TV News Film Ignites New Muslim Outrage

[toms]

Australian television news footage showing U.S. soldiers burning the bodies of two suspected Taliban militants has ignited another uproar in the Muslim world. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack told reporters Thursday that the footage, shown on Australia's SBS network was "very troublesome." He promised an investigation, "and if there is, in fact, wrongdoing that was found, then those who are responsible for that wrongdoing will be held to account." The footage, part of a feature presented on the Dateline magazine program (not connected with NBC's program of the same name) was taken by freelance journalist Stephen Dupont, embedded with the U.S. 173rd Airborne Brigade in Afghanistan. Dupont reported that the U.S. troops were apparently using the bodies to provoke a Taliban attack, taunting them in a broadcast by announcing, "Attention Taliban, you are all cowardly dogs. ... You allowed your fighters to be laid down facing west and burned. You are too scared to retrieve their bodies. This just proves you are the lady boys we always believed you to be." In the Muslim religion, burning bodies is regarded as an act of desecration.

 

troublesome indeed...

[TK-8252]

*Sigh* I guess these troops are just asking for an IED to detonate under their humvee.

 

Just more fuel to the fire...

[Kurgan]

I notice that whenever something like this happens, somebody always charges whomever release such videos (showing US troops committing outrages or atrocities, or whatnot) as the enemy, rather than the persons committing the acts. They'll say "this only puts our troops in danger!" (subtle message: support our troops, right or wrong!), and demand that there be better security to prevent such videos from becoming public (rather than calling for an end to the behavior).

 

I anticipate that will happen this time as well. I can just see it now...

 

So in anticipation of such a response, I'm going to say, THESE are the guys putting our troops in danger, the ones who do crap like this. If you don't want it on video for the world to see, don't do it! Nothing that is hidden won't be brought to light eventually...

 

For once I'd like to see the commanding officers and higher ups take the reponsibility for the actions of their men and punished. Far too often the military "looks out for their own" by making some privates take the fall, sheltering the big wigs who put them up to it at worst, or at best, looked the other way.

[El Sitherino]

I smell a lack of dishonorable discharge in the horizon. And McCormack's a douchebag.

[ShadowTemplar]

1) Stupid, stupid, stupid... America never was good at making propaganda...

 

2) Bust the slimes out for dishonourable treatment of corpses.

 

3) Tell the so-called 'Muslim World' that we can't take all their silly religious taboos seriously.

 

I mean, seriously... I can understand why people would be in 'uproar' over something like Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib, but freaking out over a bunch of pathetic n00bs mutilating corpses or cutting up the Qu'ran... \sigh. Some parts of the world need a reality check.

[Cosmos Jack]

There is a reason I don't post on this forum anymore, but every once in awhile I see something that gets my attention. The forum is about a far left as you can get. I don't care much for the right either mind you. I hate Religious freaks as much as I hate anti war retards.

 

In the Muslim religion, burning bodies is regarded as an act of desecration.

 

troublesome indeed...

To think these are the same people that strap blocks of C4 to their @ss and walk on a crowded buses to blow themselves up. Should I really care what they think is desecration. To bad the Christians aren't as fanatical anymore I would love to see Christian/Jew suicide bombers doing counter attacks. It would make good TV and we could kill two birds with one stone. Maybe with luck they would all blow themselves up in a few years.

 

*Sigh* I guess these troops are just asking for an IED to detonate under their humvee....

Or maybe they are tired of said IEDs and really don't give a "F" what they do to these people. Maybe if you and a few of your good bodies had to go over there and then you had to see their heads get blown off. Maybe you would be throwing some bodies on the fire yourself. Hell maybe they are just to dam tired to dig a hole for them. Burning is quicker, easer way of disposing of dead corpses, and while your are at you can tick off their bodies too.

 

So in anticipation of such a response, I'm going to say, THESE are the guys putting our troops in danger, the ones who do crap like this. If you don't want it on video for the world to see, don't do it! Nothing that is hidden won't be brought to light eventually...

They are in danger 24/7 doing stuff like this is negligible. I would say if you don't want stuff like this on video don't let the people taking the dam footage there. I don't really care for journalists they make all buddy buddy with soldiers then turn around and say "You know what they did and look I have pictures!" They should tell these guys to go stand in a open field and let them know when they find a sniper.

