razorace Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 Ace, you still making Long Dfa's knockdown? And are you still adding a bit more damage to the regular ones? Add a task ticket please. I keep forgetting to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRHockney* Posted January 6, 2007 Author Share Posted January 6, 2007 I've noticed a few things about the attackfake (power feint). Originally I thought we made it so that it cashes in on wherever your mishap bar is and made the resulting mishap based on that. The last time I tested it, I noticed that it caused a slowbounce no matter where the meter was with the exception of maybe or 90% which caused a big mishap. I was thinking that maybe we could make the attackfake a true mishap cash in move by making it so that if you get hit with an attackfake when your mishap meter is at its lowest level, it doesnt cause a slowbounce. I was also thinking that we should make sure an unparried attackfake causes a true heavybounce that is vulnerable to conversion. Also, the issue of it being too easy to run away has been brought up a few times and I'm stating to agree, since it could cause annoyances in seige and just normal duels. I chased jack around when he got relavily low DP and he was usuallly recharge before I could even get more than one hit on him. I suggest making the DP meter only regenerate at 1/2 speed while running. This might also solve the problem we've been having of the blaster weapons not doing nearly enough DP damage to be useful. And yes, my support of tweaking the attackparries to happen less randomly or easily still stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackBaldy Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 And I didn't even bother doing that with the obviously overpowered saber + jet pack combination And by unparried attack fake causing heavy bounces you mean it causing heavy bounces when they are in the correct range for heavy bounces and the attack fake is not parried? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sushi_CW Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 I like the way that attack fakes work right now in terms of causing mishaps... they're just a tad bit buggy. I think the problem is that the mishap regen doesn't pause properly during the saberlock that happens when an attack fake is landed, which is probably why heavy bounces are so hard to cause from attack fakes. The problem isn't that attack fakes aren't balanced right, it's that all the bugs haven't been worked out yet. I don't think that running should cause DP to regen slower. Duelers SHOULD be able to use a tactical retreat. I know that low-DP players are supposed to be vulnerable to force powers, at least while running away. Is that not working? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackBaldy Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 Tactical retreat? I guess you mean turning around whenever you want (minus the extremes, meaning red dodge points) is a 'tactical retreat.' See I would have no problem with people retreating weren't it for that retreating in O.J.P. is the easiest thing to do in the world in my opinion and I don't think it should be less difficult for a retreater than it is for a chaser. And as for Attack fakes causing mishaps, right now, they really don't do it well as Hocks stated. It may or may not be bugs, but rarely do you get a mishap out of an attack fake and I think it has to do with the fact that it goes into a saber lock almost every time it lands, and when it doesn't then I am pretty sure it acts like it used to before saber locks with attack fakes were introduced. Anyways Sushi, if you got the demonstration I showed Hocks, I am pretty sure you'd changed your mind *edit* I have found out that demonstrations in game work far better than petty squabbles at the forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxstate Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 I like the way that attack fakes work right now in terms of causing mishaps... they're just a tad bit buggy. I think the problem is that the mishap regen doesn't pause properly during the saberlock that happens when an attack fake is landed, which is probably why heavy bounces are so hard to cause from attack fakes. The problem isn't that attack fakes aren't balanced right, it's that all the bugs haven't been worked out yet. I don't think that running should cause DP to regen slower. Duelers SHOULD be able to use a tactical retreat. I know that low-DP players are supposed to be vulnerable to force powers, at least while running away. Is that not working? When we tweak absorb, when Force Sprint comes into the mod, when people stop dodging lightsaber attacks with their shields and HP and just die, which will hopefully be for the next release, I think it'll be sorted out just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackBaldy Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 When we tweak absorb, when Force Sprint comes into the mod, when people stop dodging lightsaber attacks with their shields and HP and just die, which will hopefully be for the next release, I think it'll be sorted out just fine. Can't you technically crank up saber damage for instant kills? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRHockney* Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 Anyways Sushi, if you got the demonstration I showed Hocks, I am pretty sure you'd changed your mind Yeah, its pretty silly how fast it can be regained. Running away will still be plenty possible with this tweak, but it will make seige gameplay, duels, and blaster damage alot more reasonable. Can't you technically crank up saber damage for instant kills? We might be able to, but I thought Razor Orginally set the damage to the max. It might have to do with how it hits. And as for Attack fakes causing mishaps, right now, they really don't do it well as Hocks stated. Well, about 90-95%+ of the mishap fullness is about were those big mishaps happen in our testing. Its just hard to get it there. When we tweak absorb, when Force Sprint comes into the mod, when people stop dodging lightsaber attacks with their shields and HP and just die, which will hopefully be for the next release, I think it'll be sorted out just fine. Those will definitly help alot (depending on how