Saber system suggestions

[razorace]

WELL, MY POINT IS...*cough*...my point is that DP deaths are only supposed to happen thru outclassing your opponent or having your opponent really screw up.

 

If saberers are evenly classed, they're probably going to have to wear each other down until someone no longer has the FP to be able to fight effectively.

 

This puts us in a position where we have to balance between doing enough damage to be able to get skill kills and doing too much damage where duels end randomly.

[JRHockney*]

I'd like to bring out the fact that lunges are currently a bit overpowered if you know how to use them correctly. If someone is slashing at you, or you get parried, and you succeed to perform a lunge at your attacker he loses a big bit if not all of his DP. Can this be looked at?

 

Maybe lungers should get heavy bounced anytime they get parried. Hmmm, Razor, I forgot. Can we still parry when we're in slow bounce. Even lunges?

 

If saberers are evenly classed, they're probably going to have to wear each other down until someone no longer has the FP to be able to fight effectively.

 

Well, you know how much FP deaths annoy me. From my experience, I could be keeping my opponent in the red for an entire fight and just not be able to finish him off, and while I'm trying to finish him off, I end up losing all my FP. Hmmm, maybe we should make FP gain stop or even go down while a person is flashing red and the rest of the time, have it go a bit quicker than usual? This might help create a more accurate out come for fights when a person is taking hits like Rocky, but not fighting like him! LOL

[Maxstate]

Maybe lungers should get heavy bounced anytime they get parried. Hmmm, Razor, I forgot. Can we still parry when we're in slow bounce. Even lunges?

 

 

 

Well, you know how much FP deaths annoy me. From my experience, I could be keeping my opponent in the red for an entire fight and just not be able to finish him off, and while I'm trying to finish him off, I end up losing all my FP. Hmmm, maybe we should make FP gain stop or even go down while a person is flashing red and the rest of the time, have it go a bit quicker than usual? This might help create a more accurate out come for fights when a person is taking hits like Rocky, but not fighting like him! LOL

Yes, I think we should be able to choose whether we want a DP or FP death for our opponent. I see it this way, FP deaths happen most frequently because normal attacks are used far more than attack fakes. Before, if you wanted to kill someone by DP loss you would use a lot of real fakes because they drained lots of DP. Now, real fakes are hardly ever used simply for the fact that theyre near-useless. By the time you get your real fake ready your bouncing opponent will be up and adam, red DP or not.

 

I see real fakes as a kind of powerslashes, confusing as hell and hardy but not without cons to it. Maybe, real fakes should do a bit extra dp damage but have an increased chance of getting disarmed or bounced, I think thats what you guys have been planning here all along

[JRHockney*]

I see real fakes as a kind of powerslashes, confusing as hell and hardy but not without cons to it. Maybe, real fakes should do a bit extra dp damage but have an increased chance of getting disarmed or bounced, I think thats what you guys have been planning here all along

 

Are you talking about attack fakes here? In 0.0.9, attack fakes do a little more damage than normal attacks and they cause mishaps on a person when the person has low DP. They use to do double damage and not be parryable, but they were spammed to death.

 

On the code server, they stilll do al little more damage than normal attacks and slow bounce a person when they try to parry it. So, I would say they are a long way from being near useless.

[Maxstate]

Are you talking about attack fakes here? In 0.0.9, attack fakes do a little more damage than normal attacks and they cause mishaps on a person when the person has low DP. They use to do double damage and not be parryable, but they were spammed to death.

 

On the code server, they stilll do al little more damage than normal attacks and slow bounce a person when they try to parry it. So, I would say they are a long way from being near useless.

 

Well, I might have overreacted. But I miss the time where you could kill someone with an attack fake. Try killing a bouncing person with an attack fake, it takes so much time to windup that it can be parried easily.

[JRHockney*]

Well, I might have overreacted. But I miss the time where you could kill someone with an attack fake. Try killing a bouncing person with an attack fake, it takes so much time to windup that it can be parried easily.

 

Yeah, it does make a cool finishing move when you kill someone with it, but it really wasn't meant as a finishing move. Razor gave the lunge some kind of special finishing ability if I remember right, maybe he could do the same for the attack fake, like making it do double damage when a person is in the DP red zone or something. But then again, we need to make sure we don't make it any more spammable than it already is, so we need to be careful about what we add too it.

[Maxstate]

Yeah, it does make a cool finishing move when you kill someone with it, but it really wasn't meant as a finishing move. Razor gave the lunge some kind of special finishing ability if I remember right, maybe he could do the same for the attack fake, like making it do double damage when a person is in the DP red zone or something. But then again, we need to make sure we don't make it any more spammable than it already is, so we need to be careful about what we add too it.

