Saber system suggestions

[razorace]

Hi Sushi! Thanks for the feedback. Unless otherwise noted, most of the stuff you've mentioned is already in OJP E. And I'm with Kyle, you stated the basic situations very well. Good job!

1. A attacks, B defends passively/attempts parry and fails

This has been implimented for the most part. However, I'm not sure how fast styles would be able to have a counterattack advantage without making the styles unrealistically faster.

3. A and B attack at the same time, sabers collide.

Both A and B are bounced, recover a bit before being able to attack again. Alternately, a saber lock could occur.

Right now, saberlocks can occur in any situation where one of the blades is attacking.

4. A and B attack at the same time, sabers don't collide.

Let's say A's attack gets there first. If B is just starting the attack, B can still block. If B is fairly committed to the attack already, B is forced to dodge.

Right now, the blocking system comes down to which player hits the other player first (or gets his blade inside his opponent's box of protection). The commited attack = dodge is a good one, but experience has shown that players don't like it/don't feel in control while in dodges. However, they never seem to complain if the player blocks with a saber block.

 

5. Saber lock:

Unless the lock is broken early, the loser should die.

That seems a bit extreme. Locks are pretty random and the winner is often the one with the losest ping.

 

6. A hits B when B is mid-bounce:

Whatever it is, it should cost a lot of DP. I think I would actually prefer a block that costs a lot of DP to a dodge (it would look better IMO) but a dodge does the trick.

Right now, this situation results in B having a saber mishap (knockdown, stun, disarm). Since dodges cost so much DP, I'm trying to make sure that dodges won't occur for jedi unless they're defenses are smashed first. You can do this by causing them to have a mishap thru low DP/FP or by smashing a slow bounce.

 

8. A attacks B when B's back is turned:

This should be a dodge situation, not a block situation. I know there are technical difficulties with this, but that's why this is a wish list. If you can work around them in a reliable way, it would be awesome.

Actually, the current plan involves future implimentation of keshire's additional block animations which include backward block moves. For now, I'm just letting people imagine that they did some fancy block mow. However, it does cost them 2x DP.

 

9. A attacks B when B is on the ground:

A successful finishing stab should be death, but other contact should be dodgeable (although possibly at an increased cost).

I'm more for drawn out saber battles so players currently can roll dodge the finishing stab...unless they're out of the DP to do so. But you have a good point. I'll set things up so that a fatigued player simply can't dodge that death stab.

 

How I want to see styles:

Lighter styles recover quicker in bounce situations, but do less DP damage. Heavier styles, obviously, take longer to recover, but do more damage when they can land a hit. Staff should be easy to defend with but harder to attack, with little chance of disarm. Dual should cause oodles of damage but cost a lot in terms of FP and should be relatively easy to disarm.

Well, I've been debating variable DP damage based on style. I'm still musing about it since it would make balancing the DP cost a bit more complicated. And I agree with your suggestions about the staffs/duals.

 

Force powers:

Most of them should stay as they are.

Protect should cut DP costs.

Heal should repair both health and DP.

Blocking lightning with the saber should cost DP.

Drain recharges your DP and health with their FP.

Rage works similar to how it does now, but drains DP slowly as well as health.

So, exactly what are the downsides to protect, heal, drain, and rage then?

[Sushi_CW]

Like I said, it's more of a wishlist than anything. I understand that a lot of it may not actually work, and I'm OK with that. I've spent a lot of time playing single player and only a limited amount of time on multiplayer, and I'm willing to admit that I don't always know what works best. Practicality becomes an issue, and some ideas that sound good just don't work very well when put to the test.

 

That seems a bit extreme. Locks are pretty random and the winner is often the one with the losest ping.

That's true, I suppose. As I said, I'm coming from a largely single-player perspective and I enjoy a good saberlock. Naturally, they don't work as smoothly in multiplayer, but I wish they did. As stated, the biggest problem is that player skill isn't very involved.

 

As an aside, has anyone ever tried to change the saberlock system so that there is more involved than simply clicking really fast?

 

If a new saberlock system isn't possible (it would be hard to implement a system that responds gracefully to lag), then I think the next best thing would be for the lock to end in a knockdown for the loser.

 

So, exactly what are the downsides to protect, heal, drain, and rage then?

They'd cost FP. My ideas on force powers aren't as solid though... I haven't thought through them nearly as much as I've thought about sabering. I generally prefer fighting with a minimum of force power use anyway.

