The concept of "Life without the force"

[JediMaster12]

Then I guess you don't hear the Force like the Jedi do

I'm not trying to contradict you Meatbag, I'm merely trying to make sense of where your line of thought was heading. I've spent a lot of time studying the theory behind religions and what I found interesting concerning the Force are the parallels drawn to Buddhism and Zen, the whole peace thing going for you. I'm no expert but those are my thoughts and I've come to see the Force as that part of you that is like God touching your heart or what have you. Still if you elaborate on your ideas I would be most willing to view them.

[Meatbag]

The Force is... unique. It is a specific energy field that interconnects nearly all life. It's nearly everywhere. It's nature is a mystery, but a sentient being's brain can, let's say, develop a interface with it. Let's say the being can interpret signals from it, as if it were a sixth sense, one more powerful than any other. A Jedi learns for the Force to become a part of him. Using the Force, a being can not only "sense" things ("see" them through the Force, I think feeling them through the Force is the best way to say that) but also use the Force to do things, such as move matter. Think of a Jedi with a band over their eyes. Or a Miraluka. They can not only make out the silhouettes of beings and objects, but can also see farther than normal sight - through a wall, for example. Using the Force, one can enter another's mind (the nature of this is somewhat complicated).

The whole will idea, I think the Force might in a way be sentient, but not all the time and controlling everything.

The Force allows one to feel another, but without touching them, or perhaps seeing them. Because our brains work with the set of senses we have from our birth, it is very hard for us to imagine how the Force feels. It's tough, but I sometimes try, not that I can achieve much, though.

I find it kinda hard to explain, that's why this post is so muddled... I think I would do better talking in person, lol, or sharing my thoughts via a brain connection, lol

[Prime]

Warning: nitpicking below.

 

I think ultimately you have to keep in mind that the descriptions of the Force and things relating to it are usually discribed metaphorical and it is not always a literal description of how things work.

 

Kreia seems to think that the force controls everything and that nobody has any free will, so she tried to "kill the force".

I think she is thinking more about how the Force guides destinies, and not that it controls everything that happens. We see this first hand in the movies in regards to the prophecy, and has to with the unifying force.

 

And she says she loves you because the exile lives "without the force"

The question is, what does "without" really mean? Is it that the energy field that is the force does not touch/penetrate the Exile? That the Exile's connection to it has been actually severed? Or that the Exile, counciously or subconsiously, has decided to no longer listen/use his connection?

 

I think the last option is the most likely. The first two are something that probably are out of the Exile's control and ability to rectify, where as the latter can be corrected, which is what we see happening throughout the game. The Exile relearns to listen to his connection. We also learn that the Council did not "physically" severe the Exile from the Force as he originally thought. He had subconciously done that himself as a result of trauma.

 

We also hear that perhaps life without the force is not the punishment it was thought to be.

I think "punishment" is the Jedi point of view. No doubt they think that losing their connection to the Force would be the ultimate loss. I don't think that "life without the Force" is refering to a state where the Force itself didn't exist.

 

The Jedi Council says that they sensed an emptiness in the exile when (s)he was brought before them. And they felt like they were staring into the death of the force. Now fine, perhaps after the horros of war he witnessed a void of feeling isn't really that much of a stretch, but the game treats the force as it it is compeltly independent or even unnatural to life.

I think the "emptiness" they saw was result of the Exile completely isolating himself from the Force. Where they expected to feel his presence in the Force due to the fact he was a Jedi, they did not feel anything, perhaps comparable to a hole in the Force. In essense, the Force didn't seem to exist around the Exile. This lack of existence could be compared to "death" of the Force.

 

The mandalorians say "no use of your force" in the battle circle as if one can turn if off. But the Mandalorians being alive draw from the force aswell!

In this sense they are simply refering to the abilities that the Force provides. Using the Force to provide such abilities is a learned skill, and the Jedi can choose not to use them. No doubt many such abilites become second nature to a Jedi and no longer require thought, but there is no reason to think a Jedi cannot choose to avoid using them. They will still get the "input" from their connection to it, they would just choose to ignore it.

 

Most of the lore of the game is whisptered to us through a manipulative (and i'm convinced) mad-woman, who wants to kill destiny which is why this whole thing is confusing, but i get the distinct impression that unlike everything else we've ever heard from star wars...The Sith Lords promotes that idea that the force isn't connected to life, its just something that you can turn away form completly.

I think it is more trying to severe ones connection to it as much as possible, and so live without relying on it. I don't think it is so much trying to destroy the existence of the Force itself. Again, more a metaphorical explanation.

 

Just like some people have better hearing or eyesight than others, some people have more of the Force in them.

A small point, but I think that it isn't so much that people have more Force in them, but that their connection to it is stronger. One's midiclorian count represents that connection, not how much Force "is in them."

