Saber system suggestions

[JRHockney*]

Has anyone noticed that the tabbots in 0.0.9p are ALOT harder? I think their attack parry/pushparry rate might be a little high because there are some cases where I can hardly get a hit in without being attack parried.

 

I also noticed that when i set the minforcerank to 50 like its suppose to be, none of the bots I spawned had sabers and I had to set it back to 100 to get them sabers.

 

Also, blue finally needs those slowbounce and I think heavybounces slowed down alot. They have less frames in them and are over so quickly they that they are twice as hard to kick or hit as any other style. Every time I fought a blue bot, he killed me. Bringing back the old DP damages with the exception of blue being the lowers would also help greatly. If you dont think blue is overpowered, I challenge anyone to try and fight a higher ranking blue style tabbot and win without them running out of DP or you spamming kick xp

 

Finally, Razor did you take out that heavybounce creating technique (by attackparrying an attackfake) that was in before, or did you release 0.0.9p before we added it? I was trying to do it on bots and it didnt seem to work. The more I think about it, attack fakes are probably too powerful and greatly benefit from having that in as far as balance. I mean attackfakes very often end up causing 3.25 times the normal DP damage because you can kick and hit their slowbounce alot.

[Maxstate]

I think that riposting a power attack should result in an instant disarm.

Feedback + visuals + useful riposting = WIN!

[razorace]

Has anyone noticed that the tabbots in 0.0.9p are ALOT harder? I think their attack parry/pushparry rate might be a little high because there are some cases where I can hardly get a hit in without being attack parried.

This is the result of me adding a set attack parry rate to the TABBots.

 

I also noticed that when i set the minforcerank to 50 like its suppose to be, none of the bots I spawned had sabers and I had to set it back to 100 to get them sabers.

I think this is due to the TABBots not taking many ranks in Force Seeing and the force validater is removing their Force Seeing ranks before their other force powers. Submit a bug ticket and I'll look into it.

 

Also, blue finally needs those slowbounce and I think heavybounces slowed down alot. They have less frames in them and are over so quickly they that they are twice as hard to kick or hit as any other style. Every time I fought a blue bot, he killed me.

The blue bounce animations have the exact same frame count and animation speed. I looked over everything and I don't see any difference. It's probably just the interpolation between the stand animation and the bounce animations and only a visual thing.

 

Finally, Razor did you take out that heavybounce creating technique (by attackparrying an attackfake) that was in before, or did you release 0.0.9p before we added it? I was trying to do it on bots and it didnt seem to work. The more I think about it, attack fakes are probably too powerful and greatly benefit from having that in as far as balance. I mean attackfakes very often end up causing 3.25 times the normal DP damage because you can kick and hit their slowbounce alot.

I removed it since it seemed like a balancing exception to something we haven't determined to be a balance issue in the first place. :| Plus it was pretty hacky the way I tried it. We can do it better later if we decide to.

 

As for the attack fakes doing too much damage, I'm not sure it's an issue since this requires an amount of skill on the part of the attacker and the defender has to not parry or attack parry the attack for it to occur.

[JRHockney*]

This is the result of me adding a set attack parry rate to the TABBots.

 

We should probably lower it then or change how its done or something. I mean its definitely needed, but it makes bots so hard that even I have a very hard defeating them. Imagine have noobs will feel.

 

The blue bounce animations have the exact same frame count and animation speed. I looked over everything and I don't see any difference. It's probably just the interpolation between the stand animation and the bounce animations and only a visual thing.

 

I'm telling you its faster and it has been since 0.0.9a. Even Chosen noticed this as well:

 

Yet another thing to note is that blue/teal stance have a very short slowbounce(? Not sure if that's what it's called), meaning being defensive against those forms is fruitless.

 

If it was just a visual thing, none of us would have as much trouble hitting it or kicking it like we have for a long time. Whatevers wrong with it, that animation needs to slow down. Blue would be overpowered enough with it slower anyways and that really saying something . If you dont believe me, try my challenge that I listed above.

 

I think that riposting a power attack should result in an instant disarm.

Feedback + visuals + useful riposting = WIN!

 

Mmmm, I think that might be a little too penalizing to attackfakes. A disarm that has nothing to do with the mishap meter should still be pretty hard to do. Maybe for blue style though

 

I removed it since it seemed like a balancing exception to something we haven't determined to be a balance issue in the first place. :| Plus it was pretty hacky the way I tried it. We can do it better later if we decide to.