[JRHockney*]

Quick idea, and I'm not sure if its a good one yet, but I'll put it down anyway:

 

Make the slow bounces quicker above 75% DP and 75 FP, thus making them much harder if not impossible to hit above 75% whatever.

 

If you add the no dodge feature cvar that has lower DP/FP thresholds, you could add a third level of slow bounce to under 50% DP or 50 FP.

 

I've been thinking about it for a while now and the more I think about it, the better this idea sounds

 

Oh btw, don't feel like you need to make a new Enhanced every week. Given all the revision/additions that we've discussed and the fact that we can try out new stuff on the test server anyway, it's probably better to space out the releases a little more now. This will also help the people who have to up date the versions of Enhanced on servers keep their sanity.

[Maxstate]

Finally.

 

I think im leaving MB2 behind for the OJP, ojp just seems so much more fun to say the least. Anyway i wanted to ask if some of these animations could be implemented from the theatrics mod:

http://www.pcgamemods.com/mod/13578.html

Particurlarly the tavion and desann attacks and moves are totally changed to fit Mace windu's Vaapad and Dooku's Makashi forms, theyre excellent.

 

Surprisingly little downloads for such an awesome mod..

[razorace]

I'd have to have permission before I could even consider using other people's work. If you can get them to give permission, I could consider it.

[JRHockney*]

I'd have to have permission before I could even consider using other people's work. If you can get them to give permission, I could consider it.

 

Actually, the author already gave permission for anyone to use the animations as long as we cite his work:

 

If you'd like to try it for another mod or basejka, or simply alter it to make it work for another means, by all means, do so. But if you keep any of the animations I spliced together uniquely, namely the things like the saber attacks, please give credit. Those took pretty much a week of all-nighters to do.

 

That sounds like permission to me. Like most mod authors, he doesn't seem to care as long as his work is cited.

 

And I agree with paddy *coughs* Maxstate, this would be really cool to see as an option. Tircies' animations for tavions stance are totally awsome!

 

Finally.

 

I think im leaving MB2 behind for the OJP, ojp just seems so much more fun to say the least. Anyway i wanted to ask if some of these animations could be implemented from the theatrics mod:

http://www.pcgamemods.com/mod/13578.html

Particurlarly the tavion and desann attacks and moves are totally changed to fit Mace windu's Vaapad and Dooku's Makashi forms, theyre excellent.

 

Surprisingly little downloads for such an awesome mod..

 

Hooray!! Where very glad to have you play here. This dueling is addictive to say the least. Let me know ifyou want to meet online sometime through the scheduling thread or I'll P.M you my AOL screen name. Also, I'm not sure but I think that Tharagon test server is non-american so you might have higher ping there.

[JRHockney*]

Two quick things and an idea:

 

1. I''m not sure if that backflip kick absorb is working right. It still to suddenly absorb kicks from standing and seemingly other other positions as well. I'm also having second thoughts about having the parry direction for it moving forward because that means it can't be used defensively like in a two on one situation. I'm thinking maybe make it only happen when your standing still or maybe croutching. This way, it can be used both offensively and defensively.

 

2.I just had several 10 minute long duels with Sushi (who's gotten alot better by the way). We just couldn't seem to do enough damage to each other and I doubt we're both THAT good. With this observation, it might be wise to increase the overall DP damage of everything just a bit. I know that things are going to change when you implement the optional "No dodge, lower mishap threshold" idea, but It might be wise to implement this as well so fights between experienced Enhanced players don't last forever.

 

3. With number "2." in mind, I was wondering if there could be an optional difference between a no DP costing block and a parry. I've noticed that there are times when I block a swing for no DP cost, but my opponent doesn't get parried. Maybe tapping attack while moving in the right direction could cause the parry or someting like that. This could be an optional cvar as well!! LOL!

[Maxstate]

Hi there Hock!

 

I cant find Tireces/Lorcus' contact information anywhere, and he didnt put any disclaimers on his material..

[razorace]

1. I''m not sure if that backflip kick absorb is working right. It still to suddenly absorb kicks from standing and seemingly other other positions as well. I'm also having second thoughts about having the parry direction for it moving forward because that means it can't be used defensively like in a two on one situation. I'm thinking maybe make it only happen when your standing still or maybe croutching. This way, it can be used both offensively and defensively.

Good point. Ok, so, instead should it maybe only work when you're not running?