 

For once I'd like to see the commanding officers and higher ups take the reponsibility for the actions of their men and punished. Far too often the military "looks out for their own" by making some privates take the fall, sheltering the big wigs who put them up to it at worst, or at best, looked the other way.

You know what I would like see the Commanding Officers saying? "We did it, I told them to do it, and I'll tell them to do it again. So get the "F" over it or come fight the dam war yourself." If the media would quit trying to demonize us and start demonizing the enemy nobody would be courts marshaled in the 1st FN place. Right now their media is demonizing us and our media is demonizing us and the guys planting the IEDs or killing people going to vote are the heroes.

 

No matter what the US Military has done we are by leaps and bounds far more humane to our enemies then they are to us. As far as I'm concerned what goes on over there isn't anyone's business. They aren't dragging women and children out into the street and executing them systematically. "That's what the people they are fighting do from time to time." If it makes them feel better about the friends they lost or the close call they had themselves to happen to point the dead bodies of the men who did it the wrong direction and set them on fire more power to them. "Do you need light Man"

 

As for this...

1) Stupid, stupid, stupid... America never was good at making propaganda...

 

2) Bust the slimes out for dishonourable treatment of corpses.

 

3) Tell the so-called 'Muslim World' that we can't take all their silly religious taboos seriously.

 

I mean, seriously... I can understand why people would be in 'uproar' over something like Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib, but freaking out over a bunch of pathetic n00bs mutilating corpses or cutting up the Qu'ran... \sigh. Some parts of the world need a reality check.

I will buy you a ticket if you want to go to Afghanistan, pick up a Ak, and start shooting Americans if you really want to go let me know. Maybe we can get a hole bunch of you guys together and you can go help the Taliban. If you are lucky maybe you can get to burn some US Solders sit around the fire and sing songs about your goat and how fun it is to beat your wife for not washing your goat.

[ShadowTemplar]

Welcome back CJ. And in fine form I see.

 

The reason that this place is "about a(s) far left as you get," is that - for some odd reason - all the neocons ran away. As far as your comment goes, I specifically said that I found the whole 'uproar' thing unjustified and ridiculous. Unfortunately that doesn't make it go away, and as long as clergy keeps pandering to the prejudices of a large segment of the world's population, pissing of said clergy is - while highly rewarding - hardly the brightest (or healthiest for that matter) of all possible strategies...

 

And, IMHO, proper military courtesy includes respect for the enemy dead, even when they don't deserve it. And i hardly think I like the idea of having guys running around with live firearms who cannot maintain at least the pretense of civility and a bare minimum of military courtesy, at least until the fecal matter hits the rotating air impeller. What happens in the heat of battle is one thing. Deliberate dishonourable conduct outside of combat is something else entirely.

[toms]

There is a reason I don't post on this forum anymore, but every once in awhile I see something that gets my attention. The forum is about a far left as you can get.

If you think people here are left wing then you have been hanging around too much of the right wing side of american politics. ardly anyone here could be considered extremely left wing... especially not by the standards of many other countries.

The number of NeoCons does seem to have decreased as the war has gotten worse and Bush's popularity has waned though...

 

To think these are the same people that strap blocks of C4 to their @ss and walk on a crowded buses to blow themselves up. Should I really care what they think is desecration. To bad the Christians aren't as fanatical anymore I would love to see Christian/Jew suicide bombers doing counter attacks. It would make good TV and we could kill two birds with one stone. Maybe with luck they would all blow themselves up in a few years.

Oh, now i see why you think of us as extreme leftists...

 

You do realise that the "Muslim World" is more than just 20 suicide bombers don't you?

Not all 1.6 billion muslims on the world strap on bombs and blow themselves up. Pretty much all 1.6 billion Muslims in the world believe burning bodies and the quran is desecration.

 

Personally I'd rather have the 1.599999999999 billion muslims who don't blow themselves up on my side (or at least neutral) rather than pissing them off and building support for the suicide bombers by doing stupid stuff like this.

 

Considering the fuss that christians in america make about things like abortion, stem cells, halloween and harry potter being against their religion its hardly fair to complain when those from another religion happen to have their own religious beliefs is it?

 

Somehow I suspect you wouldn't be impressed by people burning the american flag? maybe i'm mistaken...

 

if you want christian soldiers/suicide bombers then you just need to look at certain parts of africa...

