A third path

[JediMaster12]

Good Darth InSidious. I played with yours a bit and came up with this:

 

In peace, there is passion

In power, there is knowledge

In harmony lies strength

Through serenity, there is victory

In darkness, there is light

In broken spirit, there is a whole

The Force sets me free

 

Don't be mad.

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

Sounds good. More 'Star Wars'.

[JediMaster12]

Thanks. I like taking what verse people have and then changing it around and playing with it and coming out with something else. I have a knack for taking ideas and phrases and putting it together. I guess you would call it poetry. Maybe I should go to the entertainment forum post stuff like this. Any ways this whole third group thing that is neutral is fun to speculate on possible ideas. I like mainly because we never really see what the people in the middle think except for Kreia and Jolee in the games.Thanks for posting it Darth Sun_Tzu.

[Darth InSidious]

Nice work

 

Not sure about the line "In broken spirit, there is a whole". Maybe There is wholeness in the broken?

[JediMaster12]

I think I fixed that line yay:) Here is the whole thing:

In peace, there is passion

In power, there is knowledge

In harmony lies strength

Through serenity, there is victory

In darkness, there is light

Where one is broken, there is a whole

The Force sets me free

 

Does it sound a bit better?

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

Yes good, i think we are about there with the code. Now what about a history for them? Or a leader?

 

I was thinking about jolee but it is possible that he can be killed so that would be no good. So I've been thinking about what someone said about Kreia (sorry can't remember who) that to be truely knowledgable in the force one must have seen both sides. So for a leader I thought some left over from the Exar Kun period. A Jedi that joined Exar Kun but after they failed to beat the jedi and the republic they turned from the darkside and instead just became a student of the force.

[JediMaster12]

Well Jolee could have been the first leader of this group. They are not generally known but are seen by the Jedi as "misguided but not lost." They see all life is connected but nothing is definitive and that things are seen from a point of view and that consitutes to the truths the Republic clings to. If one is to understand the Force, one must learn of all its aspects and not just the light or just the dark.

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

So what do you think their history would be?

[Darth InSidious]

I think I fixed that line yay:) Here is the whole thing:

In peace, there is passion

In power, there is knowledge

In harmony lies strength

Through serenity, there is victory

In darkness, there is light

Where one is broken, there is a whole

The Force sets me free

 

Does it sound a bit better?

 

Perfect

 

I think this group would probably have seceded gradually, and by-and-large peacefully from the Jedi Order over a long period of time, until eventually, enough like-minded members came together to create this new order.

 

Also, I hate to nitpick, but this is the fourth, not the third group. The third are the Daft Side/Dali/Mojo siders

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

So what your saying is you'd like an older order built up over time from jedi and sith who have left their respective 'camps' and form an new order. By the time k3 start they are starting to be discovered.

 

Something like that?

[JediMaster12]

Yeah, that's the idea. Of course there will be disagreements but the Jedi aren't perfect and neither are the Sith. Well people aren't perfect in general. They may have the best intentions but can still get everything wrong.

 

Also, I hate to nitpick, but this is the fourth, not the third group. The third are the Daft Side/Dali/Mojo siders

 

How is it the fourth and who is the third group really? Me confused:D

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

Yes me too.

 

 

So who do you think might be the founder of this group? Do you think they would have started as far back as the Great Hyperspace war? Or do you think they would be a newer order than that?

[Darth InSidious]

The Dali left the Jedi after the Great Schism, in what is known as the Slightly Smaller Schism. They focus more on humour and unusual ways of looking at the universe (say, through a small piece of fairy cake), and its application to the Force. Also known as the Daft Side, or the Mojo Side. Talk to RJM for more info

 

As for your neutrals, I think they were probably founded around the time of the Exar Kun war, personally.

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

Well thats only 40-50 years before TSL. So it would not be a very old order. And it also the idea i already had.

 

So for a leader I thought some left over from the Exar Kun period. A Jedi that joined Exar Kun but after they failed to beat the jedi and the republic they turned from the darkside and instead just became a student of the force.

[REDJOHNNYMIKE]

@DI, Actually, they are seperate, the mojo is just allied with the dali for mutually beneficial purposes, and the fact that there are many similarities.

Believing that they are one in the same is quite simply Daft:lol:

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

^That is a little off topic.

 

I think they might have a council, like the jedi do, but there is an official leader, like the Sith, who is the most powerful/wise.

[JediMaster12]

If it is started at the time of Exar Kun, I would place a friendly bet of 20 credits that Jolee would be a leader if not the leading member, that is if I had 20 credits. I really don't know of any other Jedi that were like Jolee at the time of Exar Kun.

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

Although i'd like to see jolee again i don't think he will be in it but he could have had something to do with it b4 he crashed on Kashyyyk.