 

2.I just had several 10 minute long duels with Sushi (who's gotten alot better by the way). We just couldn't seem to do enough damage to each other and I doubt we're both THAT good. With this observation, it might be wise to increase the overall DP damage of everything just a bit. I know that things are going to change when you implement the optional "No dodge, lower mishap threshold" idea, but It might be wise to implement this as well so fights between experienced Enhanced players don't last forever.

Mmmm, I don't know about that. We already increased the body dodge costs recently and I find that players die fast once they start getting mishaps. maybe you guys just need to be more aggressive.

 

3. With number "2." in mind, I was wondering if there could be an optional difference between a no DP costing block and a parry. I've noticed that there are times when I block a swing for no DP cost, but my opponent doesn't get parried. Maybe tapping attack while moving in the right direction could cause the parry or someting like that. This could be an optional cvar as well!! LOL!

I've noticed the whole parry-without-mishap issue as well. I think it was mainly due to the spin moves not going into bounces like they were supposed to. I think I fixed it for the most part but keep an eye out for it.

 

Or alternatively, the HUD meter isn't very accurate if you hadn't noticed. It has a fairly large level of granularity so individual saber block costs might sometimes not be seen as a change in the hud.

 

Finally, let's not go overboard on the cvaring. The only reason why I was ok with the dodge cvar is because it seemed playable AND becuase a large number of player complain about Dodge.

[Maxstate]

The guy said that he just scrambled raven animations to make his own, i dont see a disclaimer anywhere nor some copyright.

 

I cant find any contact information either, he didnt leave an e-mail or anything and i dont know how to access the pcgamemods comments section -.-.

 

I had an idea in mind Razor, ive always seen you trying out new stuff, the idea was to give each saber style a boost or buff based on the 7 original Saber Forms. And a debuff in its turn.

Just an example hereof: Tavions style, which you could consider Makashi; Dooku's style would be given more ripostes or disarms than any other style.

In return you could add a weakness to blaster bolts of any kind, since deflecting energy bolts with the force of lets say a wookiee bowcaster would be more difficult with one hand.

 

Desann's current style (of which i dont like the one-handed animations, hence trying to bring in the Theatrics mod partial two-handed anims) could be considered Juyo/Vaapad; complete mastery used by only a few jedi like Mace Windu. It could be given:

-Slight hp damage when an enemy dodges; 15 hp everytime someone dodges

-Permit you to use Dark Rage without the consequences like lack of speed etc. etc.

Hmm, its weak point.. well i guess the huge dark rage fp* drain would be enough of a negative point as it is?

 

I could add more if you like the idea. I know its gonna be a hell of coding work but thats never stopped you tell me what you think!

 

Woops.. read up and saw that this was already suggested in a similar fashion.

Sorry .

[JRHockney*]

Good point. Ok, so, instead should it maybe only work when you're not running?

 

I would say not even walking. Most players won't attack while their running now anyways so it should probably only work when you're standing still. This way, two players walking and swinging at another player can still be kicked away and would have to stop in there tracks in order to make it work. This shouldnt be to hard to learn, players would just have to look for those kicks and learn to stop.

 

Also, if possible, it might be cool to have the kicker block anything on the back half of his body opposite to where he's kicking. This way, it can be done in a two on one fashion alot easier.

Mmmm, I don't know about that. We already increased the body dodge costs recently and I find that players die fast once they start getting mishaps. maybe you guys just need to be more aggressive.

 

We tried that! LOL! We got really aggressive after the first 10 minute fight and didn't decease the fight length by much. We both know how to negotiate mishaps really well so it didn't help enough. Since we both wanted to win, we both started turtling and basic faking alot when we got below 50 FP in order to get back above it.

 

The fact is, at the moment amoung good players, it seems that the turtle beats the hare too much and we need to be thinking of another attack option to beat the turtle. More general Dp damage might help even if it is increace by only one point. This might be a good cvar option...oh no! I said the C word! But player/server control is a good thing right?

 

Or...maybe you could keep track of there parries vs successful hits like you planning on doing with the rage and absorb. When they have too many parries, allow them to get paused, slowbounced or maybe even mishaped by special attacks.

 

I've noticed the whole parry-without-mishap issue as well. I think it was mainly due to the spin moves not going into bounces like they were supposed to. I think I fixed it for the most part but keep an eye out for it.

 

The thing is, I kind of like that factor because it stops too many slow bounces from happening and making the combat too "pausey", but I would like to see this become more mechanial.