 

Life without the force, makes me think of the Yuuzhan Vong, who are essentially force-dead, which I guess means a midi-chlorian count of 0.

I don't think it is that their midiclorian count is zero, since according to Qui-Gon life without midiclorians would not exist in the SW universe. It is more likely that the Vong have been conditioned/bred/whatever to ignore that connection, much as the exile did.

 

However, she was deluding herself if she thought she or The Exile could bring about the end of The Force.

I think she was delusional to some extent.

 

It's nature is a mystery, but a sentient being's brain can, let's say, develop a interface with it.

Again a nitpick, but the interface with the Force is the midiclorians. The brain only gets trained to listen to what the midiclorians "have to say" about the state of the Force around them.

 

Let's say the being can interpret signals from it, as if it were a sixth sense

Even more nitpicking. I don't think the Force sends signals in the sense of "look out" and "duck now". It is more that the Jedi have learned to judge what is happening around them from the changes in the Force they feel. So they can sense that the Force feels different when something is about to hit them, for example. They have learned to interpret what they feel in the Force and react accordingly.

[Meatbag]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meatbag

It's nature is a mystery, but a sentient being's brain can, let's say, develop a interface with it.

 

Again a nitpick, but the interface with the Force is the midiclorians. The brain only gets trained to listen to what the midiclorians "have to say" about the state of the Force around them.

I know that!

 

IIRC it's mostly the midichlorians, but also some infusions with the Force to some extent, like the cave on Dantooine, and Holocrons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meatbag

Let's say the being can interpret signals from it, as if it were a sixth sense

 

Even more nitpicking. I don't think the Force sends signals in the sense of "look out" and "duck now". It is more that the Jedi have learned to judge what is happening around them from the changes in the Force they feel. So they can sense that the Force feels different when something is about to hit them, for example. They have learned to interpret what they feel in the Force and react accordingly.

I made wrong vocabulary use there, I did not mean the Force tells them to duck. it's their own brain using the Force for "information".

[JediMaster12]

I think what Prime is intending is that the Force is all the perceptions that a sentient has but heightened to a degree. People talk of auras and how they change when something significant shifts its 'normal' state. The Force is the same way when it comes to sensing danger or what have you. It is a change in the 'aura' surounding the person that it is going to affect. Correct me if I'm wrong Prime.

[PazaakPrincess]

Look Kreia is just p'd that she was at the pinnacle of Sith Power and lost it all to her two apprentices (though being a Sith she really should have expected it) her real goal is self deluded revenge some sort of compensation for not being to destroy her betrayers herself and being thrown down especially because she had walked both paths and inbetween.

 

She's just a whole lotta messed in the head. If you're smart Exile you want take much of what she has to say to heart.

[PoiuyWired]

I know that!

 

IIRC it's mostly the midichlorians, but also some infusions with the Force to some extent, like the cave on Dantooine, and Holocrons.

 

I made wrong vocabulary use there, I did not mean the Force tells them to duck. it's their own brain using the Force for "information".

 

... well maybe the force DID tell them to duck... the force can also be a living entity?

[Prime]

I will try to explain my view better...

 

I think what Prime is intending is that the Force is all the perceptions that a sentient has but heightened to a degree.

The force is an energy field that has a natural state (sometimes that seems to be refered to as the "flow"). Presumably every living thing affects the state to some degree, with force-seneative beings have a larger effect (due to their midiclorian concentration perhaps). Force-sensatives can perceive these changes in the state, and interpret them as a different way to perceive there surroundings, amongst other things.

 

People talk of auras and how they change when something significant shifts its 'normal' state.

Pretty much. An "aura" around a force-sensative person really is how they affect the state of the Force.

 

The Force is the same way when it comes to sensing danger or what have you.

Sensing "danger" really is the interpretation of the force-sensative being, not a state of the Force itself. That being senses the state of the Force surrounding them and all the things that it affects it, like other beings and presumably just about anything. The force-sensative being may conclude, either conciously or subconciously, that these things present a threat to them.

[PisOgPapir]

You are wrong about Kreia thinking the Force controls everything... she merely sais she hates that the Force seems to have a will, and can affect things.

And The Exile turning away from the Force made him survive, but also made him to be a wound in the Force, a being that should not exist.

Actually, you are wrong. She says, i dunno if the dialogue is cut or not, but that the essence of what she is saying is that the force uses us.

[Meatbag]

Actually, you are wrong. She says, i dunno if the dialogue is cut or not, but that the essence of what she is saying is that the force uses us.

That's what Kreia believes, not what is considered true. Remember, Kreia is slightly deranged. She does say she hates it for having a will.

[JediMaster12]

Well she sees it as a betrayal when Revan fell to the DS. Then when Sion and Nihilis betray her, that was too much. What greater way o strike down your enemies than to strike down the thing they rely on. In the case of the Jedi, the Force.