 

Oh yeah, how many heavybounces do you see in a given match? I'm lucky if I see even one or two even in trying to do it against bots (who swing spam enough to do that anyways) and that is not enough to warrant any new person to try and learn a disarm conversion when they rarely see it or probably havent had it demonstrated very well since it so hard to demostrate (half the time, its just not worth the frustation of getting someone in a heavybounce to do so). Atm, just about everything begins and ends with the kick as far as how you cause a heavy mishap. This is a fair and balanced exception that allows one of the coolest features we've come up with to actually be learned. With no kick block the attack fake is just potentially too powerful and needs something like this to balance it out. Heck, Maxstate just suggested it be a disarm and I'm being conservative when I say thats too much! lol. I say even though I dont like hacks either, its still better than not having it. Without you in OJP, we might end up having to do a lot of hacks for new features

[razorace]

I'm telling you its faster and it has been since 0.0.9a. Even Chosen noticed this as well:

Oh, wait, the issue must be with the "return" slow bounces instead of the actual bounce animations. I'll reopen the bug ticket and I'll fix the issue.

 

Oh yeah, how many heavybounces do you see in a given match? I'm lucky if I see even one or two even in trying to do it against bots (who swing spam enough to do that anyways) and that is not enough to warrant any new person to try and learn a disarm conversion.

If that's a problem, we could extend the range of MP levels at which heavy bounces occur.

[JRHockney*]

Oh, wait, the issue must be with the "return" slow bounces instead of the actual bounce animations. I'll reopen the bug ticket and I'll fix the issue.

 

Yep I think thats the one. Its rediculously quick.

 

If that's a problem, we could extend the range of MP levels at which heavy bounces occur.

 

That would definitely help, but I don't think it would be as cool or as useful as the way I suggested it. The attackfakes need an equalizer, disarm conversions need a "do only" situation to be efficently used more, and we need an easier way of demonstrating them to noobs that doesnt involve getting their mishap meter "just right."

 

Also I just remembered something. I mentioned a while ago that the tabbots in duel gametype only seem to use purple style and occasionally blue. Did you ever get around to fixing that?

 

Lastly, have we given up on adding the back block animations?

[Maxstate]

So what if it's penalizing?

 

It's already really hard to riposte a power attack, and this would only prevent it from being spammed and give the already-spammed a chance to get out of it.

 

Plus it's movielike and it looks sweeeeeeet.

[razorace]

That would definitely help, but I don't think it would be as cool or as useful as the way I suggested it. The attackfakes need an equalizer, disarm conversions need a "do only" situation to be efficently used more, and we need an easier way of demonstrating them to noobs that doesnt involve getting their mishap meter "just right."

For me, it seems like an "exception" that isn't needed. I mean, attack fakes are pretty counterable simply by attacking the attack fake or parrying.

 

Also I just remembered something. I mentioned a while ago that the tabbots in duel gametype only seem to use purple style and occasionally blue. Did you ever get around to fixing that?

I've never noticed that. I do know that there were some branch merging issues previously involving the stance changing but I think that was resolved. Doublecheck it and post a bug ticket if it's still around.

 

Lastly, have we given up on adding the back block animations?

Ask Vruki, he was the one working on that stuff. I haven't heard from him in a while so it's probably not going to make v0.1.0.

 

So what if it's penalizing?

It just seems like too much. If we did that, we'd be having the same complaints like I got when the attack parries did saber locks.

[Maxstate]

It just seems like too much. If we did that, we'd be having the same complaints like I got when the attack parries did saber locks.

 

I really don't think so, taking a note from MB:

They have a manual Blocking button, if your enemy hits you and doesn't hold block after his slash he is prone to a disarm. All you need to do is manually block into a position in which your saber will hit his. There wasn't any timing involved or anything.

 

People didn't press block after all strikes because the longer you held your button the more damage the slash did. I'm comparing OJP power attacks to MB power attacks. Power attacks work very well if your opponent doesn't expect them or is unable to parry them, which is quite often unless you're fighting bots.

 

What I'm saying is that normal combat won't be affected by this at all, if someone decides to start spamming Power attacks, and his enemy gets enough of it he can attempt to riposte his to disarm his opponent.

 

Opposite to saberlocks, disarms won't leave you frozen, bounced or knocked over. After a disarm you can still freely walk and run, jump around even.

And after 2 seconds you can recall your saber and just continue fighting!