 

As an option, I'd like to reprepose this idea:

Make the slow bounces quicker above 75% DP and 75 FP, thus making them much harder if not impossible to hit above 75% whatever.

 

If you add the no dodge feature cvar that has lower DP/FP thresholds, you could add a third level of slow bounce to under 50% DP or 50 FP.

 

You haven't made any comments on it yet, so maybe it's worth another viewing.

 

Woops.. read up and saw that this was already suggested in a similar fashion.

Sorry .

 

Yeah I know, Razor's never been big into the seven forms idea, but the seven forms can still exist in this system through style preference just as it did in MB2. Once you know this combat well enough, it won't be too hard to see how.

 

I still like the idea of using Tircies tavion animation substitutes though. They don't appear to be choppy, so it might be worth a shot.

[Sushi_CW]

10 minute duels? I swear that one lasted at least 25 before you sent me flying off that ledge.

 

I'm inclined to feel that it's too hard to attack successfully once you get your FP down below 50. At that point, you're likely to lose your saber or get knocked down on a parry, so you go into defensive mode (turtling, as JRHockney said) until your opponent has worn his FP down to the same level. And then you both take it easy until you recharge again. 50% feels like too high of a threshold to me. Although apparently there are plans in the works to lower that threshhold...

 

As far as the slowbounces go, I like the way they work. Especially when someone gets slowbounced and tumbles backwards over a cliff... Still, I wish I felt like it were more possible to score hits (or at least force a dodge!) without them. If there are "fast bounces" that temporarily open up an opponent to attack, I have as yet been unable to find or exploit them.

 

Another observation: it seems a bit too hard to batter through a determined defense, even if you have a massive FP and DP advantage. At one point, I was able to hold JRHockney off for a couple of minutes with FP < 20 and DP very low. I'm not THAT good...by all rights, he should have been able to finish me off.

 

On the upside, it was ridiculously fun to get involved in those long, intense duels, and it showed exactly why OJPE is so awesome.

[Maxstate]

I'd really like to see less of these so called "mishaps" and more regular parrying, with a greater Dp loss. Other than that i like this saber system.

[JRHockney*]

After a very long session of playing today (and more aggressive 10 minute duels!!), I have a few more observations.

 

1. Turtling is almost unbeatable without losing a ton of FP especailly on the test server. Kicking use to be a way to break through turtling, but its too hard to actually do now because its far too easy to backflip absorb (which is another reason why I suggested only having it happen when your standing still, Hmmm. Or maybe when you get low on DP it stops working!!). Also, most of us playing today agree that hits need to do a little more DP damage overall. There is also this idea:

 

Or...maybe you could keep track of there parries vs successful hits like you planning on doing with the rage and absorb. When they have too many parries, allow them to get paused, slowbounced or maybe even mishaped by special attacks.

 

If you can make it work, it might help decide the outcome of duals quicker based on skill and not, turtling...although...I'm not sure how it would work when fighing more than one person.

 

2. We might have to get together and retest the parrying. I got stunned several times when I was obviously moving in the right parry direction. What ever happen to that desperation DP gain for parrying right? If it's in, it doesnt seem to work (or didnt today).

 

I'd really like to see less of these so called "mishaps" and more regular parrying, with a greater Dp loss. Other than that i like this saber system.

 

Are you refering to slowbounces when you say parrying? If so, I think I agree there. I would still like to see quicker slow bounces above 75% DP. Mishaps should only happen on the slow bounce conversion until a lower threshold is reached.

 

3. Me, Maxstate and Idle were playing at the tharagon server which has very fast FP gain. Our fights seemed to go faster in spite of the fact that its just 0.0.8 damage and turtling was harder because kicking knocked people over. Just something to keep in mind.

[razorace]

Desann's current style (of which i dont like the one-handed animations, hence trying to bring in the Theatrics mod partial two-handed anims) could be considered Juyo/Vaapad; complete mastery used by only a few jedi like Mace Windu. It could be given:

-Slight hp damage when an enemy dodges; 15 hp everytime someone dodges

-Permit you to use Dark Rage without the consequences like lack of speed etc. etc.

Hmm, its weak point.. well i guess the huge dark rage fp* drain would be enough of a negative point as it is?

I'm against hp damage since it would mean that the style would be able to kill anyone in a long-term battle.

Anyway, I don't think your style choice should affect your ability to use force powers since it's not realistic. If you have a specific case where it would affect the force powers, please let me know.

 

Turtling is almost unbeatable without losing a ton of FP especailly on the test server.

