balance

[shaded6]

"In the metaphysical or conceptual sense, balance is used to mean a point between two opposite forces that is desirable over purely one state or the other, such as a balance between the metaphysical Law and Chaos — law by itself being overly controlling, chaos being overly unmanageable, balance being the point that minimizes the negatives of both."

 

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=2krs0ftn7f71q?tname=balance-metaphysics&method=6&sbid=lc06a

 

"negatives of both" implies a certain acknowledgement that not everything is the way it is or has to be; especially if it is throwing things off balance. why do i have to be part of a system for doing good or a system that says i can do what i want; being if i want to do good or can do good because i understand what good is; i cant, because i am neither Sith nor Jedi? yeah, the Sith, in their history have been known for their history, just like the Jedi. and balance is a Jedi teaching, who where most of the Sith came from in learning about balance. why is it i cannot find balance between both? because no one else has sought to know the nature of how things really are or can be? i am the only one who has the choice to do what it is i think best for myself. you get caught up in doing good for others, without even understanding what good is, your not even helping yourself who wants to understand. how can you teach a method to someone if you dont understand it yourself?

 

if i become consumed by the dark side, it is for one of many reasons, the main one; because i let it consume me. and if you can understand all the emotions and thoughts that say can lead you down the dark side dont you think you can learn to be balanced by them because you understand how the dark side can consume you; does this mean they will never come up again if learn to control them? what if i learn to control these emotions and use them for a good cause, without having to embrace them for an evil cause? because you say so? why? you've been there?

 

so ultimately the Jedi and the Sith are oppossed by one another, you prove that with your opinion more then you know; when, they do NOT have to be, they only choose to be, and that has nothing to do with me; but because they choose to be, they bring imbalance to themselves and everyone else they are trying to help. they are oppossed by eachother for their opinion, understanding and nature, so much, it causes war, death and chaos. why would i be involved with that if i were seeking balance and all that balance is in nature? balance of oneself, ones thoughts, ones ideas, ones nature, ones ability and ones way of going about doing it.

 

seth

[BattleDog]

Problem: You are using real world evidence and relating it back to Star Wars, this isn't maths, it's religion. The Dark Side is a corruption of the Force, not a facet of it. The Force just is, there is no light and dark in the Force. Besides the point has been proven again and again. If you want balance in real life become a Budhist,

[shaded6]

lol, i was going to mention the whole buddist thing this morning. lol. yeah, been down that road, mindfullness didnt give me enlightenment, so i started seeking God. anyways.

 

so no one can bring balance between both sides of the force?

 

yes, i understand this is NOT real, that it is star wars, but, this doesnt mean we cant use real situations on how we veiw all of this. if we can use fictional ones, why cant we use real ones?

 

seth

[BattleDog]

We can't use real situations to prove a point against what goes on in-universe. You can't worship God and the Devil and the same is true here.

 

Don't fall into the trap of trying to make teh Force be what you want it to be.

[shaded6]

i agree. **** the devil.

 

but how does someone control their emotions so they dont get the best of them?

 

i think i need to do more research on myself then giving my opinion. i got into a big argument with Darth Terros about stupid **** and in a way it did effect me, even though i tried not to let it. i sought balance, but i endulged myself in anger, rage and all that.

 

yeah i dont see me controlling God anytime soon so i mean i guess i have to come to His terms. but this does not mean i cannot find balance between emotions that can lead to "the dark side."

 

i wont get into what the extent of our conversation was, but it got me thinking enough to wonder what the **** am i actually doing. spending too much time in these forums is one of them. spending too much time on star wars is another. and throwing out things i only think i understand is the last.

 

balance not only relies on myself, we all need to come to a conclusion that we are powerless over what we indulge ourselves in, especially our emotions and how we harness them. my point by trying to bring both codes together was to find a balance between the emotions i had, the passion i had, the peace i wanted, and everything they both explain. your not evil for letting your emotions out, only if they are evil and you embrace them, this is how the Sith are evil, reguardless of anything else said. i already knew this but i wanted to accomplish what no one else wanted to consider. i wanted true balance. i didnt expect to come here and be accepted for that, this is a ficitionate forum, granted, but the principle of the Sith and the Jedi are very real in life, with the exception that people dont just walk around and murder people, they do, but not to take over the world. and i understand the intoxicating emotion behind hate and anger and all that. "there is no fear in love; instead, perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment." 1 john 4:18 balance doesnt involve star wars, star wars doesnt involve God and balance relies on knowing what it means to be at peace, in perfect love; not hate or anger; the ways of the Sith. so how do we control these emotions before they take over?