we tweak absorb). Hopefully we'll find a way to get around extremely overpowered combinaitons like lightning and flamethrower as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 I think the problem is that the mishap regen doesn't pause properly during the saberlock that happens when an attack fake is landed, which is probably why heavy bounces are so hard to cause from attack fakes. Task ticket it. We might be able to, but I thought Razor Orginally set the damage to the max. It might have to do with how it hits. It is. A single full-on lightsaber hit will kill a player twice over. The rub is that partial dodges proportionally reduce the damage of the dodged attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackBaldy Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 I meant by cranking up g_saberdamagescale to very high numbers. I haven't tried this yet though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackBaldy Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 With some of the little testing that I am doing with the bot, cranking up damage pretty much eliminates that partial rubbing/reduced damage and you get the kill instead. Although I would have to test with a human opponent for more conclusive results. *edit* Isn't the reduced damage from partial dodges intended though? I thought it was for health and armor to matter, that is why I never tried this before. Fights do look more clean because you don't see any of the saber rubbing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxstate Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 A few tips: Ripostes should cost 2 fp to do. Loads of reasons for this, first is that it can be spammed like no tomorrow, there's no reason not to riposte every one of your opponent's slashes. Second is that it's forcing people only to go for the uppercut slashes because they are parried harder, slashes to the upperbody are practically useless to someone who's mastered riposte. Third, it just makes parrying obsolete since the 1 fp you spend on riposting can be regained back really easily since your opponent is frozen. ----- DFA's should cost less to do and should be more to the ground as to make them easier to aim. Dfa'ing someone with a long dfa (like red's DFA, the jumping one) will result in a knockdown if not parried. ---- question (Blaster rifle projectiles seem very loose and chaotic some how, anyone have an idea why and how it should be fixed?) ----- Quick deflect fix solution: Saber defense 0: No deflecting, dodges blaster shots. Saber defense 1: Deflects blaster shots in random directions. Saber defense 2: Reflects 30% of blaster shots towards the crosshair. Blaster shots up your mishap by 1 mp per 10 shots. No reflecting possible above half mishap. Saber defense 3: Reflects 50% of blaster shots the crosshair. Blaster shots up your mishap by 1 mp per 10 shots. No reflecting possible at 3/4 mishap. Simple, yet effective I guess. ---- I'd also like to ask for blaster shots to be mildy slowed down to mimmick the movies more and to have a better feel ingame, they're currently just too fast. Rockets as well, their payload should be further increased but they should be slowed down just a tad. ---- Detpacks should drain ALL DP from a jedi. ---- ---- Thermals should do direct HP damage. ---- ---- Fall damage should be increased. PERIOD. I jumped down the elevator shaft in SJC's invisible hand shaft, all the way to the bottom and still had 47 hp!!!! FROM 100! That's like a near-200 foot fall! ---- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackBaldy Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 I don't think that increasing the force power to attack parrying is such a good idea, and I will tell you why. Attack parries being extremely easy to do ever since they were changed from what they used to be, sometimes you do unintentional attack parries, hell who am I kidding? You do plenty of unintentional attack parries because they are so easy to do. I don't think it would be fair to punish someone for the system's mistake. I would rather just see attack parries in general be made more difficult to do like they were in the past, then it would not conflict with offensive saberists (In the past you couldn't just hold attack and attack parry, much like you can now, and if force power is increased for those then attackers will get burdened with low force power). I am pretty sure if attack parries were changed back to the way they were, there wouldn't be much of a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxstate Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 I don't think that increasing the force power to attack parrying is such a good idea, and I will tell you why. Attack parries being extremely easy to do ever since they were changed from what they used to be, sometimes you do unintentional attack parries, hell who am I kidding? You do plenty of unintentional attack parries because they are so easy to do. I don't think it would be fair to punish someone for the system's mistake. I would rather just see attack parries in general be made more difficult to do like they were in the past, then it would not conflict with offensive saberists (In the past you couldn't just hold attack and attack parry, much like you can now, and if force power is increased for those then attackers will get burdened with low force power). I am pretty sure if attack parries were changed back to the way they were, there wouldn't be much of a problem. I timed myself today, I had 70 dp, same as the bot I was fighting and I held out for 2 minutes with only parrying. The bot could recooperate so fast and start attacking so soon again that I didn't stand a chance without being totally fresh and alert to parry his attacks. The times that I DID manage to hold out longer, were also the times that the bot ran out of FP. Funny thing is this: Then I tried riposting. .. I did not ONCE die when I was using ripostes. MY DP never dropped below 50, my FP was around 90-100 and my mishap was totally low, while the bot drained his FP fully and had gotten fatigued. And these didn't include unintentional ripostes. I'm sure that if we increase FP cost for every succesful riposte (meaning if y ou fake, and parry, and you parry your opponent) that people won't be tempted to use riposte as often as they do