Agreed. The current problems with the system seem to originate with human vs. human battles, where both players have a clue about parrying and such. I've had a couple of ideas about what to do:

 

1. Players are getting viewlocked by idle sabers. As such, attackers can being prevented from advancing whenever the defender's saber touches their saber. This is a problem since attackers and defenders move at the same speed.

 

2. The no DP cost for parries appears to be overpowered for good human players. I'm thinking that we might have to make it so that parries cost half block DP or maybe FP to offset turtling.

 

3. Maybe decrease the speed of players walking backwards by just a little bit? That way attackers would be able to advance after a defender and stay close enough to attack.

 

BTW, desperation regens do work, it might just be lag or something.

[JRHockney*]

I'm against hp damage since it would mean that the style would be able to kill anyone in a long-term battle.

Anyway, I don't think your style choice should affect your ability to use force powers since it's not realistic. If you have a specific case where it would affect the force powers, please let me know.

 

Although, The idea of making all styles do HP damage when a dodge is forced might be a good idea though. That way, a person who is playing better will win and the person who is constantly having his dodge activate won't be able to always turtle and his way back to life. It would also bring fights to an end based on how good a person is actually doing.

 

Agreed. The current problems with the system seem to originate with human vs. human battles, where both players have a clue about parrying and such. I've had a couple of ideas about what to do:

 

1. Players are getting viewlocked by idle sabers. As such, attackers can being prevented from advancing whenever the defender's saber touches their saber. This is a problem since attackers and defenders move at the same speed.

 

2. The no DP cost for parries appears to be overpowered for good human players. I'm thinking that we might have to make it so that parries cost half block DP or maybe FP to offset turtling.

 

3. Maybe decrease the speed of players walking backwards by just a little bit? That way attackers would be able to advance after a defender and stay close enough to attack.

 

Good ideas, especially 2. I liked the fact back in 0.0.4 that the only way you could block for no DP loss was to stick your saber in front of the swing which was very hard to do). Some people might not like this idea as much though.

 

They might help a decent amount. However, I REALLY think you should reconsider the idea about making the only making the flip kick absorb only work when you stand still. The fact is kicking a person over is already fairly hard to do and should be rewarded for doing it. The kick absorb SHOULD be rare and more of a "oooh nice absorb" kind of thing rather than a " wow, I just wasted my time risking kicking you for no reason considering no one runs anymore" type of a thing. This move should require a good eye more than anything and be somewhat hard to do.

 

Question: I noticed when I was test fighting a tabbot today that when the tabbot was low on DP, he would still get parried and stunned even though I was press the complete wrong parry direction. Is that suppose to happen?

 

One more thing: Maxstate was mentioning today that parrys seem a little too easy to do and he would like if it was harder to do. I agree. I've already suggested making much shorter slow bounces happen before 75% DP and I still like that idea.

 

But a possible alternative would be if in order to give them a longer slow bounce or mishap after 50 DP/FP, you had to press the perfect angle of their swing and not just within one space as it is now. Within one space would still give a very quick slow bounce thats almost impossible to hit and do a conversion or just prohibit them from swinging for a half second. I'm not sure if the hit detection is good enough to do this, but it might cool to have this because it would be harder to hit that perfect angle and there would be quite as many parries. It would also have to be tweaked perfectly to do this, which I not entirely convinced that its perfect even now.

[Kyle Kelasheski]

1st playing OJP E online

I've just played my third online match of JA, and my first online experience with OJP E.

 

It plays very differently from offline. Generally it plays at a much faster pace. For being an online OJP E "virgin" I like to think that I did really well. I came in 2nd. place in my first FFA, and I frequently had 1st. place.

 

I noticed that a lot of the players were not using the Attack Fake moves, so they were quite vulnerable to such attacks. I think that with the next release more needs to be done to inform potential players of all the capabilities of OJP E. Of course, there ARE documents to read, but from tonight's performance, I can only assume that they're not being read. So, any potential solutions to this gulf in communication? It's more than likely that it's too early to do this now, but perhaps when the mod is very nearly finalized an instructional/promotional video could be produced. They say a picture says a thousand words, so I can only imagine how helpful a video could be.

 

I did pretty well as a single duelist in Power Duel. Not great, but certainly not awful either. I'd guess that I won half of the matches, and that about 30% of those wins were assisted by Force Pushing one of the opponents into an abyss. Not exactly the most sportsmanlike thing to do, but neither is standing on a guys head (see immediately below for details).