 

seth

[DarthDeceptus]

While I do agree with you I think Kreia pushes the ultra-pessimistic view. I also think that you need to remember that she is evil and trying to force you down a path you might not want to walk.

I don't deny that doing things for people weakens them but I believe that helping them can alow them to grow stronger. Lets say you were being beaten up by three guys in the street, now I could help you, but according to you that would weaken you.

The chances are that without help you will lose anf they'll take your money. All you learn is that helping people is pointless because they never help you. Now lets say I do help you, I can't beat up all three guys and neither can you but together we might manage it.

What have you learned? That helping people is worth it because someone was there to help you. I haven't weakened you because the experience wouldn't have made you stronger, just more pessimistic.

So you are following a pessimistis view, whether you know it or not.

 

Well, I myself don't think that Kreia is evil. Her spirit is broken, she uses dark side, perhaps, but not evil. I think that Kreia never 'fell' (she did use the dark side, but one must learn all aspects of a thing to completely understand it). Looking into the aspects of the force, then force doesn't guides us, it simply controls us, and as such, give us our destiny. Then, one helping another would shurely weaken them both. One small action, whether be it cruel or good, can change the future of entire galaxy. Following this, then helping another is just weaking them. It is this reason, although I don't agree with them, that Jedi meditate and think of every thing and don't rush into an open battle. I do, personaly think that meditating on something also weakens us.

 

And Seth, I do believe you're right. I myself, am much more close to the Sith way from the sw I do believe there are no right or wrong side of the force. Jedi, Sith are just titles, it is our intentions and goals that drives us being evil or good. Light side and Dark side are just different sides of the same coin and can't function without one another. Balance always must be maintained. It is the same in real life. There must always be good and there must always be evil, for in absence of evil, good would, as it always has, corrupt and again make more evil. Btw, I don't believe the Sith to be evil just becose they drive towards another code and idea. I don't believe that dark side is a perversion of the force, I imagine it much more close to the weapon, and light side much more close to the tool (knife is a tool, but it can be weapon, but it's not evil, in it's nature).

 

And, lastly, I do believe that emotions, in all it's forms, can't take over us, we just simply gives them power to.

 

i got into a big argument with Darth Terros about stupid **** and in a way it did effect me, even though i tried not to let it. i sought balance, but i endulged myself in anger, rage and all that.

 

It is normal, if you disagree with someone to try and compete over his/her thinking. That way, you show him/her that you are right and stronger on that field. It is part of everyones life and it is part of galaxy and life itself.

Giving yourself to the anger is nothing bad. Soughting balance is good, but you must express your opinion, and yourself. Anger, rage, in real life, or SW can't give us to the dark side, our heart choses that and once we become one with the dark side, it is willingly. You feel it, yes, anger, rage gives you focus. You must take care not to lose your control. But, you should also fuel your emotions. That brings joy in life.

 

 

[D.J.]

In a nutshell:

Sith philosophy: Serve yourself only by whatever means possible--"it's all about me!"

Jedi philosophy: Serve others--helping others become better in life helps you to become better in life as well.

The 2 philosophies are mutually exclusive. You cannot serve yourself utterly completely _and_ serve others at the same time. If I'm a Sith doing whatever I want to advance my personal agenda, even if that means hurting or destroying others, then how is that helping others at the same time along the lines of the Jedi code? If I'm busy destroying people, then I'm incapable of helping them. You cannot take two diametrically opposed philosophies and combine them to make some watered down middle of the road kind of philosophy. You can do one or the other, but not both at the same time.

 

About sith and jedi philosophy; someone does not have to be a sith to serve him or her self, nor beeing a sith makes one serve only "myself". There may be more sith that serve them selfs than others, but that is not the rule. Also, jadi does not have to serve others.