 

I don't see how this is penalizing power attacks, power attacks shouldn't be used all the time anyway. Currently if you're fighting an opponent with a worse ping you can beat him easily by spamming power attackins, locking, kicking them away and before they can react power attack them again.

 

They're unable to parry them usually and get killed after 3 or so power attacks, with a superbreak.

 

Adding this disarm feature in will really bring more feeling into the saberplay, you'll even have more feedback since you can see the effects of your well timed action in spades.

Manual blocking was a great feature in MB and provided versatility, I don't like seeing disarms being so 'chance-oriented', I really really really feel that this feature could mean a lot to saberplay.

 

Not just for the visual effect, or the rush of actually disarming your opponent with a quick fake, but for the use of getting out of power attack spam fests before you die. And let me tell you, power attack locks are still death reason #1 in OJP.

[JRHockney*]

While I agree with maxstate in principle, I still think a heavy bounce is enough so it makes you work a little harder. But I still support doing something here for his reason and the reasons I mentioned above.

[Maxstate]

While I agree with maxstate in principle, I still think a heavy bounce is enough so it makes you work a little harder. But I still support doing something here for his reason and the reasons I mentioned above.

(get on msn in like 1 hour, I'm at computer workshop at school currently, I'll be home by then ;D)

 

I think that hitting someone's saber while he bounces should have a different effect. I don't know what at the moment, I'm exhausted, had to make another 5 cases to be able to get my deadline today

 

I can also playtest for the next 10 hours after I get home to about 1-2 AM, so if anyone feels like some good fighting and discussion about the features you can meet me at a server called "Srsly" which will hopefully be upped at the time I get home. If not, zerg Jask's server

[razorace]

I don't see how this is penalizing power attacks, power attacks shouldn't be used all the time anyway. Currently if you're fighting an opponent with a worse ping you can beat him easily by spamming power attackins, locking, kicking them away and before they can react power attack them again.

If they're lagging that badly, how would they be able to attack parry the attack fake in the first place?

[Sushi_CW]

About TabBots being hard:

Sure they are... if you put them on Jedi Master. Here's what I'd like to see for the TabBots:

 

Initiate and Padawan bots shouldn't attack parry at all.

Initiates shouldn't have any cheat parries at all.

From Padawan to Jedi Master, the amount of cheat parries should gradually increase.

Jedi and below shouldn't have any attack parries.

Jedi Knight should have rare attack parries, Jedi Master should have about what they do now (maybe SLIGHTLY less).

 

I have no problem with the highest-level bots being extremely difficult to defeat. It's fun.

 

About attack fakes being too powerful:

I think they're fine. They're powerful, but difficult to pull off consistently, especially against an opponent who stays in your face.

 

About blue style (and saber balancing in general):

I've noticed that with my mishap meter changes, it isn't such a big deal. Blue hits hard and fast, but runs the mishap meter up more quickly as a result. Since I have it set so that parrying doesn't reduce your mishap by 3 each time, the accidental parries that happen while attacking someone don't make your mishap meter drop so quickly. Bottom line: if parries don't cause mishap meter decrease, blue isn't so overpowered (and Red isn't so underpowered... it becomes a balance-preserving style).

And don't try to tell me that making it so that parries decrease don't decrease the mishap bar unbalances saber combat. I've tried it, and it doesn't. I think it significantly improves and balances it, which is why I'm keeping the changes I've made for all of my solo games.

 

About heavy bounces being rare:

See comments above.

[Maxstate]

If they're lagging that badly, how would they be able to attack parry the attack fake in the first place?

It's more the fact that they have to go through the backflip anim that you get when you get kicked back, then take that and add the pings to it and presto! You have frustration!

 

Rache can do it very well, I'll let him loose on you soon and you'll know what I'm talking about.

 

 

On a different note:

 

Just because you guys can't re-create some problems or bugs doesn't mean they're not there. We have a small playerbase and a lot of them don't even submit bugs, and I don't think any of us can find ALL the bugs out there.

There are some bugs that I never noticed untill someone didn't use a different attack strategy on me.

 

What I'm getting too is that you shouldn't discard things that don't sound plausible so fast. In MB, a lot of bugs were clear from the beginning because they had a lot of players who were ready and willing to report them. A lot of players all using a different method of attack, a different tactic. This resulted in many bugs being traced and found.

 

We don't have that luxury (yet!), so I advise you 1337 coders to listen to the people who DO play the mod and report imbalances.