 

As I've stated in numerous of our games, I dislike the lunge attack. It was supposed to be a quick tiebreaker that leaves you open if it isnt used correctly, if you lunge someone thats in a bounce it almost always guarantees a huge DP drop for your opponent. I dont want to rely on a special attack to win my duels, I suggest either give all the dfa's the same properties or empower the real fakes somewhat.

[Sushi_CW]

The lunge is easy to counter if you're ready for it... it most definitely CAN be parried. And, if I recall, being parried on a lunge takes twice as long to recover from (or something like that). As long as it can be parried when you are in a slowbounce (I think so, since you can parry everything else) it is a fine move... just be ready for it. Just hold forward while in a slowbounce and dare the enemy to lunge you. The fact that they can't tell which way you are currently parrying works to your advantage here...

 

The DP regen pauses on the code server also goes a long way towards making it possible to kill someone without "special moves." If you're off your guard for more than a few seconds, you WILL get creamed fast. However, if both players are on the ball, fights can still last a pretty good amount of time.

 

I think that the way things are on the code server works great in terms of both FP and DP deaths. FP deaths only happen in very long battles... if we want more of those, we just need to turn down the FP regen speed (which I personally wouldn't mind). Since that is a server variable, it's easy for any server to tweak the FP regen to taste.

 

I've got to say, I'm very happy with the overall balance of saber combat at the moment.

[JRHockney*]

I've got to say, I'm very happy with the overall balance of saber combat at the moment.

 

I like everything except the backwards attack fake. And no matter what anyone says, IT CAN"T BE SWUNG AT PURPOSELY UNLESS YOU ANTICIPATE WELL IN ADVANCE!! Thats one reason why me and razor are still toying with the alternate swing idea.

[razorace]

Well, you know how much FP deaths annoy me. From my experience, I could be keeping my opponent in the red for an entire fight and just not be able to finish him off, and while I'm trying to finish him off, I end up losing all my FP. Hmmm, maybe we should make FP gain stop or even go down while a person is flashing red and the rest of the time, have it go a bit quicker than usual? This might help create a more accurate out come for fights when a person is taking hits like Rocky, but not fighting like him! LOL

Lunging solves that problem real quick. Just pin them down with a slow bounce and lunge them.

 

As for your suggestion, I don't see how that could ever work as a player would never be able to get back out of critical fatigue.

 

Yeah, it does make a cool finishing move when you kill someone with it, but it really wasn't meant as a finishing move. Razor gave the lunge some kind of special finishing ability if I remember right, maybe he could do the same for the attack fake, like making it do double damage when a person is in the DP red zone or something. But then again, we need to make sure we don't make it any more spammable than it already is, so we need to be careful about what we add too it.

The attack fakes are currently set up to be a parry-breaker only. We specifically removed the additional damage because it was overpowered.

 

I like everything except the backwards attack fake. And no matter what anyone says, IT CAN"T BE SWUNG AT PURPOSELY UNLESS YOU ANTICIPATE WELL IN ADVANCE!! Thats one reason why me and razor are still toying with the alternate swing idea.

Active countering isn't supposed to be easy anyway. I've found the easiest way to deal with an attack fake is to simply pause movement until the attack lands. After that, just start attacking them.

 

Anyway, as for the possibility of spamming lunge, that's partially why we're working on this alternative mishap system. Under the current concept ideas, slow bounces will be rarer and not auto triggered by parries.

[JRHockney*]

Lunging solves that problem real quick. Just pin them down with a slow bounce and lunge them.

 

Easier said then done. Good players just run away and dont swing.

 

As for your suggestion, I don't see how that could ever work as a player would never be able to get back out of critical fatigue.

 

Sure it would. I never said that the FP couldn't still fill the DP while in red, they would just lose it alot faster while in red and thus, making the losing player (the person who is in red most of the fight) be more likely to run out of FP first.

 

The attack fakes are currently set up to be a parry-breaker only. We specifically removed the additional damage because it was overpowered.

 

Yeah, although it still would make a cool finishing move. The way the attack fake is now, I agree that giving it any more power would not be such a good idea. However, I really think that keeping it "backwards" like it is is no longer needed with the new changes that were suggested by sushi. Making it parryable again, but making hits cause slowbounces plus added this idea would still keep it very useful and logical.