Example, if Revan was a sith, and still did all those things to save republic, hove does that makes him serve only him self? Also, if you look for examle those jadi masters in TSL, they don't serve others, they serve them selfs, trying to stop Exile although they should not.

 

Also, sith does not have to be guided only by their emotion, as well as it is not a rule that jadi may not be. You can have a quite impulsive jadi, like Bastila is in the game.

In the end, it goes down to how much would one let this control him or her. The dark side is not corruptive for those who don't want to be corrupted. Remember, Bastila did fall willingly.

[BattleDog]

You're both reaching a bit. Revan started out as a Jedi but fell to the Dark Side, which is why he invaded the Republic. He wanted glory, his ego couldn't hadle anyone else being in control.

 

Kreia is definately an evil hag. Why? She uses the Dark Side, Dark Siders are evil, it really is that simple.

 

As to Bastila, bad example, she was impulsive and she fell. And she didn't exactly do it willingly, Malak tortured her and twisted her up inside.

 

TSL Masters: Another bad example, besides, allowing you to continue to exist would destroy the Force. The fault was not self-serving but short-sighted, they didn't look beyond the immidiate problem, you, and they didn't consider you could be healed.

 

As to actions. Kreia tells you that every action makes a riple in the Force, she's right. She's also right that helping people do something they could do themselves weakens them. What she doesn't say is that a positive action MUST create a positive echo, just as a negetive action MUST make a negative echo. The fact is both also make opposite echos.

 

Kreia says she wants you to think for yourselves, if you want to follow her philosophy they you need to do that. Every positive action has a positive echo but you should only act when the positive outways the negative. This is what the Jedi meditate on.

 

Example: Paying off someone's gambling depts, positive action.

 

Positive: The Guy can get on with his life.

 

Negative: He hasn't learned his lesson and will get into the same situation again.

 

Balance: Negative.

 

 

Example: Saving a small child hanging from a cliff.

 

Positive: The child is alive and his family is probably very happy, the event may have had a proffound effect, he could go on to be a fireman or rescue worker and save lots of lives.

 

Negative: He could go on to be a mass murderer but if anything, given someone saved his life, he's less likely to hurt people.

 

Balance: Positive.

 

Do you see what I'm trying to say yet?

[D.J.]

Yes, Revan invaded the republic, but to make it stronger than it was. As it's said in TSL, Revan was choosing his targets, unlike Malak. He just believed that this way the republic could fight the true sith.

 

Darth Traya is evil, not Kreia. Kreia may be a sith by opinion, becouse her intention to change the destiny, but, still, if she is so evil, how come that she is still guided by the force to do exactly what she should? Beats me. Besides, she also tells you to do not be cruel when you are.

 

TSL masters: they were not short-sighted, they knew Exile could be healed, look at the trial recording found on Telos.

 

As to actions: Both are good examples, but, still no one can know if a guy will not kill people just becouse someone saved his life. As well as we can't know if someone will not learn the lession if you pay his depts. I think that's not the point. Kreia is trying to tell you that if you help people, they will come to depend on others, and that may make them weak. Of course, I don't think that helping people is wrong, in any way, but it is wrong if people come to depend on someone. Than you're not helping them, you make tham weak, becouse you can't fight other peoples battles.

Kreia's philosopy may be wrong, but funny thing is, that if Exile is to live to the end, and do what he/she should, Exile must follow her philosophy, or will not become strong enought.

 

If one would live without emotions, wouldn't that make him simply a machine? I think that question about beeing on light or dark side is not question about emotion that much as much it is question about do one follows his or her destiny or does everything oposite to that. Of course, strong emotion may take one down that path maybe more easily, but that is not a rule. And, of course, doing everything as you see it suitable, is doing what you should not.

 

In my opinion, the balance is somewhere between the sith and the jadi, becouse the jadi use reason, but they lack of emotion. The sith give in too much to their emotion, and therefore they are other extreme.

[DarthDeceptus]

Kreia is definately an evil hag. Why? She uses the Dark Side, Dark Siders are evil, it really is that simple.

