wars (at least not in the movies) beaming could enable hit and run attacks but i think that the borg would have a quite good chance they could lose one or two cubes due to the death star but if they get used to it, no chance all in all, you guys have forgotten one big thing the almighty force could a borg stand against a lightsaber? maybe, but let's not forget lightning and grip and mind control and as there are no small ships (except the shuttles), they couldn't even attack the vulnerability of the death star or what would they do against enemy fighter squadrons (like the X,Y,A,B-Wing?) doesn't matter, they don't even have something against the good ol force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhaosNite Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Ok im somewhat of a Trekkie, and in the EU of star trek, most starships are equipped with marine corps and fighters. which makes them someone of a formidable force. the sovereign class alone could take out the heavy frigates with 1/2 torpedos and its phaser banks could easily target the fighters, but might be hard to actually use them. Now there are the Jem Hadar fighters of the Dominion who could infact be the leading force against rebel/imp fighters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakatomi2010 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Well, I'll throw in my two cents... To make this sort of thing feasible we need some sort of tie in, I mean we can't just say "Ta-Da, Star Wars vs Star Trek"... No... So, since Star Wars is a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, we can build on that... So... Eliminate the 'Long Time Ago' factor and we're left with "Far, far away"... With that said, depending on what the game can allow, we could create a "planet" and call it a wormhole, with the ability to build a space station around it, this wormhole would lead to our galaxy, which on the other end would be an area which another space station could be built (See Deep Space Nine), and restrict movement so that all intergalactic travels MUST go through that point... (Man I'd enjoy writing the story on this, mission by mission....) Now we have the universes connected... Then comes the balancing act... Because of how complex the Star Wars ships are, they take longer to build, this is proven through Rebellion, so keep Star Wars ship priced higher and take longer to build, while the Star Trek vessels would take less time and be cheaper do to their ease of construction... Next part? The forces involved. The two universes pretty much have diplomacies inorder to make things happen... So, if the Federation and the Empire were to meet, we'd need some kind of ground that makes them have to have a war for inter-galactic domination... The Empire generally views non-humans as slaves or low on thespecies chain, except some such as Thrawn, and so on... So, Empire meets Federation, Federation is an alliance of planets of humans and non-humans... Empire doesn't like this and goes to war on two fronts, againt the Rebel alliance, and the Federation Star Trek Universe... We will assume the Emperor is alive at this time and that he is the driving force of this war... As the Empire begins invading the Star Trek galaxy, the Empire outsources some of the jobs relating to the harvesting of money, and such, to the Hutts, who contract jobs out to smugglers, who encounter and bring back Ferengi, who piss off the Hutts who really begin to back the Empire, as the Ferengi now back the Federation/their own cause..... As the Rebels send a fleet to investigate they discover the worm hole on their own get attack by cloaked Romulans... The Rebels forge a temporary alliance with the Empire combining both Imperial and Alliance forces in a joint attack on the Star Trek galaxy... With the Romulan scouts being destroyed the Romulans fight the Federation and its cohorts for control of the worm hole, while eventually giving in and forging their own temporary alliance against the Star Wars Universe.... Enter the Borg.... As the Star Wars galaxy pushes their way deeper and deeper into the Star Trek galaxy they finally encounter traces of the borg, who have gained an interest in this battle and begin to assimilate both sides... And so on... Species 8472 would be kept out of all of this because although they're neat and would give the Star Wars empire a run for their money, they would not align themselves with either side, so if they WERE included, they'd need to be the pirates, where they go in **** all over the fight and leave.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comrade-max Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 **** the storyline, who needs one. Federation vs Empire/Federation vs Rebellion simple as poo. You could then go on to add the borg as a forth faction as it would be interesting to use. Balance the sides forget the 'real' figures i would work on this mod (coder) i am experienced with Cnc Generals ini and can do most of EAW xml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Gaarni Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Wouldn't the Federation join on the rebel side and not the Imperial side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CondorFalco Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 I would have thought so. Although I have seen a couple of mods that have Feds vs