 

One thing that I STRONGLY feel needs addressing is how often times in Power Duels one of the two opponents hops on the head of the single duelist, denying him/her the capability to escape via jump, and I even feel that it hinders other movement options as well, such as rolls, etc., etc. For the short term: what's the SURERST and QUICKEST means to slay these annoying nerfing buffoons?

 

For the long term: is there ANY means by which to make it impossible for others to stand on another character's head? I know from when I played Infiltration, a close quarters combat infantry simulator for the original Unreal Tournament that there was a means to almost completely neutralize such bizarre behavior, but I realize that there's a world of difference between the UT and Quake engines, so I'm just hoping that somehow and someway the answer is "Yes."

 

I don't know how it is that you're able to take in and digest ALL the events that are going on while playing the game, and simultaneously keep CLOSE track of what's happening on the HUD's meters and process through what it all means in regards to game mechanics. I have to give you credit, as it seems that you're meticulous collectors of information!

 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

THEATRICS saber mod:

I agree with others' assessments in regards to using some of the author's materials: as it states in his Read Me, as long as credit is given where it is due then it's perfectly OK to use them in OJP.

 

That being said, a number of the stances are extremely powerful, such as the purple (Dooku's) stance, and the lime green one is unbelievably powerful. It's very easy to become "chainsaws" with these stances.

 

A broad range of the animations are done with real taste. I love the alternate parrying animations. Some of the walking one's look awful however. Integrate whatever you can from the Theatrics mod, as long as it's kept balanced.

 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

In regards to making parrying sabers more difficult; this is somewhat difficult for me to judge, considering the amount of online play I've had, but I really enjoy the parrying system as it is right now, as I'd say perhaps upwards of 60% of the parrys I made were in the very knick of time. But who knows how much of my perceptions are due to my online inexperience?

 

What I hope to do, and hopefully it'll happen THIS weekend, is to be able to play online with experienced OJP Eers who are willing to do some thorough and patient "sabers only" training. I think that it'll be only then that I'll be in a truly sound position to judge what the game mechanics could be like.

 

My fingers are crossed.

 

Yours!

 

Kyle

March 4, 2006

 

.

[JRHockney*]

Ahh your first time play online enhanced, huh? Well, you'll generally find two types of players: trained and untrained. The untrained ones are obvious because they just swing spam. the untrained one (who havent been trained by me, someone else, or the manual) you will find very hard to beat because they've most likely learned how to parry really well. I'll be on a little while tomarrow sometime before 2:00 pm iMountaintime if you want to mess around btw.

 

One thing that I STRONGLY feel needs addressing is how often times in Power Duels one of the two opponents hops on the head of the single duelist, denying him/her the capability to escape via jump, and I even feel that it hinders other movement options as well, such as rolls, etc., etc. For the short term: what's the SURERST and QUICKEST means to slay these annoying nerfing buffoons?

 

Thats a glitch that happens when they try to jump on the other side of you and you move under them I think. I think thats still being worked on and usually only happens in power duel. I'm surprised its not fixed yet because I thought it was fixed in a previous version. When the bots do that, just get run like heck and get him off you.

 

That being said, a number of the stances are extremely powerful, such as the purple (Dooku's) stance, and the lime green one is unbelievably powerful. It's very easy to become "chainsaws" with these stances.

 

They won't be over powered by any means. All the stances in enhanced do the same damage at the moment and razor can slow down the animations if needed. desanns style in FM3 can't be blocked, but I garautee it will be here. After all, there just animation replacements (and the coolest ones EVER!!!)

 

In regards to making parrying sabers more difficult; this is somewhat difficult for me to judge, considering the amount of online play I've had, but I really enjoy the parrying system as it is right now, as I'd say perhaps upwards of 60% of the parrys I made were in the very knick of time. But who knows how much of my perceptions are due to my online inexperience?

 

Just wait till you get good. You'll be annoyed at how easy it is! LOL! It often happens without even ententionally doing it. I have had many many 10Minute+ fights due to constant parrying and this is one of the reasons many of us want to make it harder or change hows it's structured.

 

What I hope to do, and hopefully it'll happen THIS weekend, is to be able to play online with experienced OJP Eers who are willing to do some thorough and patient "sabers only" training. I think that it'll be only then that I'll be in a truly sound position to judge what the game mechanics could be like.

 

Make sure you fight some good people this weekend. Only then will you know. BTW, it you find yourself having problems parrying with the side buttons (A and D), press back (S) along with them in the appropriate direction. It seems to help alot and its what I tell all my "students" when they have problems with it. It always works too!