[JediMaster12]

That's true because he did fight Exar Kun and he said it was forty years ago. This was when he was helping Revan out. After Revan, he may have gone back to being the crotchety ole hermit, if you didn't kill him.

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

He would have to, I don't think he would go back to the Jedi. Maybe he went somewhere that he could help.

[Buzz1978]

So i've started this thread to discuss a possible philosiphy for this 3rd group.

Is this third group supposed to follow their own goals or would it side with one of the traditional groups at some point of the story? I think the answer to this question has a *great* impact on what their philosophy *can* be. If they have their own goals (what I assume) then it's maybe easier to make that up first and then develop their philosophy.

 

But I think it would be a great idea to start the story as a member of a third group, because this way the PC could start neutral (without LS/DS history) and becoming LS or DS are equally believable.

 

My idea would be a group with a similar philosiphy to Sun Tzu. Where you look at everything as part of a whole and the greatest victory is one acheived without violence. I guess this would make them grey but leaning towards the DS.

I think it would make them DS because the way of thinking behind Sun Tzu's philosopy is rather extreme. And AFAIK it's achieving victory without war and not without violence and not because war itself is evil but because war is risky.

I find the question interesting (in TSL) why so many Jedi fell to the DS (and according to that why Sith/ Dark Jedi can be turned from the DS). It's mentioned in TSL that the Jedi teachings have become arrogant but that's not a real answer. It's just a "thought play" since the story is fictional but I suggest the answer is that the Jedi ways of thinking have become to extreme. And being extreme is the best way to encounter something that "stirs up the pattern of belief". Atris is a good example - she is a LS extremist and becomes DS without even noticing.

 

They would operate in the background and very few people would know of their existance, their goals would be similar to GOTO's in that all they want is stability for the Galaxy, whether is be controled by the Jedi, Sith or neither.

Tough thing that... It's easier for Goto since he's been given the order to save the republic (not the galaxy) and adds a "by any means necessary" by himself. What is stability? I find this question difficult to answer for a social system even more if LS and DS solutions are prohibited.

If Kreia told the Exile the truth (Revans choices were always his own.) then Revan is the real grey Jedi...

 

What do you guy think? Feel free to post any ideas of your own as well.

Ok, you asked for it. I made up a group named the "visheevushy" (bad play of words, that only Germans understand). Their apprentices don't learn answers or solutions to certain problems but they have to solve problems on their own and have to refine them on their own until the teacher doesn't find weakness in their argumentation any more. There are no good or bad solutions, only adequate or inadequate solutions. They learn martial combat and there's no restriction of its use except the judgement of the visheevushy-adept. A problem from the visheevushy's point of view is whatever he considers as one. A visheevushy will work together with others if it fits his purpose but he will always distrust other visheevushys because he knows that they have other goals.

The visheevushy-codex is rather short:

 

Truth is not to be given, it is to be found.

There is no evil, only decisions I don't make.

There is no good, only acting based on my decisions.

[JediMaster12]

That sounds a bit Sithy like. I think the attempt was made at the suggestion of a grey group; a group that see the inbetween. One is a character I created for a fanfic, Ashira-Li who is dedicated to the Jedi Order and the code but also sees the fallacy of it. She follows the code but she loves and yet she is not rebuked. Your vissheevushy codex seems to reflect more of the darker leanings of the grey.

[Buzz1978]

That sounds a bit Sithy like.

Of course it does! But why? What makes the Sith code dark and the Jedi code light? I think victory for the Sith and peace for the Jedi are the words to turn the scale, yet it's still a matter of interpretation.

 

I think the attempt was made at the suggestion of a grey group; a group that see the inbetween. [...] Your vissheevushy codex seems to reflect more of the darker leanings of the grey.

You're welcome to improve it but I think it's not *that* bad. For a visheevushy (the name is still a bad joke) everything depends on the personal point of view and because of that he doesn't consider other people as good or evil and he doesn't consider other people's opinions as inferior *but* his own opinion is everything that matters for his decisions and therefore actions. He isn't easily manipulated but if he can't avoid it he might manipulate other people to reach his goal. It's true that the DS is as open to him as is the LS. From the Jedi/Sith point of view, some of his actions could be considered DS and some could be considered LS. But unless he sees a point in doing the typical LS/DS things he lacks ambition to do either of them.

[JediMaster12]

I'm not saying it's bad, it just seems to reflect a little too darkness. Then again truth is nothing but a point of view. So in a way truth is flawed and if truth is flawed then so is knowledge.

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

I don't mind the idea, i'm now more infavour of an non-unified group, where eventhough they follow the same code, some may lean more to the DS and some the LS.