Rebels vs Imperials (ie free-for-all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comrade-max Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 well maybe in the campains (if any) and galactic conquest but in skirmish it should be free for all. there need be no story there need be work models etc to get people interested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rderveloy Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 A simular mod was created for the Star Trek Armada games. It'll be good if you can pull off a well balanced game especially since the Star Trek technology is supposed to be far more advanced than Star Wars. Best of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Chimaera Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 They just announced a new Star Trek RTS game called 'Star Trek: Legacy'. Here is the link: http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/startreklegacy/index.html so I hope that this can please you trekkies. *btw, I think that Empire at War will kick the above games' ass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreenGoblin Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Based on? Anyway, that game looks good to, it sounds like it'll be more in-depth than Armada and the ships will have more staying power, especially interested in the idea of spanning the entire period between Enterprise to post-Nemesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CondorFalco Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Yeah, there have been rumours of it being a ST:FC and Armada cross. I just wish the graphics were much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkodeon Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 I'd like to see it. From where I'm standing, even if the ISD somehow never fought back, the Enterprise (E? D?) or Voyager would simply run out of ordinance before the ship was destroyed (and I don't mean completely vaporized, because that would be impossible for the tiny ship, rather I mean unable to fight or escape... I mean sure they could ram the bridge with self destruct on, but even that action would not stop the ship since they could still continue to fight, though losing your primary bridge crew certainly isn't anything to sneeze at, and that's all assuming they can even break through the shields beforehand). The rationale people use to defend the incredible power of the ISD has to do with its surviving asteroid hits and destroying asteroids so easily (plus there's numbers stated in official sources, but I'm saying based on direct observation of the movies alone). It's sheer size alone compared to the common Trek ships makes a big difference! I'm not wishing to get into a numbers war on ST vs SW, but go see for yourself for the size comparison. Here's a pic I made from that very site for easier comparison. And yes, that tiny blob in the upper right is Voyager! I suppose you might try to argue that Voyager has taken on large ships before, like Borg cubes, but remember how nerfed they had to be for Voyager to be able to take them on (it took entire FLEETS to beat Borg cubes previously in the show), and in almost all cases they used some kind of technobabble to win anyway, which can't really be used in a discussion like this, or else you'd have to give that benefit to the Empire as well (besides, who's to say they know as much about the Empire as the Borg, whom they've been fighting for decades). In a real fight, the ISD is bristling with turbolasers, each with enough power to disable an unshielded ship the size of the Enterprise-D quite easily in one shot (notice how they did just that to the Tantive IV, which is about the size of Voyager). Forget what you've seen in Rogue Squadron and the X-Wing games. A single snub fighter cannot take down a capital ship in combat unless the people on the capital ship commit suicide! In the movies it took other capital ships and/or concentrated bombardment by bombers to do that kind of damage. Likewise an exploration warship like the Enterprise couldn't do it alone. And if their goal is simply destruction, target their warp core, boom! The ISD also has tractor beam projectors, ion cannons and can launch fighters. Perhaps a fleet could stand a better chance, but anyway, this is really a job for the game, not debaters. You are forgetting that in 'Our' galaxy, the Star Trek galaxy (I refer to 'ours' because Star Trek is set in our galaxy...etc.) lasers are COMPLETELY obsolete. If you really wanted a critical, scientific look at it, read the 'story' on that dtl.org or whatever...>_>...about the fight between Federation and Empire. The Federation has superior technology, centuries ahead of the Star Wars universe. Why? Four words. 'A Long time Ago...' Yeah, so seeing as how Star Trek is in the future, and Star Wars is in the past, I'm going to have to agree with that story. But on the same note, Star Trek universe would lose a lot of ground since it doesn't have enough numbers to combat the hundreds of thousands of Imperial/Republic ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Vaner Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Really a great idea ! It was always my dream to mix the two universe so where's the link to download it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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