 

It is interesting you used the word hag. In our history, the 'rightful' ones used words like this to make someone evil enough in the society, that they could follow their own interests and send this innocent person on a fire. This is called inquisition. By that time, the same parole ruled 'if they don't think as us, they are evil'. But you know about it anyway, but still you categorise people by their titles and codes they follow.

 

As to Bastila, bad example, she was impulsive and she fell. And she didn't exactly do it willingly, Malak tortured her and twisted her up inside.

 

No, Malak did torture her, but she fell willingly, embracing the dark side as she always wanted to. She was arrogant and she wanted power. And that destiny can lead one only to their certain death.

 

Do you see what I'm trying to say yet?

 

I presume you have experience and knowledge about life. But, it seems you are the one that don't want to see. I understand your words. But, if someone's destiny is to be weak, and so to be hurted by someone, you can only make them weaker by helping them. You change 'ties' within the force, changing their destiny. You can help someone and make him a better man, granted. But you never know what could become of him. And, by helping someone, you are making him more dippendent on others, thus making him weaker. If he never stands up to the people hurting him, then he is weak, and there is a place for the weak. By helping him, you only saved him from that day. He will need help and ask for it tommorow, and one day you will not be there to help him. You only gave him some time, but making him and yourself weaker and making his life even more worse, and also putting yourself in danger.

 

TSL Masters: Another bad example, besides, allowing you to continue to exist would destroy the Force. The fault was not self-serving but short-sighted, they didn't look beyond the immidiate problem, you, and they didn't consider you could be healed.

 

What they did is justifiable. They were simply scared for their own future and future of all force users. They were arrogant to think they could possibly change Exile's destiny, and they were, obviusly, ignorant of his/her power.

They were short-sighted and didn't see the world as it is. Their perception of the world was on a such smaller degree. They didn't see exile's future, to go after revan and to fight the Sith in unknown regions.

 

Revan started out as a Jedi but fell to the Dark Side, which is why he invaded the Republic. He wanted glory, his ego couldn't hadle anyone else being in control.

 

In war, a war hero of one nation is an mad terrorist to another.

You must understand that they are two words different words that most people are confusing. To 'fell' is nothing nearly as to fell. The one thing describes one who doesn't follow his code anymore. That individual may learn another code, sith perhaps, and follow his goals, or give himself to his emotions and follow his/her instinct. That individual doesn't have to use dark side force, but it usualy does. However, that doesn't make that individual evil. He is simply different-minded (a good example is darth tyranus). Yet to fall means to want all the power for yourself. These... individuals don't care for codes, honor, heat of battle. All they seek is ultimate control of everything, and thus, ultimate death of anything. It is the quickest train to death.

Then, you could think that revan didn't choose to follow the dark side. Dark side is stronger, becose it is more destructive, and revan needed all the power he could get. Revan never wanted to seize control of the whole galaxy just to enslave everything or destroy anything that can't be enslaved. He wanted to make the galaxy stronger by unifing his force to fight the sith that awaits on outer parts of galaxy. That is the difference between revan and his former apprentice, for Malak wanted only power, glory and... power, he only cared for his goals and he wasn't binded by sith code.... and later, in kotor tsl, the one who was a great and powerful sith lord, who died and was reborn as an empty evil shell on malachor, Nihilus, the one who also fell, wishing everything, any living thing for himself. Perhaps the though of his betrayal made him that way. I personaly think that revan did what he had to, and that he never fell becose his goals were to strentghen the republic.

[Jae Onasi]

It is interesting you used the word hag. In our history, the 'rightful' ones used words like this to make someone evil enough in the society, that they could follow their own interests and send this innocent person on a fire. This is called inquisition. By that time, the same parole ruled 'if they don't think as us, they are evil'. But you know about it anyway, but still you categorise people by their titles and codes they follow.

 

(snipped)

 

 

In war, a war hero of one nation is an mad terrorist to another.