[riceplant]

Frankly, I couldn't care less what people bring down upon themselves. I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. However, most Americans aren't doing these things, and most some Americans disagree with those who do, so that's a bit bothering. Most of all, though, is that the Muslim nutters who respond to this kind of thing are even worse at discriminating between those who are 'wronging' them and those who aren't than 'us'. And Cosmos Jack, I can see how you'd think we're far-left, as compared to you, we probably are.

[TK-8252]

I honestly couldn't care less if troops want to burn the fighters they kill.

 

HOWEVER, don't let it be VIDEO TAPED! Why? I'll tell you why: because this is EXACTLY what the terrorists use as propaganda to recruits. "Look what they're doing to your muslim brethren!" It's the same situation as releasing the Abu Ghraib pictures, etc. Just more fuel for the terrorists to add to the fire.

 

And I don't see how this stance is far-left at all. I just don't want our troops put in any more danger than they already are. The right feels the same way.

[El Sitherino]

Thing is these were only suspects, hell we don't even treat proven perps like this, doing this is not only unethical but unnecessary and illegal.

[Kurgan]

1) Stupid, stupid, stupid... America never was good at making propaganda...

 

2) Bust the slimes out for dishonourable treatment of corpses.

 

3) Tell the so-called 'Muslim World' that we can't take all their silly religious taboos seriously.

 

I mean, seriously... I can understand why people would be in 'uproar' over something like Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib, but freaking out over a bunch of pathetic n00bs mutilating corpses or cutting up the Qu'ran... \sigh. Some parts of the world need a reality check.

 

 

How QUICKLY people forget. Remember how "outraged" Americans were after the mutilation of the bodies of civilian contractors in Iraq, what, last year?

 

People were ANGRY and screamed for BLOOD and punishment, etc etc. So it's not just these "crazy backward middle-easterners" who take the desecration of dead bodies seriously.

 

And plenty of Americans get pissed off when they see their own countrymen burning the American flag for some political reason, much less some angry foreignors doing it (and the flag isn't even held as a religious object! though it might as well be to many people!).

 

So I understand where these folks are coming from. We're no different, in many ways.

 

Most likely they'll get a slap on the wrist, or some poor private will be left holding the bag while everybody else gets of scot-free, including the idiots who thought this was a good idea (don't tell me some higher up or "intelligence officer" didn't put them up to it!).

 

Mutilating corpses is an old war standby. People know it "works" (in pissing off/scaring your enemies) so it continues to be done. In the middle ages we put people's heads on pikes and hung their bodies out to be picked apart by crows.

[Kurgan]

I honestly couldn't care less if troops want to burn the fighters they kill.

 

HOWEVER, don't let it be VIDEO TAPED! Why? I'll tell you why: because this is EXACTLY what the terrorists use as propaganda to recruits. "Look what they're doing to your muslim brethren!" It's the same situation as releasing the Abu Ghraib pictures, etc. Just more fuel for the terrorists to add to the fire.

 

And I don't see how this stance is far-left at all. I just don't want our troops put in any more danger than they already are. The right feels the same way.

 

I rest my case with what I said earlier on this and other comments. Wow, I must have Jedi powers to have predicted this response!

 

How about the idiots don't do this crap in the first place, that way there will be nothing to video tape! Don't shoot the messenger.

[El Sitherino]

I agree with both of Kurgan's posts (heh, shocking?). There's been a really large case of double-standards going around just because these guys were suspected Taliban members. And considering who are allies against the Taliban are, I see a really weird twisted sense of priorities.

[TK-8252]

Don't get me wrong here, Kurgan. I'm not saying I support their decision to burn the bodies. It's illegal and they deserve to be punished for doing so. But I don't see why the footage needed to go public so terrorists can get their hands on it for propaganda material. It's just like Abu Ghraib; of course they shouldn't be abusing prisoners, but we shouldn't be putting our boys serving in Iraq in danger just to expose the crimes of a few wayward soldiers. Let the FBI handle it, not the public.

 

We all know that the terrorists don't really care to go after just the individual soldiers who burned the bodies... they'll attack any soldier (or Iraqi civilians, women, children) just to get their revenge. I don't think it's worth more innocent lives just to expose the guilty to the public.

[El Sitherino]

... Except it's only because Abu Ghraib was shown publicly that anything was done about it. If we didn't publicize things like this, we'd have atrocities happening comparable to the kind that happened in WW2 and Vietnam.