 

Anyway, as for the possibility of spamming lunge, that's partially why we're working on this alternative mishap system. Under the current concept ideas, slow bounces will be rarer and not auto triggered by parries.

 

Me and sushi were playing today and found out that it cant be parried while in slow bounce. This needs to change or it will be spammed constantly like we ended up doing to eachother. Maybe make it not blockable when in the red?

[razorace]

Easier said then done. Good players just run away and dont swing.

Attack fake them then.

 

Sure it would. I never said that the FP couldn't still fill the DP while in red, they would just lose it alot faster while in red and thus, making the losing player (the person who is in red most of the fight) be more likely to run out of FP first.

Oh, ok. I misunderstood what you meant. I'm still not really in favor of it because then you'd have this very tricky relatively FP scale that would feel weird to newbies and make balancing very hard to do.

 

Making it parryable again, but making hits cause slowbounces plus added this idea would still keep it very useful and logical.

That would dramatically affect it's effectiveness as an attack. The only reason why it works so well now is because players automatically try to parry based on initial reflex.

 

Maybe make it not blockable when in the red?

And unbalance red?

[JRHockney*]

Attack fake them then.

 

I do! Which brings me back to why I lose so much FP in the first place! LOL! Circular argument ftw! Or whatever that means!!

 

 

Oh, ok. I misunderstood what you meant. I'm still not really in favor of it because then you'd have this very tricky relatively FP scale that would feel weird to newbies and make balancing very hard to do.

 

Well, you would just have to stay out of the red not to be effected by it, especially if we increased the FP gain a slight bit. If they lose alot of FP, they where in the red too long and their lucky to be alive in the first place.

 

That would dramatically affect it's effectiveness as an attack. The only reason why it works so well now is because players automatically try to parry based on initial reflex.

 

Um... I'm actually worried that my ideas will make it more effective. I still play 0.0.9 at the tharagon server and its I'm reminded that its really not as easy to parry as I once thought. Heck, we could even make it so parrying it won't parry that attacker, but just reduce the damage done. Anything to get rid of this overcomplicated, unrealistic backwardsness. It just doesn't make any real life sense to have this as a double fake. And like I mentioned before, with sushi's ideas in, it probably isn't needed anyways. When I said this system couldn't become too overcomplicated, I lied. LOL!!

 

And unbalance red?

 

No, I meant in the red zone DP wise. This way it will do what it was meant to do without being spammable.

[Maxstate]

Lunge should definately be looked at, thats all Im asking. It reminds me of MB's current red style, just packed full of unexplainable big losses of DP.

[Sushi_CW]

I'd like to see the lunge parryable in slowbounce. It would still be useful, but it would give some incentive to mix it up with overhead swings so that the slowbounced defender can't just assume one or the other... but if he guesses/reacts correctly, he can save himself.

[Maxstate]

Hmm, just sparred with Saber a bit. Seems that winning against a real fake spammer is a 50/50 thing. Though I dont think it needs any reconsidering, I've been keeping a small journal/guide for my personal use (justlike the MB one) in which I write methods and tactics that can be used to fight off different kinds of fighters. I have two of them for real fake spammers/users and one of them always works.

[JRHockney*]

I just had an idea for the regular saber locks (not the disarm move using the saberlock anim idea. That will be seperate from this). Since quick locks happen alot in the movies, this idea will play off of that:

 

1. First, make all saber locks happen in default view.

2. Make the locks only lock in what ever place it started (this will distinguish it from the disarm move).

3. Any attempted swing will break it, including alt attacks. Whoever swings first will swing and look like he broke the anim. If this doesnt work, we can use the parry anim.

4. There are a few different types of saber lock anims right? Make each type of saber lock anim will get a certain alt attack with certain directon pressed combination that causes a knocked back or knock down depending on the losers DP. It will be based on whoever does it first. If both people press the right combo at the same time, they both get knocked back.

 

This idea should make standard saberlocks quicker, less annoying, more movie like, and require a good eye to take advantage of them.

[Maxstate]

I just had an idea for the regular saber locks (not the disarm move using the saberlock anim idea. That will be seperate from this). Since quick locks happen alot in the movies, this idea will play off of that:

 

1. First, make all saber locks happen in default view.

2. Make the locks only lock in what ever place it started (this will distinguish it from the disarm move).

3. Any attempted swing will break it, including alt attacks. Whoever swings first will swing and look like he broke the anim. If this doesnt work, we can use the parry anim.

4. There are a few different types of saber lock anims right? Make each type of saber lock anim will get a certain alt attack with certain directon pressed combination that causes a knocked back or knock down depending on the losers DP. It will be based on whoever does it first. If both people press the right combo at the same time, they both get knocked back.