(snipped some more)

 

Jumping way into the relativism debate here....So, if I say 'Hitler was evil for all the atrocities he committed' you would just tell me that this is all relative and that he was a war hero of the Nazis, so I should just be tolerant of all the horrible things he committed? After all, the Nazis felt that killing millions of innocents to help 'purify' the Germans was something desirable, so who am I to judge? Or that (if he hadn't committed suicide) since we call Hitler evil, we'd be putting an innocent person on trial for war crimes? This is one of the dangers of relativism--failing to acknowledge good things as good and evil things as evil. Regardless of how the Nazis felt about Hitler, when he ordered millions to concentration camps to be tortured, starved, and gassed, he was doing something horrendously evil.

Evil doesn't stop being evil just because I put a fluffy, politically correct name on it to make people feel better about it.

 

In regards to idea that one has to experience the dark side to fully understand it: I don't have to torture and kill someone to understand how utterly reprehensible it is. I don't have to do a Hannibal Lecter and eat human flesh to understand how atrocious cannibalism is. You can study and come to understand a sociopath or a psychopath without fully participating in their activities. Therefore, I would submit to you that the logic in saying one has to participate in evil to fully understand it is flawed. The opposite side of that is also true--I don't have to be a Mother Theresa to recognize good in the world.

 

About Kreia--everyone is making an important assumption about her, and that assumption is that she's always telling the truth. There are points in the story where she is not entirely forthright; I take a fair amount of what she says with a heavy dose of salt.

'Nuff philosophy for now....

[DarthDeceptus]

It is not on me, you or anyone to judge Hitler and it's actions, but if we would go categorising, then yea, hitler was evil becose all he wanted was to control the whole planet, and that stuff about super-human nazis, are all just his propaganda. Maybe he did believe in his goals, but he didn't had a good reason for duing it. Revan, my Onasi friend, had a reason. If he didn't destroyed most of mandalorian fleet back at malachor v, mandalorians would utterly destroy the republic, and the sith, the real sith, not a bunch of wannabees, would come and destroy and enslave everything on their way.

 

In regards to idea that one has to experience the dark side to fully understand it: I don't have to torture and kill someone to understand how utterly reprehensible it is. I don't have to do a Hannibal Lecter and eat human flesh to understand how atrocious cannibalism is. You can study and come to understand a sociopath or a psychopath without fully participating in their activities. Therefore, I would submit to you that the logic in saying one has to participate in evil to fully understand it is flawed. The opposite side of that is also true--I don't have to be a Mother Theresa to recognize good in the world.

 

You presume too much, my friend. I am trying to tell you that dark side isn't just 'tortoure, kiling'. Most of it is that, but the power, the real power should be learned. This is not a conversation, however, about submiting yourself to cruel acts. But, seeing with your own eyes helps. The dark side is a second side of the same coin as the light side. The dark side are simply light side powers turned around, made as a weapon not as a tool. It can be used to torture and kill, for personal benefit. But that looking is too narrowed - the way you look upon it. If you look upon it globaly, then our goals are that which drives us through everything. Revan's goals was to save the republic. He used the dark side, he tortured, he killed, he done great cruelties, but just think of what would become of a 'republic' if revan haven't won? Mandalorians just live for a heat of battle, they don't deal in political wars, and a political war that was, becose the real sith wanted the mandalorians to attack the republic and to weaken the republic. And republic was about to fall. Yet, the Jedi just kept on meditating on something they could not see, and a doom was about to get all the galaxy. And then, it took a two former jedis, two sith lords to intervine with real sith's plan and stop the mandalorians. It took Jedi teaching but also Sith teaching for revan to become a great man he was, able to reclaim Star Forge, kill his betrayable student and escape Star Forge before it was destroyed. After that, he himself have gone to unknown regions to fight the real sith. He is a hero, just as I said, but a terrorist and unhero in another way. It is a matter perspective. Your understanding is, clearly, not as mine, and you don't see as you should.

 

And yes, to fully understand one thing, one must know it to control it. That doesn't meaathat you should go choking peoples around, you said it clearly becose you would like to do it. However, that means that you should keep an open mind and try the things before you judge them.

 

About Kreia--everyone is making an important assumption about her, and that assumption is that she's always telling the truth. There are points in the story where she is not entirely forthright; I take a fair amount of what she says with a heavy dose of salt.