 

If/when our soldiers are attacked out of vengeance it'll serve to make everyone think twice about what they do. People require dramatic events to push them into action.

[TK-8252]

Sadly, you're right about that...

 

I guess this kind of stuff is just inevitable.

[ShadowTemplar]

How QUICKLY people forget. Remember how "outraged" Americans were after the mutilation of the bodies of civilian contractors in Iraq, what, last year?

 

Never said that. I just said that if you can whip up a country-wide (never mind continent-wide) outrage over a couple of creeps mutilating a couple of dead bodies or burning a flag, then your society needs a reality check (although the flag is actually a little more understandable, since it is a powerful symbol of sovereignty). Doubly so if your primary gripe is with the fact that it counts as desecration in you particular stripe of religion.

 

We all know that the terrorists don't really care to go after just the individual soldiers who burned the bodies... they'll attack any soldier

 

Let's get the terminology right here: If you attack a legitimate military target during wartime, you are not a terrorist. If you attack it in an illegitimate way (e.g. by dressing soldiers up as a civilians), you're war criminals.

[TK-8252]

But who exactly are we at war with? Terrorists? Insurgents? A legitimate insurgency doesn't blow up school children, they attack the military targets who they're rebelling against. But the daily attacks you hear about are against innocent Iraqi civilians.

 

I dunno. Terrorists, insurgents, war criminals, all the same to me in this case...

[Kurgan]

Let's get the terminology right here: If you attack a legitimate military target during wartime, you are not a terrorist. If you attack it in an illegitimate way (e.g. by dressing soldiers up as a civilians), you're war criminals.

 

Agreed. US Soldiers are valid military targets. Obviously as an American, I don't want "my" soldiers being killed, period. But let's face facts, that's what you do in a war... attack the other side's soldiers and kill them. Duh!

 

What's going on in Iraq is a guerilla war. The "insurrgents" (guerillas) are attacking US soldiers, and they're fighting back, etc. The situation in Afgahninstan is surely similar.

 

In both cases you also have "terrorism" alongside. As I understand terrorism (not in the propagandist real politik sense of "what they do to us, not what we do to them"), military or guerrilla military attacking unarmed civilians in order to promote some kind of goal. So when a suicide bomber blows up a marketplace = terrorism. When a suicide bomber blows up a military base = not terrorism. When US soldiers shoot some insurrgents in a gun battle = not terrorism. When US soldiers shoot up or bomb some random neighborhood = terrorism.

 

It's true, without reporting of these incidents when our troops "screw up" (wow, makes it sound so mild, like they put the wrong tires on the Humvee, anyway), it just encourages this kind of thing to continue, and we lose any "moral highground" essential to "winning" the "hearts and minds" (as the saying goes) of the people we're supposed to be fighting for.

 

Sure, exposing our military's misdeeds defeats any possible "propaganda campaign of striking terror into the enemy" our side might be waging. But aren't we the one's who periodically condemn waging war in such a fashion?

 

Besides, I'm sure when our soldiers torture some guy or rape some woman or shoot some kid, the "terrorists" (and enemy guerillas) have spies who find out about that kind of stuff anyway. The cameras just bring that information to the people, both over there and over here. We have a right to know what our tax dollars are being spent on and what our kids are dying for.

 

My cousin and a former classmate were over there, and the brother of a former classmate. Would I be thrilled to learn they were putting their lives at stake so we could do crap like this? Doesn't make me exactly want to salute the flag with pride and say "God Bless America." So there's the everyday aspect...

 

Such crap makes a person want to go through the parking lot and rip off all those silly yellow magnets off the back of everyone's SUV and toss them in the dumpster. Okay, I'm done ranting now...

 

Edit: fixed some typos

[Kurgan]

Just as not all US soldiers are war criminals (though when war crimes happen you've got to question what leadership approved or overlooked such acts... privates don't just do this crap on their own without some kind of leniency or orders in place), not all guerillas (insurgents) are terrorists and not all terrorists are guerillas.

 

Guerilla:

A member of an irregular, usually indigenous military or paramilitary unit operating in small bands in occupied territory to harass and undermine the enemy, as by surprise raids.