now. Riposting is a tool that should be used carefully when in need, and when necessary to get out of a vicious combo or something of the sort, it shouldn't be on the same ground as parrying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackBaldy Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 It is obvious that attack parrying makes you survive more, parrying normally is more to cash in on mishaps. But the thing is, if attack parries stay the same, and force power is increased, then there will be a lot of unintentional attack parries thus resulting in your losing a lot of your force power even when you weren't trying to attack parry. I just suggest making it like it was before, thus making it more difficult, thus it not happening very much and unintentionally like it happens now. And if that is still not enough, then put in the 2 force point cost. But if you skip step one and put in the force cost as the system is now, then we get a lot of unintentional attack parries and as a result of that a lot unintentional lost of force points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRHockney* Posted January 8, 2007 Author Share Posted January 8, 2007 Yeah after alot of play testing, I'm more in favor of just changing how we do attackparrries in general then penalizing them with fp loss (maybe fp loss after we change it though). I mean you can practically do them even while youre just swinging if you realize you have to parry a hit at the last second when you've already started a swing (which is kind of cheesey and annoying since the attacker swang first), and they just happen unintentionally alot as well. I say change them back to the way they were, or find a better way that does not have the problems these do atm. If we change it back to the way it was, we should probably just make attacks and startfakes override the preblocks if thats possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sushi_CW Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 What exactly was "the way it was before?" I didn't realize anything had changed... tapping attack just as someone hits and doing it in the correct parry direction, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackBaldy Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 What exactly was "the way it was before?" I didn't realize anything had changed... tapping attack just as someone hits and doing it in the correct parry direction, right? Before that was the only way to do it. Timing a basic fake while moving in the correct parry direction. Now it can happen even if you are holding attack and you have a much bigger window to do it also. That's why it happens so many times unintentionally. Even new folks who just start playing this game and just hold attack may get many unintentional attack parries because of how big the window is and how it can happen if you hold attack. They can even happen on the returns of attacks. Like I said before, I would first like to see attack parries made more/exactly like in the past or just more difficult in general then add any penalties that might be needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRHockney* Posted January 8, 2007 Author Share Posted January 8, 2007 What exactly was "the way it was before?" I didn't realize anything had changed... tapping attack just as someone hits and doing it in the correct parry direction, right? Nope, that sometimes works though. When we added the preblock animations, it messed up that old version. To make them work again with the preblocks, Razor changed it so that it works if you hold attack while you are in a preblock animation or in a startfake animation. I thought they were ok at first, but for many of the reasons stated I think we need to change them back or to something else without those problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sushi_CW Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 OK, that sounds about right. What about making them only happen if you hit the parry direction exactly? Right now, they work with the one-direction-off idea that normal parries do. Maybe attack parries should only happen when you get the parry direction exactly right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackBaldy Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 That would involve in changing the whole way that the parry system works if my assumptions are correct. I would rather see an effort put to bringing it back to the way it was, where there were not big problems like there is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 We can't go back without removing the preblock animations like Hocky mentioned. Sushi's suggestion might work OR I suggest that we might just want to make the player hold down primary + secondary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRHockney* Posted January 10, 2007 Author Share Posted January 10, 2007 OR I suggest that we might just want to make the player hold down primary + secondary. I suppose we might end up with the occasional unintended attackparry when we try a attackfake, but I doubt that would happen often. This idea would probably be a better way to go since it would be more complex and solve the main issues we have now. The only problem is that the windup for the attack fake is a bit longer than a normal startfake which might make the move easier to do. If we can prove that its not easier to do or create a shorter window for the attackparry in that situation, I think this might be the best solution I've heard so far with keeping the preblocks. As for Sushi's idea, I think it would end up causing the same problem of unintentional attack parries and make doing them right the first time too hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackBaldy Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 I don't know, it might just work, but it may end up being very easy still... We'll have to wait and see I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxstate Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 I'm still up for both mine and Sushi's ideas since the pre-block anims were something me and Vruki always dreamed about. He had plans that could've included this, too bad he doesn't have internets anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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