 

I never said she tells you the truth. She does but not completely. But her agenda is visible from the same begining. And using you for such a goal as she want it is perhaps evil, but it is a matter of perspective. On Trayus Core tells you that she wanted to send an echo strong enough to deafen everyone who can hear the force, but not to kill them. She wanted to do this to keep Jedis and Sith from fighting in thousands of years to come. The goal itself is more good than evil, again matter of perspective. From her perspective, the goal was good, and that was the reason why she is not evil. But, it seems that she, as much as anyone else, have been blinded by force and controlled by force, and as such, she played the role she had to, she followed her destiny. You cannot make someone evil for following his destiny!

 

'Nuff philosophy for now....

 

I am not the one preaching here, or forcing his own narrow-eyed, elusive philosophy to everyone that have another opinion.

 

[D.J.]

Jumping way into the relativism debate here....So, if I say 'Hitler was evil for all the atrocities he committed' you would just tell me that this is all relative and that he was a war hero of the Nazis...

 

I think that someone is missing a point here. You can't see the world in black and white only, that's not the point, you should see it in gray, as it usually really is. And I think that that's what Kreia is trying to tell you. Putting things in black and white perspective is never going to give you enoght room to understand the reasons, intentions...

Of coure Kreia is not telling the Exile the whole thruth, if she did, Exile would not do what he/she will, and must. But you can see this from the beggining of the game.

 

As for Revan, I don't think he was ever evil, he was never consumed by the dark side, he was not consumed by it even on the star forge, where Malak was, the thing that consumed everyone who used it. Besides, in the end of KOTOR, when you finish LS, Malak will tell you anyway that light side, dark side, it is not important, Revan will alwasy stand alone.

 

Judging people by their action is ok, and that way you can see if someone is bad or good. But that tells you nothing about their intentions, and I think that intentions are important.

(Of coure Hitler was evil, althought I'm not the one who should judge it, he did evil things, had evil intentions, and wrong reasons.)

[BattleDog]

Guys, we're talking about the Force here, it is Black and White.

 

As far as Kreia goes, you're still missing the major point, she only tells you half the story and she betrays you because she is Darth Traya. She is Sith and Sith are evil. As far as "Hag" I think its an appropriate word to apply to a scheming, backstabbing evil Sith.

 

The power of the Dark Side comes only from negative emotions, therefore it is unequel with the Force and that is how we know it is a perversion. As far as balance goes if you couldn't grasp the concept of positive and negative echos from every action then I don't see how you can allow yourself to just go on parroting Kreia.

 

Darth Revan's attack on the Republic weakened it, he might have been keeping some places strong but the overall effect was negative. Jedi Revan saved the Republic and had he not been seduced by the Dark Side he would have tried to make it ready without death and hate.

 

Sith do evil things because these evil things generate the negative emotions that feed their power. A Jedi has emotions but they have nothing to do with his or her conection to the Force.

 

http://www.theforce.net/swenc/newdescr.asp?search=6040&tab=d

 

Read that. Its a short entry but if you don't believe me maybe this will convince you. There may be two sides to the Force but they are not two sides of the same coin.

[D.J.]

Sure I agree with that, but I still don't think that seeing things in only black and white is good. I think that the whole story is about not seeing things like that. Question about right or wrong is maybe more moral question than any other. To know if somethingis right or wrong is not the same thing as to judge.

As to Kreia, you may say she is evil, but she is still guided by the force.

As for Revan, you can't save someone who does not want to be saved, so I don't think it's that easy to say if he was evil. He may have just believes that this way he will save the republic.

Categorising things like that, black and white, is just an other extreme. I think it's god to know what is right and what is wrong, but still try not to categorise the wole world like that. (As in SW, and the reallife too.)

That's the only thing I wanted you to think about. Just think about it.

 

Blast, I got to go now, truck behind my house is on fire. Really

[Jae Onasi]

Good heavens, DJ—I sure hope that truck fire thing worked out OK and that your home and family is safe.