 

The way I see it, a lot of people are angry about US troops occupying Iraq (or Afgahnistan or any other unstable country you can think of where US troops are maintaining an occupation). This means that terrorist cells, insurrgent guerrillas, angry individuals, anyone who wants US soldiers out will take advantage. They need not be working together in order to accomplish this goal. That's why its often problematic to link the "war on terror" with the war in Iraq, even though some of the people who are fighting the US occupation are more than likely linked to "the terrorists" (Al Qaeda? though they're more likely to be found in Afgahnistan). I think in a lot of people's minds they all swirl together into one, because it's far easier to think of this in conventional terms as a war between "two sides." Us vs. "them." It's not that simple. The Taliban for example, was a political (and religious) party. Taliban wasn't synonymous with terrorist, but surely some Taliban are now terrorists. Some Americans have been terrorists (Timothy McVeigh for example), but that doesn't mean all are. Still, in the popular imagination and in political rhetoric it's easy to get confused.

 

One could argue our problem in Iraq and other places is that our troops periodically kill "the wrong people." In Vietnam we should have learned that in an occupation or civil war (is there a civil war going on in Iraq? there was/is in Afgahnistan at least last I heard but it's been awhile, since Iraq dominates the news) it's difficult to tell who's who (since we're talking an indigenous population, not necessarily an organized uniformed military representing the will of a single nation). Frustration sets in, and soon random people are rounded up and tortured or shootings occur and raises public ire against the occupiers (moreso than usual). This is useful for the guerillas of course, because by blending with the local population it's very difficult to weed them out. Of course that difficulty doesn't excuse war crimes by our side either. In many incidents in history (like the My Lai massacre) its clear that our side knew what they were doing was wrong, but did it anyway.

 

Some will say "well that happens in every war, deal with it." Of course that assumes we can't improve in any way. If that kind of thinking were true, we'd still be mass raping villages, burning them to the ground and sowing the ground with salt.

[Cosmos Jack]

And Cosmos Jack, I can see how you'd think we're far-left, as compared to you, we probably are.

Oh give me a break from the 1st time I posted on this forum if you aren't chanting "Down with America" you are all, but banned and sometimes that for having a different frame of thought. All this forum is a collection of Non Americans and disgruntled American kids in a tug of war to see who can trash the US the most.

 

There really isn't much discussion here you either agree with the majority or whatever you have to say is wrong.

 

As for the war again.

 

There are three kinds of people in a war. The people who fight and die. The people who talk about it. The people who watch and keep their mouths shut.

 

It's kind of like a Ball game you have the spectators saying "why the hell didn't so & so do this or that", but they haven't the skill, ability, or the dedication it takes in the first place to be on the field. That's basically who all of you are. Then there are the ones who buy the tickets and are happy to just watch the game. I'm not there and don't know what the solders go through. I can say this they are all better people then myself. I will never volunteer again to take the chance of getting killed for people like the ones on this forum. That idea almost makes me sick to think about.

[edlib]

Criticizing the current administration and it's policies is hardly the same as saying "Down with America!" If it wasn't true in the Clinton years, then it's not true now.

 

When American troops hit the ground in Afghanistan, I was about as gung-ho in my support of the troops and their mission as anybody.

 

When they were sent to Iraq, I was mostly confused as to why they were going there. Still am. (And trust me, I've heard the entire multitude of various explanations as to why we need to be there. None of them really ring true to me, no matter how hard I try to think about them and see them from the other point of view.) That doesn't mean I don't support the troops. Personally, I want to see every single one of them make it home, as soon as possible, and all totally unscathed.

 

My personal feeling: I think if we had taken all the troops that are currently treading water in Iraq and had set them in Afghanistan and finished the job properly (Osama, anyone?) there before starting another (as I see it) ill-conceived fight on a second front, I think America would be all the better for it.

 

That's just how I feel about it. Does that make me an America basher? Perhaps in your eyes. But even if so, why exactly should I stay quiet about it? Why is it a better thing to "... watch and keep my mouth shut" as actions unfold that go against all of my beliefs and better judgements? That simply wouldn't be true to myself. Is it now to be considered un-American to hold a contradictory opinion? Or is it simply more patriotic to sit on your hands and bite your tongue if you do?

 

Or should we all just keep our opinions to ourselves only if they contradict the official administration policy? Seems to me there are counties with policies that enforce that very thing like that out there today... but it appears we are tooling up to go after all of them for being in "The Axis Of Evil."

