GabRaz Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Technically that's not how it works. There's levels of canon.... Yeah, I know, I know, I've read Mike Wong's website. lol Because it goes against the established storyline, as well as the movies. But that's the whole problem, there were no commandos in any of the movies, you can't exactly assume they'd react just like any other clone. In Republic Commando you're fighting for Palpatine against people who are trying to take him out of power. During the whole game there's not one mention of Palpatine, Sidious, or Supreme Chancellor, it's always been Republic...Republic...Republic, they've been tasked with the defense of the Republic; considering their individualism, it's very hard for me to believe their reaction to the creation the Empire, the dissolution of the very thing they were tasked to protect would be something along the lines: "oh no Republic, ok." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 But that's the whole problem, there were no commandos in any of the movies, you can't exactly assume they'd react just like any other clone. They were mentioned in AotC. And the commandos had the exact same genetic modifications as the rest of the clones, and they said in the movie how the clones had been modified specifically for absolute loyalty. Even the highly-independent commanders like Cody who had developed a friendship with their Jedi turned on them and killed them without the slightest hesitation. During the whole game there's not one mention of Palpatine, Sidious, or Supreme Chancellor, it's always been Republic...Republic...Republic And who's the commander-in-chief of the Republic's army? Palpatine. You're fighting for Palpatine, Sidious, the Sith Lord. Face it, you're evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 During the whole game there's not one mention of Palpatine, Sidious, or Supreme Chancellor, it's always been Republic...Republic...Republic, they've been tasked with the defense of the Republic; considering their individualism, it's very hard for me to believe their reaction to the creation the Empire, the dissolution of the very thing they were tasked to protect would be something along the lines: "oh no Republic, ok."I believe that the clones are not technically under direct control of Palpatine, they are under control of the Senate. And who's the commander-in-chief of the Republic's army? Palpatine. You're fighting for Palpatine, Sidious, the Sith Lord. Face it, you're evil.Again, IIRC they are technically fighting for the Senate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachineCult Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 And who's the commander-in-chief of the Republic's army? Palpatine. You're fighting for Palpatine, Sidious, the Sith Lord. Face it, you're evil. You're fighting for the Republic, killing droids, Geonosians and Trandoshan slavers, they're the bad guys, not you. Before the Empire the Clones were fighting for good, Palpatine wasn't evil, he never gave any "evil" orders until order 66. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I believe that the clones are not technically under direct control of Palpatine, they are under control of the Senate. Again, IIRC they are technically fighting for the Senate. Not quite right. The RotS visual dictionary says on page 44: "Clone troopers obey the commands of their Jedi generals, but ultimately they answer to Republic Chancellor and commander-in-chief, Palpatine." The clones refer to Palpatine as their Lord. You're fighting for the Republic Which is under Palpatine's control. killing droids, Geonosians and Trandoshan slavers, they're the bad guys, not you. They're bad, and so are you. You're fighting for the Republic, which is under Palpatine, and you're fighting the Separatists, who are also under Palpatine. Before the Empire the Clones were fighting for good Palpatine wasn't good. Palpatine wasn't evil Other than that whole "evil Sith Lord plotting to take over the galaxy with the help of his mindless clone slaves" thing. he never gave any "evil" orders until order 66. Doesn't matter to me. He still used the clones to take over the galaxy and kill the Jedi. And the clones obeyed him... "yes, my Lord." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachineCult Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 You have to think of Sidious and Palpatine as different people, until order 66. Palpatine is chancellor of the Republic, the Republic is the good thing in this whole saga, the Clones are the army of the Republic (good) who are fighting Sidious's Battledroids (evil). It doesn't matter that the two leaders are the same person. The Clones are fighting for the Republic, and given orders by the Jedi (who are the ultimate good guys), in the interests of the Republic (good). Palpatine never gave the Clones orders, he wasn't a General. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 You have to think of Sidious and Palpatine as different people, until order 66. Palpatine is chancellor of the Republic, the Republic is the good thing in this whole saga, the Clones are the army of the Republic (good) who are fighting Sidious's Battledroids (evil). It doesn't matter that the two leaders are the same person. The Clones are fighting for the Republic, and given orders by the Jedi (who are the ultimate good guys), in the interests of the Republic (good). Palpatine and Sidious are the same person, that evil hooded Sith Lord who shoots evil bolts of evil lightning out of his evil fingers. EVIL! Palpatine never gave the Clones orders, he wasn't a General. He was commander-in-chief. He gave Order 66. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachineCult Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Your first statement was pointless, forget Palpatine. If George Bush is evil does that mean your Soldiers are evil? He gave no orders before order 66, Republic Commando was before order 66. The Republic is the good thing in this whole saga, the Clones are the army of the Republic (good) who are fighting Sidious's Battledroids (evil). The Clones are fighting for the Republic, and given orders by the Jedi (who are the ultimate good guys), in the interests of the Republic (good). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I wouldn't say Bush is evil, but that's a different situation. Palpatine/Sidious is the commander-in-chief, meaning that he has the final say on all military orders. He gives the orders from the top. And if you think that the Republic is good, then apparently you think Darth Sidious is good. Because Sidious rules the Republic and uses it to take over the galaxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachineCult Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I wouldn't say Bush is evil, but that's a different situation. Palpatine/Sidious is the commander-in-chief, meaning that he has the final say on all military orders. He gives the orders from the top. And if you think that the Republic is good, then apparently you think Darth Sidious is good. Because Sidious rules the Republic and uses it to take over the galaxy. But the Republic is good. Palpatine wasn't being evil as the Chancellor of the Republic. Palpatine gave no orders, he wasn't a military man, the Jedi were the Generals they were working under Palpatine, are they evil? You really don't understand this, he didn't "use the Republic" to take over the galaxy, he took over the Republic and thus ruled the galaxy. and I meant to say "If George Bush were evil..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 But the Republic is good. Palpatine wasn't being evil as the Chancellor of the Republic. Why is the Republic good? The Republic gives itself over to Palpatine, the evil Sith Lord. The Republic applauded after the purging of the Jedi. Palpatine gave Order 66 as the Chancellor of the Republic. Palpatine gave no orders, he wasn't a military man, the Jedi were the Generals they were working under Palpatine, are they evil? Watch the Clone Wars series and you'll see how Palpatine has direct control over troops in the field. And the Jedi were not working under Palpatine. They're loyal to the Senate, not to its leader. You really don't understand this, he didn't "use the Republic" to take over the galaxy, he took over the Republic and thus ruled the galaxy. He didn't take it over, he was elected and the Republic gave him the power to do everything he did. Just like Hitler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachineCult Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 He is the only evil one, he decieved the senate, and made the Republic think that he needed the powers if the Republic were to stay intact. He also decieved the senate, and made up a story about the Jedi planning to overthrow the Republic, to the senate, the Jedi were evil (hence applause). The senate didn't know that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, they probably wouldn't know what a Sith Lord was, but it didn't matter because the Jedi are evil to them. Palpatine didn't want to appear evil to the senate, he wanted them to think he was good, and wanted the senate to stay intact so they would agree to the formation of the Empire, to protect the senate from another Rebellion like the Sepratists. And the Jedi were not working under Palpatine. They're loyal to the Senate, not to its leader. So who do the Jedi answer to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 He is the only evil one, he decieved the senate, and made the Republic think that he needed the powers if the Republic were to stay intact. He also decieved the senate, and made up a story about the Jedi planning to overthrow the Republic, to the senate, the Jedi were evil (hence applause). The senate didn't know that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, they probably wouldn't know what a Sith Lord was, but it didn't matter because the Jedi are evil to them. Palpatine didn't want to appear evil to the senate, he wanted them to think he was good, and wanted the senate to stay intact so they would agree to the formation of the Empire, to protect the senate from another Rebellion like the Sepratists. You have good points. However, even though they were decieved, they DID give this one man so much power that he could do such evil things on their watch. It's like in Nazi Germany. So who do the Jedi answer to? The Jedi Council. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Your first statement was pointless, forget Palpatine. If George Bush is evil does that mean your Soldiers are evil? He gave no orders before order 66, Republic Commando was before order 66. The Republic is the good thing in this whole saga, the Clones are the army of the Republic (good) who are fighting Sidious's Battledroids (evil). The Clones are fighting for the Republic, and given orders by the Jedi (who are the ultimate good guys), in the interests of the Republic (good). According to the precedent of the Nuremburg Trials of 20th century Earth, the excuse "I was only following orders" was NOT considered valid when you help carry out inhuman orders, such as participating in genocide. So yes, as long as the soldiers are free agents (ie: capable of distinguishing moral decisions) they are responsible for their own actions, even if the higher up according to military tradition is ultimately "responsible" for the actions of his men. But therein lies the difficulty. Do the soldiers have the ability to refuse an order? If Palpatine, or the officer says "shoot that man, now" can the soldier refuse? I don't mean, will he be shot by his superior if he disobeys. I mean, is he capable of refusing? If he is, then he is responsible, because he could choose to disobey the illegal or immoral order. Another example is in Vietnam with the Mai Lai massacre. The soldiers were following the orders of their superior, which happened to be illegal (massacreing and raping civilians), but they were still duty bound as human beings and as soldiers to refuse unlawful orders. But perhaps the Clones have no free will? Perhaps their being "genetically modified to be less independent than their host" means they simply are not mentally capable of refusing the order of a superior? Perhaps Sideous exerts mind control over them through the Dark Side of the Force? Those kinds of things would factor into whether the Clones are actually evil or merely puppets, with a madman pulling their strings. Sideous/Palpatine (the same individual) was evil because he STARTED the very war he was supposedly waging to protect the Republic from. He deliberately calluded with the enemy prior and during the events in order to create and prosecute the conflict. He could thus have also ended it much sooner than he did, but he chose not to in order to secure his power base. He also worked with agents who attempted assasinations (through Dooku to Jango and Zam) and committed other objectionable acts like kidnapping and execution of government agents without legal representation (Obi-Wan). He also began construction of weapons of mass (world) destruction for use against his own populance (gee, that sounds like one of the reasons we said we were going after Saddam, to toss in the Bush metaphor, though it's not an outright allegory, I don't buy that for a second). Now if you want to argue that his enemies simply deserved to die or be enslaved, that's your business, but to the majority of sane people, those sorts of actions are what we'd call "not nice." Was the Clone Army for the Senate? I don't think so, and not just because Palpatine "Is the Senate" (as he says in Episode III) but because with his Emergency Powers granted to him by the Senate, he has the power to create the Army, which is his "first act" with his new powers. Also he gives an order and they obey it with "It will be done, My Lord" not "I better get clearance from the Senate first..." The Jedi are generals, but apparently Sideous trumps their authority. And he can give the order AS Sideous, notice. Anyway, back to Palpatine. Are we saying he's not evil because the Senate gave him his power? Let's not forget that he got their approval by deceiving them in the first place by creating a war against them and pretending not to be part of it! Yes, he did corrupt certain Senaters behind the scenes, and certainly his Dark Side powers had something to do with it at least partially, but still. If the Senaters knew the real story beforehand, do you think they would have handed him all that power? I think you'd have been hard pressed to prevent a mob from lynching him on the Senate floor! Are the Battle droids evil? I think they are programmed to obey orders, though they seem to have some type of free will (at least self awareness and desire for preservation of self and comrades). Perhaps they are not capable of disobeying orders, but that scene with Grievous in the Invisible Hand makes me wonder. They too were following evil orders from an evil commander, but still. Droids can even disobey their programming (ie: Threepio impersonating a deity) though perhaps different kinds of droids have different levels of restraint and accountability, etc. The various Seperatist leaders may definately have been evil themselves, though not nearly as evil as Dooku and Sideous who were duping them into getting themselves killed so that Palpatine could attain control over the galaxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Yeah, Kurgan basically said what I was trying to get at, just he did it way better and in six paragraphs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Thanks! I'm a little backlogged on reading messages in this thread (which really took off while I was away!). Interesting points raise of course! Anyhow, somebody said on here about how the Deltas are supposed to be more independent than normal clones. Fine, granted. However, in real life, we have soldiers who are not genetically modified to be "less independent" obeying all kinds of crazy orders. Examples already given above, the Nazis, Mai Lai soldiers, and numerous other examples in history. Why do they do it? Peer pressure, fear of punishment, personal greed/sadism/bloodlust/racism/patriotism, "end justifies the means morality," etc. Being decieved and not thinking about it (self decieved even) certainly helps too I'm sure. Also, I edited my post just as you were posting, I made a slight typo (but an important one), which is now corrected! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Yeah, I know, I know, I've read Mike Wong's website. lol Just a quick note, it's important to realize that Mr. Wong's website (a fansite of course, not official, despite some very informative and interesting content!) is somewhat out of date in parts. Some of his early pages that discuss canon sound as if it's only the movies, scripts, novelisations and radio dramas that are on one level and everything else on the other. It doesn't mention the S/G/C system that was introduced later (though this is quoted on his forums extensively). Basically it's Leeland Chee, so one need not take Wong's word for it, he's merely reporting, not making policy. Just thought I'd clarify that for others even if you already know! But that's the whole problem, there were no commandos in any of the movies, you can't exactly assume they'd react just like any other clone. As others have said, yes, definately in ROTS. In AOTC they point off screen when Mace Windu lands in the assembly area and say "we've got some special commando units awaiting your orders" and we don't actually get to see them (tease!). During the whole game there's not one mention of Palpatine, Sidious, or Supreme Chancellor, it's always been Republic...Republic...Republic, they've been tasked with the defense of the Republic; considering their individualism, it's very hard for me to believe their reaction to the creation the Empire, the dissolution of the very thing they were tasked to protect would be something along the lines: "oh no Republic, ok." On my Boot Camp page (linked off of http://www.republiccommando.net incidentally!), I made a point of demonstrating how easily you can use propaganda to make it sound like your cause is just, even if you've made a complete reversal of what you previously said. Old stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elukka Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 About the commandos... What the Database says: The clone commando emerged as something "in-between" the two extremes of ARC trooper and clone trooper The ARC trooper was just about completely independent, while the clone trooper would have a real hard time disobeying an order. So, a commando is something in-between. What Wookieepedia says: When Order 66 was issued by Emperor Palpatine at the end of the Clone Wars, some commando units refused to fire on their commanding Jedi, thus showing that even the commandos trained to replace the almost completely independent ARC troopers were, in fact, also independent themselves. So they could go back for Sev, if they'd like to take the risk and wanted to do that. Oh, and for a possible sequel, there are also the Storm Commandos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Of course you have to ask which source the Star Wars Wiki (Wookieepedia) cites to back up that comment, since Wiki itself is not in any way official. Good point about the ARCs. I always thought they were a bit silly, but oh well. TK spent about a billion posts arguing that there were no ARCs in Episode III, that they'd all been retired. So take that up with him I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 The ARC trooper was just about completely independent, while the clone trooper would have a real hard time disobeying an order. So, a commando is something in-between. The commandos had the exact same genetic modifications as the rest of the Clone Troopers. The ONLY clones to my knowledge who lacked modification were the ARC Troopers. What Wookieepedia says: Wookieepedia is not always credible, and in this case, it is not. So they could go back for Sev, if they'd like to take the risk and wanted to do that. No, they couldn't. They already got in the gunship and left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Somebody want to re-edit the Wiki article to make those corrections? I would but I'm not as knowledgeable about the EU stuff as some people here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Somebody want to re-edit the Wiki article to make those corrections? I would but I'm not as knowledgeable about the EU stuff as some people here... I'm not even going to bother. Someone will just come and mess it up again. Plus, there's just too many problems on wiki with the clone articles, especially the Episode III ones. Then there's the wiki that says Plagueis invented Anakin, and Anakin isn't the Chosen One, etc., which we all know is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 I'm not even going to bother. Someone will just come and mess it up again. Plus, there's just too many problems on wiki with the clone articles, especially the Episode III ones. Then there's the wiki that says Plagueis invented Anakin, and Anakin isn't the Chosen One, etc., which we all know is wrong. True, but you can "revert" it back again. It's true there are some "posting wars" that go on occasionally on SW Wiki. Basically I've found that if you cite your sources in the edit people are more likely to accept it. For example I did this when I corrected the release date for Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight (It was listed incorrectly as Sept. 30th, when in fact it's Oct 9th, 1997). Post your changes here and the entry links and we'll "get your back" if you like. Right guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elukka Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 The commandos being something in-between was from the database. Also, there were commandos refusing to kill jedi. This wasn't in the movies, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 The commandos being something in-between was from the database. Yes and absolute loyalty was in the movie. Also, there were commandos refusing to kill jedi. This wasn't in the movies, though. Exactly, it's wiki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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