 

DarthDeceptus brings up some interesting points that I wanted to address. What I am reading here is that some people believe that utilizing darkside methods with a theoretically positive motivation somehow ‘balances’ things or makes one a grey Jedi. While mixing black and white in the color world equals grey, it doesn’t work that way for dark and light actions. I agree that in the Real World ™, there are many shades of grey to life—I never claimed that the world is entirely black and white. I will debate the point that in Lucas’ Star Wars, there is a clear delineation between dark and light, and very little in between. The Star Wars universe does not necessarily mirror real life. I will even agree that the Sith are not all about Force Crushing everyone they see, otherwise there wouldn’t be anyone to serve them. By their own admission and code, however, they are all about becoming the dominant power, or becoming ‘top dog’ for an analogy. There is no such thing as a ‘benevolent Sith.’ Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that you’re a Sith Lord. You’ve just conquered 10 planet systems in order to unify the sector to help protect it from some threat. So you choose not to use Force choke or storm on everyone there. That’s fine. You’re a decent sort of Sith. Now let’s turn it around from another perspective and say you’re one of the people subjugated by this Sith Lord. Your movements are constantly watched for any sign of rebellion. You are not free to do what you want when you want, because you have to conform to the Sith rule, even when you know what they’re doing is wrong or unsuccessful. Your creativity is stifled. You are subject to imprisonment or death if your neighbor, who wants to win favor with the Sith in order to rise in the ranks, turns you in on a false charge. As a Sith, subjugating an entire planet to satisfy your own end, regardless of how honorable that end may be, can never be considered a good action. If we are actually to believe what Kreia had to say about Revan (which is always suspect, since she states she’s a betrayer), many here would argue that Revan’s desire to unite the galaxy against a greater threat is a good thing, even romantically honorable somehow. In that, you would be correct. I argue that the method Revan chose, embracing the dark side and attempting to conquer the galaxy to unite it, was a very dark side choice. This dark side choice isn’t made ‘grey’ by the motivation; it’s still a dark side choice. The motivation is irrelevent when the result is taking over the galaxy and ruling it with an iron fist. Had s/he conquered the galaxy, s/he could have beaten whatever is out there in the Unknown region, and then would have dominated that region as well. What’s the difference between trading one evil Revan for another unknown evil from the outer regions? Where’s the logic in saying “I killed millions of innocent people to save the galaxy?” Revan had a choice—unite the galaxy in a lightside way, or take it over entirely in a darkside way, and Revan chose the latter—likely because s/he was too impatient.

 

@ both DarthDeceptus and DJ--yes, we certainly _can_ judge Hitler and others who commit similar atrocities. He ordered millions, including his own countrymen, to concentration camps to starve and die or be gassed. He authorized unspeakably brutal medical experiments on innocent children and adults—so brutal that even I am sickened by it, and I’ve been in the medical field for quite some time. His actions were horrible. If you decide you can’t judge him, then you are in effect saying he had justification for committing these atrocities. While moral relativists would like you to believe that every action is inherently neutral, that is not the case. Some actions are indeed neutral, but some others are definitively good or evil, and denying this is deluding ourselves.

 

If you choose to be a Sith, fine. I play a darkside character from time to time just for yucks and grins, but it’s not a philosophy I would embrace.

However, my point on this is don’t try to make some kind of light side justification for dark side actions and claim that this somehow makes the whole thing grey, or that they are two sides of the same coin when they are about as far away in approach as it can possibly get.

 

I just have to say I’m enjoying the debate of ideas, and I hope you all understand that I am not attacking anyone personally, but I will freely argue on ideas. I do respect your right to an opinion!

[D.J.]

You do have a point here. But I was not trying to say that dark side methods with good intentions make you gray, I was only pointing out that intentions should be taken into consideration.

I agree that in SW there is big diference between light and dark, with little in between, but playing KOTOR and TSL I simply got the feeling that these "gray things" are the prime idea, over the usual light - dark one.

I do believe the method Revan choose was wrong, but I still don't think that then he/she should just be marked as evil.

 

About Hitler, when I say it's not me to judge him, I don't mean I agree with him and all the things he did, good God, no! But what I meant to say is that I'm human as well, and no matter my opinion of him, it's not my call to judge if someone is evil, not even someone like him. My religion taught me that my whole life.

 

I never playes TSL as DS, believe it or not. Just don't like it. And I'm not trying to make any kind of justification of DS actions. I was trying to look at things less from surface. That's why I like TSL so much, includes a lot of things that can be understood in a lot of deferent ways.