 

Personally, I can see nothing more patriotic than wishing for American troops to get home as quickly as possible, all in one piece, than being overseas fighting in a war that I just can't make myself believe in, no matter how hard I try.

 

But that just might be me.

 

When I hear of troops taking part in these kinds of situations, it almost makes me sick... simply because I know it's prolonging the conflict, creating even more hostility towards us in the very cultures we should be trying to win over (as, ultimately, that's going to be the only realistic way to ever end a conflict like the one we are currently engaged in,) and putting all of our troops in even more danger. It almost makes me sick to think they are being placed in situations where they have to make these decisions without clear direction and instruction from above to make sure they don't do something that will, (inadvertently or not,) do themselves, and by extension all of us living in America, more harm than good.

 

Those are the ideas that almost make me sick to think about.

[Kurgan]

Oh give me a break from the 1st time I posted on this forum if you aren't chanting "Down with America" you are all, but banned and sometimes that for having a different frame of thought. All this forum is a collection of Non Americans and disgruntled American kids in a tug of war to see who can trash the US the most.

 

Whoa there, are you saying people are being "banned" from speaking their minds here? Please tell me of one person who's been "banned" from this forum solely for expressing their opinions (dissenting or not). If you're implying that's how we operate around here, that's a serious charge, so I'd like to see the evidence. If not, then pardon my misinterpretation of your post!

 

As for "trashing the US" hell no. I'm not trashing the US. Maybe somebody is, but I'm not. If these moron soldiers who do stupid stuff and piss the world off represent all America (well I guess they do represent us to a certain degree), then we're in sorry shape. If I can't bash war criminals, for fear of it seemingly like I'm bashing "America" then something is wrong with our communication. If anyone is "trashing America" its these sorry excuses for servicemen!

 

Last I checked our proud nation was founded on the freedoms we hold dear, which include the freedom to criticize our own government. And guess who commands the armed forces? Our government! You are damn right I'm mad at the guys who did this stuff. I'm more mad at their commanding officers, and up the chain of command. The leaders are responsible for what their men do. And yet as with so many other military scandals I fear that the man at the bottom will be the one punished, if he's punished at all. The leaders who encouraged or looked the other way will get off.

 

Then people turn around and blame the camera man for capturing the abuse and our soldiers doing, not their duty, but disgracing their uniform. Why do they get to shout loudly about their views, but we're considered to be kids bashing America? I don't get it. Blind patriotism is worse. The dictatorships of the world love that kind of thing, because it makes their job easier.

 

No, in America we hold our leaders to a higher standard. Sure, some people complain no matter what, but you know what? That's their right. So you can tell us to shut up, but don't expect us to. And at least in my case, I want America to be a great nation, it's when our soldiers disgrace us, I get upset. After all, to the people in these countries we have occupied (Ie: that we have a RESPONSIBILITY TO... when you conquer a nation you're responsible for taking care of it, not abusing it!) they ARE the face of America. Everything they do reflects back on us. So just as I hold our politicians to task when they do something stupid, so too our soldiers.

 

I said in a previous post I have family and friends who are/were overseas in harm's way. I don't hate them. I want them to come home safely. I pray that they don't get involved in any of the crap I hear about on TV/radio/the internet like this. I know that war can do nasty things to people and bring out the worst in them. I want the soldiers to come home, safe and sound, away from all this crap, honest.

 

What I hate is the empty rhetoric that says "support our troops" means we cover up their crimes as well. That's like enabling an alcoholic. It's not responsible...

 

There really isn't much discussion here you either agree with the majority or whatever you have to say is wrong.

 

What happens here if you disagree with the majority? Your feelings get hurt? I don't see what these "consequences" are. Sure, some threads are more discussion than others, but on hot-button subjects you can bet people will express their views, even argue. Does it always need to be 50/50? I've been in discussions before where I'm seemingly the only person on one side, so don't think I don't understand. The internet is such a diverse place you could probably find a forum for ANY subject you want with people who all agree with you. But where's the fun in that?

 

As for the war again.

 

There are three kinds of people in a war. The people who fight and die. The people who talk about it. The people who watch and keep their mouths shut.

 

It's kind of like a Ball game you have the spectators saying "why the hell didn't so & so do this or that", but they haven't the skill, ability, or the dedication it takes in the first place to be on the field. That's basically who all of you are. Then there are the ones who buy the tickets and are happy to just watch the game.