[razorace]

Although, The idea of making all styles do HP damage when a dodge is forced might be a good idea though. That way, a person who is playing better will win and the person who is constantly having his dodge activate won't be able to always turtle and his way back to life. It would also bring fights to an end based on how good a person is actually doing.

A player that has been able to continuously use body dodges and not die is also a good player. Plus, I don't want to get into a situation like in the MB2 community where people complain about HP drain. I say we try other solutions to turtling before we attempt to change the dodge/hp relationship.

 

As for kicking, maybe we need to reconsider what kicking is supposed to do outside of hitting stunned players.

 

Question: I noticed when I was test fighting a tabbot today that when the tabbot was low on DP, he would still get parried and stunned even though I was press the complete wrong parry direction. Is that suppose to happen?

That might have been a fluke or lag or something. Let me know if you notice it as a continuing problem.

 

One more thing: Maxstate was mentioning today that parrys seem a little too easy to do and he would like if it was harder to do. I agree. I've already suggested making much shorter slow bounces happen before 75% DP and I still like that idea.

 

But a possible alternative would be if in order to give them a longer slow bounce or mishap after 50 DP/FP, you had to press the perfect angle of their swing and not just within one space as it is now. Within one space would still give a very quick slow bounce thats almost impossible to hit and do a conversion or just prohibit them from swinging for a half second. I'm not sure if the hit detection is good enough to do this, but it might cool to have this because it would be harder to hit that perfect angle and there would be quite as many parries. It would also have to be tweaked perfectly to do this, which I not entirely convinced that its perfect even now.

Yeah, I'm also still thinking about the slow bounce speeds. But I'm not sure we need to have two or more different recovery speeds. We might just need to speed up the slow bounces in general.

 

As for the parry blocking arcs, I agree that it's a good idea but the the parry direction system might not work well enough for it to work properly.

[Maxstate]

My ideas (the ones of which i gave examples yesterday ace!) are as following:

 

Shii-Cho/Niman = Yellow:

*Since its balanced and shii-cho focuses on simple combat with mutliple opponents i suggest giving it one of the following abilities:

 

-No extra dp drain if someone hits your back

-Complete focus: If you meditate after youve reached 100 fp you can get an extra 25 that slowly run out after you stand up.

Cant think of any to add here really, it is however one of the most widely used styles ive seen in OJP, so help me out here guys!

-Add no weaknesses to this style.

 

Makashi = Tavions:

-Add a chance to disarm someone with a fake into the direction of where the saber comes from. If it fails you lose a full block of DP.

-Add a weakness to any type of blaster bolts, make them drain more DP.

 

Soresu = Blue:

-Give it a better defense rating and a much weaker offense rating.

If someone decides to turtle then theyre gonna have to face the consequences for it, you can guard yourself all day long but you cant counter your enemy with anything since it lacks the power.

-Add a better aim for deflecting blaster bolts back at the enemy.

 

Ataru = Dual style but with one hand:

-Jumps that are in the limit of jump 1 (say you jump 6 feet into the sky) drain no fp, neither do cartwheels and/or wall-acrobatic.

-Give jedi and sith the ability to stay in Speed (only for speed 3) for 1 fp every 3 seconds. "Force-assisted movement".

-The acrobatics are used for dodging, if you get hit in one it would either greatly damage your dp or kill you instantly.

 

Djem-So = Red style:

-Add a quicker recovery from mishaps, only if youre in red style.

-Add the ability to deflect blaster bolts for a longer time.

-If you get hit in the quicker mishap it should drain a small percentage more DP.

 

Shien = One handed staff style:

if only..

 

Juyo = Desanns style:

First i was thinking of getting a weak form of "Dark rage" somehow implemented into a light-sided jedi, but that would be a bit too unrealistic.

The dark-sided jedi version for this is simple really, if youre in the Juyo style and you use dark-rage you either shouldnt get the hp drain or shouldnt get the drawbacks of slower movement at the end.

 

Jedi are however more difficult to balance this way.

My first idea:

-If you combine speed 2 and protect 1 you would get a kind of Jedi dark rage with its own effects and such. If you parry in this mode you would get 5 fp granted. It would act like normal dark rage but it should not drain hp, only slightly affect your speed afterwards for awhile.

 

Seems a bit overpowered eh?