 

You're alwasy wellcome to freely argue on ideas, and that does not mean I'll ever think you're attacing someone, as I also hope I'm not going to get anyone offend.

 

(About that truck, men that was not nice! Got a fire 10meters away from my bedroom, and at wind blowing about 200 km/h, it wasn't easy to put it down, but it all worked all right Don't need to worry)

[DarthDeceptus]

I just have to say I’m enjoying the debate of ideas, and I hope you all understand that I am not attacking anyone personally, but I will freely argue on ideas. I do respect your right to an opinion!

 

Hey, ofcourse. We all like debating. I really respect people who can beat me on debating. Ofcourse, don't take anything personally.

 

(About that truck, men that was not nice! Got a fire 10meters away from my bedroom, and at wind blowing about 200 km/h, it wasn't easy to put it down, but it all worked all right Don't need to worry)

 

Wow, I hope everything's alright. Geez... wind blowing at 120 mph... scary...

 

@ both DarthDeceptus and DJ--yes, we certainly _can_ judge Hitler and others who commit similar atrocities. He ordered millions, including his own countrymen, to concentration camps to starve and die or be gassed. He authorized unspeakably brutal medical experiments on innocent children and adults—so brutal that even I am sickened by it, and I’ve been in the medical field for quite some time. His actions were horrible. If you decide you can’t judge him, then you are in effect saying he had justification for committing these atrocities. While moral relativists would like you to believe that every action is inherently neutral, that is not the case. Some actions are indeed neutral, but some others are definitively good or evil, and denying this is deluding ourselves.

 

I do completely agree with this, however, I can't just tell him "you are guilty for that and that and bla bla" - I simply don't know his reasons and stuff that was happening in his head when he decided to do that. From his perspective, although I don't really understand it, but it might felt right. So, from his point, he was not evil. About deluding ourselves, while I agree that some actions are definitely aimed towards good or evil, every action can be interpreted as both, and as neutral, as any action have it's drawbacks and good points.

 

I argue that the method Revan chose, embracing the dark side and attempting to conquer the galaxy to unite it, was a very dark side choice. This dark side choice isn’t made ‘grey’ by the motivation; it’s still a dark side choice. The motivation is irrelevent when the result is taking over the galaxy and ruling it with an iron fist

 

While that was a little darky choice, I simply think it was the best choice becose the Jedi didn't see things that revan did and the republic was weak after the war with the mandalorians. Revan saw that, if he ever stand on Coruscant in jedi counsel and say that the great threat was waiting at the unknown regions, they would think that he's gone dilusional, and ofcourse they wouldn't give him a whole fleet to go and battle the real sith, jedi being pacificistic as they are. So, revan learned the ways of the dark side to become strong enough to take the republic, strentghen it and repel the sith invaders. In my opinion, revan was a great in strategy. And attacking the republic might have been the easiest way to strentghen it. I think that revan was corrupted by the dark side meaning that he used it, but was never corrupted that he wanted to take over a whole galaxy and rule it by iron fist. Still, if you are right, if he would rule the galaxy with an iron fist, than that is still better than to be enslaved by the real sith.

 

Where’s the logic in saying “I killed millions of innocent people to save the galaxy?”

 

Remember the ol' spock saying: "The needs of the many outweights the needs of the few."

What is a few millions, compared to the whole galaxy?

 

 

If you choose to be a Sith, fine. I play a darkside character from time to time just for yucks and grins, but it’s not a philosophy I would embrace.

However, my point on this is don’t try to make some kind of light side justification for dark side actions and claim that this somehow makes the whole thing grey, or that they are two sides of the same coin when they are about as far away in approach as it can possibly get.

 

Far away in approach, yes, but they are still basicaly two sides of the same coin since force makes all living things, so the force is not 'evil' or 'good', only it's users are. But I think that there must always be balance between these two, becose if they would not be jedis, then the sith would conquer, ravage and later destroy whole galaxy, but if there would not be sith, the jedi would start to be arrogant, simply becose they wouldn't have the real class enemy, and something to do.