 

So you buy the tickets and are happy to just watch the game? You're happy there's a war on? I think your analogy falls apart, unless you wanted to make a really outrageous statement here.

 

You're saying we don't know anything about war. Okay, well most people don't. Does President Bush know anything about War? He's never fought in one as far as I know. Neither have many of the people over here supporting the war. What I see are soldiers doing stuff they're "not supposed" to be doing, and I see people saying we shouldn't complain about that. There's something wrong with this picture.

 

I'm not there and don't know what the solders go through. I can say this they are all better people then myself. I will never volunteer again to take the chance of getting killed for people like the ones on this forum. That idea almost makes me sick to think about.

 

So the guys who torture people in the prisons are better than you? C'mon man. Unless you are that much of a maniac, I think you ARE better than those folks. I freely admit it, I'm better than the guys who tortured people in Abu Gharib. I am by no means perfect, but at least I don't torture people!

 

That's a glaring example I think of how that statement is off. It's one thing to idolize "America's protectors." It's quite another to say that even jerks like that are to be admired. These guys belong in jail, or at the very least on toilet scrubbing duty until the war ends.

 

You said volunteer... are you a veteran? What branch of the service? I'm surprised you didn't say anything earlier. If you are, don't worry, plenty of our troops don't want to go back. Plenty of them will do anything to get out of it and come home. It's taken a lot of arm-twisting to get the ones who are still there to stay. Frankly I don't blame them. I may not be there, but I've seen interviews, I've talked with family who've been over there, I've read letters. It isn't a place I'd like to be. The only thing keeping them from going nuts were the friendships they had with people in their units. But that's survival. People will reach out in times of crises. That doesn't mean they wanted to be over there in the first place once they knew what it was like.

 

From what I've gathered these soldiers are not gods. They're just ordinary folks in dangerous times. Many people entered the service because their parents were in it, or their friends were in it. Or they did it to earn money for college, or they bought into the "adventure" angle the advertisments and recruiters put up. Sure, there were even some folks who got bitten by the super-patriotic "united we stand" bug after 9/11 and signed up for the guard. Nobody thought the guard would actually be sent as ground troops to Iraq! So I'm sure a large percentage of the men and women in this mess "didn't sign up for this $@#+." They simply were given orders and had little choice.

 

When it comes to America's armed forces, hey, I'm glad we're tough. I'm glad we have the power to win wars, but the trouble is our leaders don't seem to know how to run things, or even sometimes I get the feeling they just don't care like they should. They're throwing our nation's sons and daughters lives away, and I'm not sure for what.

 

Anyway... last thought before I head to class:

 

I never asked you or anyone else to go get killed in either of those hellholes. So don't be mad at me, be mad at the ones who want you to keep fighting for whatever it is we think we're fighting for over there (weapons of mass destruction? war on terror? oil? freedom? what?).

[toms]

As far as i know the majority of the people here are from the US, but I don't see how not keeping your mouth shut is particualrly unpatriotic. But for those of us that are outside the US, I don't see why we need to be "patriotic" at all.

 

Frankly though I see very little connection between "left" and "right" and "pro" and "anti" war and opinions on war crimes. I don't really see how your political leanings would aftect your views on troops burning bodies one way or another. It isn't a political issue.

 

People every day observe the actions of others and make suggestions, criticisms and decisions based on those actions... whether they are involved or not. That is kind of the point of democracy. We all have a chance to have our say on issues... not just those who are doing things.

 

No offence, but CJ comes across as every bit as fundamentalist as these people who we are fighting against.

Willing to accept any action that our side deems necessary to win, not matter how unsavoury? Check.

Willing to condemn anyone who dares offer an opinion or contradict the teachings of the leaders? Check.

Views the "enemy" as one big amorphous mass and feels the actions of some justify retaliation against all? Check.

 

I think Kurgan and Sith accurately seperated the differences between "terrorist" and "guerilla", and equally coherently explained why actions like this do more harm than good in the long term to the US military.

 

On a basic level "we" aren't that different to "them". And when "we" see our troops or comrades bodies mutilated, or our flags burned, or our building bombed we tend to get kind of upset and become more hardline in our support for revenge (exhibit a: Cosmos jack). Somehow i have the feeling "them" might react in the same way.