[JRHockney*]

Initiate and Padawan bots shouldn't attack parry at all.

Initiates shouldn't have any cheat parries at all.

From Padawan to Jedi Master, the amount of cheat parries should gradually increase.

Jedi and below shouldn't have any attack parries.

Jedi Knight should have rare attack parries, Jedi Master should have about what they do now (maybe SLIGHTLY less).

 

I like it.

 

About attack fakes being too powerful:

I think they're fine. They're powerful, but difficult to pull off consistently, especially against an opponent who stays in your face.

 

Yeah its just hard to play defensively without swing spaming to prevent them. If they do get an attack fake in, you looking at a potential 3.25 times the normal damage.

 

About heavy bounces being rare:

See comments above.

 

? Which ones?

[razorace]

It's more the fact that they have to go through the backflip anim that you get when you get kicked back, then take that and add the pings to it and presto! You have frustration!

My point was that doing any sort of change to the attack parry behavior isn't going to help players with lag issues.

 

Just because you guys can't re-create some problems or bugs doesn't mean they're not there. We have a small playerbase and a lot of them don't even submit bugs, and I don't think any of us can find ALL the bugs out there.

There are some bugs that I never noticed untill someone didn't use a different attack strategy on me.

I've been trying to be very methodical about following up on reported bugs, even when a LOT of them are due to user error.

 

It's just when we discuss balance issues is when I'm more spectical. Unfortunately, balance is sort of subjective. So people tend to get in circular arguements about things.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

I really don't think so, taking a note from MB:

They have a manual Blocking button, if your enemy hits you and doesn't hold block after his slash he is prone to a disarm. All you need to do is manually block into a position in which your saber will hit his. There wasn't any timing involved or anything.

 

Just for the record, this is incorrect.

In MB, M-blocks only disarm if you hit the opposing saber within 'X' milliseconds of starting the M-block. So there is most definately timing involved.

 

..it's been that way since M-blocks existed.

[JRHockney*]

I was just playing FFA and I noticed that I didn't enter dodge when I got hit in a kick. Is that intentially changed? If it is, we're just begging for kick spam. Just parry 2 or 3 times and kick and hit with no risk whatsoever. Thats not right at all. If your trying to make it easier for a lone dueler in power duel, I would make it so that you can block the opposite side of where you kicking, but the way it is now will just be spammed to hell.

 

And, at the risk of beating a dead horse, I still haven't given up on that heavybounce idea. There's just too many good reasons for it that make it superior to just increasing the heavybounce range. So what if the game is playable without it. Its playable without superbreaks and even attackfakes but that doesnt mean we shouldn't have those. This is a good way to add depth to what is mostly a "every easy heavy mishap begins with kick" (with the exception of maxing out) gameplay. This creates a situation where attemping a conversion is the best way to go since with the other way, kick is the most sure thing. Take that, horse!!! And that!!! And that!!!

[razorace]

I don't understand what your issue with the kicks is. Please explain.

[Maxstate]

I don't understand what your issue with the kicks is. Please explain.

He's saying that it's near impossible to hit someone and make them dodge when they kick.

 

I agree, I've noticed this in my duels too.

 

I'd also like to ask for a better kick skill that just enlarges the area of effect slightly so kicking people would be a bit easier, if ofcourse you're not too pre-occupied with other things.

[razorace]

I suppose we could make Dodge kick work until the player is in the heavy mishap range if it's really a problem.

 

As for increasing the kick area of effect, it's already using ghoul2 tracing for the kicks so it's only counting kicks that actually connect with the other players.

[JRHockney*]

I suppose we could make Dodge kick work until the player is in the heavy mishap range if it's really a problem.

 

That would be fine. I do still like that idea of being able to block on the opposite side of wherever your kicking though. It would help for two on one without overpowering anything.

[razorace]

So if you're kicking in one direction, your saber is technically blocking in other direction?

[JRHockney*]

So if you're kicking in one direction, your saber is technically blocking in other direction?

 

Yeah, kind of like how the double damage for back hits works. You can block Your back half that is opposite the direction of the kick. If you don't block in this area, your dodge activates just like it use to for all hits on your kicks. This way, if your getting double teamed and they are on both sides of you, you can kick one person on one side of you while blocking the other side and perfect timing is only required for kicking the person your trying to kick rather than timing a gap between both of them.

[razorace]

Hmmm, I like the idea, but I'm not sure how complicated it would be to impliment. Submit a bug ticket and I'll check it out.