My other idea

-Enable the ability to make 2 real fast power/ real fakes in succession, normal styles do something like slash-realfake- slash. JUyo should get real fake -

real fake - slash. It would definately make it more like Juyo from the movies/books. Mace combining confusion and power.

 

The possibilities are endless however, i have many more ideas.. lets see what all of you think of these

[McDizzi]

I'd prefer it if saber forms were kept out of OJP. They would confuse more than needed, and I think we should try to build more on the current system without implementing the Forms.

[Maxstate]

I never said anything about implementing the forms, i was hinting at giving the current styles Buffs and Debuffs that are seven form-oriented.

It would help if you read what i posted.

[Sushi_CW]

I would like to see different styles behave differently somehow, although I'm not sure I like MaxState's ideas (no offense ). Mine have been posted elsewhere.

 

That said, I say that basic saber combat should be tuned before changes like that happen. For now, I'm happy the way things are... styles are basically equivalent, but with different animations. I vote to keep it that way until basic saber mechanics have been further hammered out.

 

I think the biggest problem right now is exactly what is being discussed... it's too hard to win by being aggressive. The easiest way to kill someone in the current system is to turtle until the enemy is exhausted, force a mishap or slow bounce, and THEN go for the kill. That's unfortunate because it gives no incentive to be aggressive.

[JRHockney*]

A player that has been able to continuously use body dodges and not die is also a good player. Plus, I don't want to get into a situation like in the MB2 community where people complain about HP drain. I say we try other solutions to turtling before we attempt to change the dodge/hp relationship.

 

Good player? Maybe, but the fact is, they made more mistakes than the other guy and they should be punished. I've caused more mishaps on certain players than I can count, and when they dont die after the tenth time, its really frustrating. And the reason why people complain at the MB site is that the HP drain seems random. If we made causing dodge only do like 15 or maybe 20 HP damage consistantly, it would make sense and there would be little to complain about other than their lack of skill. People who suggust no HP loss in MB are usually laughed off because anyone with experience knows why its there.

 

As for kicking, maybe we need to reconsider what kicking is supposed to do outside of hitting stunned players.

 

Yeah, I just think it should be risky, but not nearly impossible to do like it is now. They don't absorb every random kick with a backflip in the movies.

 

That might have been a fluke or lag or something. Let me know if you notice it as a continuing problem.

 

I'll keep an eye out, but because I was test fighting and it happened more than a few times, I have a feeling that somethings not right there.

 

Yeah, I'm also still thinking about the slow bounce speeds. But I'm not sure we need to have two or more different recovery speeds. We might just need to speed up the slow bounces in general.

 

I actually like the idea of two different bounce speeds because it implies progression. Also, if we shorten them too much, the slowbounce bconversion wold be nearly impossible to do. I say if they have under 75% DP when they get parried, only then should they get the slow bounce the length it is now so they can be slowbounce conversioned. Over 75% DP, it should be very quick with only enough time for the other guy to swing first. Honestly, this would make slow bounce conversions happen less and make the saber combat less pausey.

 

A

s for the parry blocking arcs, I agree that it's a good idea but the the parry direction system might not work well enough for it to work properly.

 

Yeah I was worried about that. They would have to be tweaked to perfection and that would be way too difficult to be sure of.

 

As for the seven forms ideas, I've already posted alot of these ideas and sadly I already know the answer to them.

[Kyle Kelasheski]

I have the following questions after playing OJP E online for the second time:

 

1. What purpose do the other non-Attack Fake swings serve? The reason why I ask this is that it seems like the Attack Fakes are far superior in achieving their objectives. Are the regular swings intended to be quicker, and are to be used extensively once the other player starts dodging, or ...? Clarity on this would help.

 

2. During TFFA, if one accepts a duel it still seems like other players are able to interfere with the duel. Can they and their powers be "ghosted" so that they have no influence on the outcome or the players of an agreed upon "private" duel?

 

3. What exactly is meant by "turtling?"

 

 

I want to again emphasize that during last night's Power Duels, paired duelists were intentionally standing on the single duelist's head. There's no doubt about this on my part, especially when they're standing on top almost no matter what one does, and when they're trying to land some saber hits on one's shoulders. This behavior occured again and again and again.

 

Over all, I really enjoy the online duels. They are far more interesting than going up against bots.

 

I just wish VERY badly that TeamSpeak was integrated into the online setup. Man, that would open up a whole new OJP E world of experience for those playing the game.

 

Yours,

 

Kyle

March 4, 2006

 

.