 

This idea should make standard saberlocks quicker, less annoying, more movie like, and require a good eye to take advantage of them.

 

When I was scrolling through the anims yesterday I found this awesome saberlock anim where you see the loser getting kicked backwards. Not only does he fly a great distance he also tumbles a few times Best thing yet, I think I found the kick responsible for it.

[Sushi_CW]

So you'd have to memorize a different combination for each saberlock? I'm not sure I like that idea...

[JRHockney*]

So you'd have to memorize a different combination for each saberlock? I'm not sure I like that idea...

 

Well, the point is to make it hard to do. Saberlocks happen all the time in the movies with having a winner too often and making it too easy wouldn't be realistic. I suppose if it turns out to be too hard to ever do, we could set just one combination. And by combination, I mean just a particular would be swing with using the alt attack button instead. And I think theres only two or three saberlock anims anyways.

 

When I was scrolling through the anims yesterday I found this awesome saberlock anim where you see the loser getting kicked backwards. Not only does he fly a great distance he also tumbles a few times Best thing yet, I think I found the kick responsible for it.

 

Hmm, I havent seen that one. Of course alot of anims in there seem to be unused by the normal game. We should definitely use that one at some point.

[razorace]

Hmmm, that's an interesting idea. Maybe the move should just be to attack+move in the opposite direction of the saber lock. So, if your in a saber lock with the saber on the left, you'd press right+attack to win the move?

[JRHockney*]

Hmmm, that's an interesting idea. Maybe the move should just be to attack+move in the opposite direction of the saber lock. So, if your in a saber lock with the saber on the left, you'd press right+attack to win the move?

 

Wow, if that can be done, that could be even better. I had thought the same thing, but I was afraid of how much work it would end up being, but...great! It would probably be just hard enough to see what direction you have to press in time before the lock is broken to make it fairly rare as it should be. Although if it turns out to be too easy, we might have to rethink it a bit.

 

Its nice to finally have an good original move addition idea again. Its been a while for me.

[Vruki Salet]

I like the idea but think the moves should be more complex and involve combinations that need to be memorized. Give it some skill.

[Kyle Kelasheski]

Hello All,

 

My schedule being what it is, it's not too often that I get the opportunity to test out OJP E, and I'm sorry to say that so far I've yet to experience the latest working beta build, because whenever I try to play online, the server that hosts it is never up. Is there a chance to have the said server up more frequently, and for longer periods of time? I, and I'm sure others, would deeply appreciate such an expansion in the opportunity to test the latest build.

 

Being confined to working with v. 9's offline bot battles, I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised by following John's advice and boosting the "seta bot_fps" in the jampconfig to a figure of 100. I've only been able to play several matches with the new settings, but the bots have thoroughly kicked my fanny within a minute of starting the duels. Pretty impressive.

 

I have one question of concern regarding the setting of the fps to 100: is there any relation between setting the bots' fps and how quickly my computer's monitor is refreshed? The reason why I ask is that I know that the maximum safe fps setting for my monitor is 85, and that trying to run it past that figure can lead to some pretty unhappy consequences. Does the bot_fps influence the monitor's refresh settings in any way?

 

I just returned from a long trip to and from Ohio, and I have to get up early in the morning to help get things ready for my grandmother's surprise 80th. birthday party, so it's definately time for me to go to bed.

 

I hope that all's going well for you and your loved ones, and I hope to see you online soon!

 

Good night!

 

Kyle

May 7, 2006

 

[JRHockney*]

Being confined to working with v. 9's offline bot battles, I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised by following John's advice and boosting the "seta bot_fps" in the jampconfig to a figure of 100. I've only been able to play several matches with the new settings, but the bots have thoroughly kicked my fanny within a minute of starting the duels. Pretty impressive.

 

Also try the regular "sv_fps 100" command, g_saberBladeFaces 1, and the "d_saberinterpolate 2" command and you'll REALLY have solid fights. With these on, also try even having the g_saberanimspeed at 1.1 or 1.2! This make your combat as fast as the dual between obi and anakin!

 

I like the idea but think the moves should be more complex and involve combinations that need to be memorized. Give it some skill.

 

How about: up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, Start!!! Oh, wait. Thats Contra! LOL

 

Well, the right swing angle will probably be hard enough to see the right angle before someone breaks the lock. And as Razor has already mentioned that he will not do static button combinations. If this ends up becoming too easy, we might consider such a more difficult approach.