Contradictions in Star Wars fiction

[vader815]

I don't really thing that its a question if wether the stormstroopers of Episode 4 are the same from episode 2 and 3. A clone really only has about 20-25 years of usefulness, and ten of those years are training. Episode 2 to 4 happened through about a 21 year time frame, which means no the stormtroopers are not the same clone, unless they made new clone, but according to battlefront 2 the kaminos rebeled against the empire so no new clones could be made.

 

This all explains to me how the stormtroopers lost the ground battle of endor so easily

[Kurgan]

Well I think Lucas's intentions override the plot of some video game, but that's me (and something for the Holocron to work out). Lucas insists that the Stormtrooper who bangs his head on the door in ANH he intends to be a clone of Jango.

 

Now that may not mean this is a (biologically) 60 year old man, it may simply mean this is a clone created from the genetic stock collected from Jango Fett.

 

I don't see how that explains anything to do with the Battle of Endor, but if it works for you, fine...

[Kurgan]

That's some pretty retarded logic. I said it's fine as it is. Therefor, there is no need for a restart. Because I said it was fine in its current form. Meaning there is no need for a restart. I don't see how saying it's fine means I want it restarted. Let's hope that was clear enough for you.

 

Well if that's what you meant you shouldn't confuse me by saying you only care about entertainment, not continuity. So you DO care, fine, I'll leave you alone then.

 

And I've said what I wanted to say, the Expanded Universe is fine as it is, debating is futile.

 

Perhaps for some of us... "fine" is an opinion based on taste after all. I think the fact that they need retcons at all indicates things are not all "fine" on the continuity end. This is just one more "radical" (but feasible) solution I propose, one that has been done in other franchises.

[Kurgan]

Im with the Phreak on this one

 

lolz...restarting EU... how is that possibly feasible or practical ?? Crazy!! Kurgz, Im sure you're registered at TFN - go say that there!! I'd love to read the tumult such an outragous theory would cause

 

While your caricature of what I said is actually fairly close to the truth (fair enough) I don't see what's so "crazy" or "impractical" about it. All you have to do is have Lucas issue a memo, the writers finish the book/series they're on and the EU restarts. Fresh stories from now on, meetings to insure minimized conflicts between writers, strategies for new serieses like normal, etc. You already have the Holocron to maintain continuity, they just now create a new database for the new stuff. Other franchises of have done it.

 

They can continue to sell the (now Infinities) old novels/comics/games, that's no problem. Star Trek has been selling non-canon stuff for almost forty years, doesn't seem to stop it from making money!

 

Obviously it'll piss off hardcore fans of the old continuity who still want their stuff to be canon, but oh well. They can thrown bones to them now and then with a character or a story inspired by something in the old. A wink and a nod and a smile works wonders at attracting old fans to the new stuff. Look at the new TMNT, or Battlestar Galactica, or Doctor Who (though this one is probably a bad example because it's technically still part of the same continuity, not a restart or re-imagining, but still). If the new direction it goes in sucks, it'll hurt the franchise. But if it's good it could be the best shot in the arm the EU has gotten in a long time, one that's sorely needed in my opinion. I mean maybe they are getting drastic. Why else would they start this NJO thing, and then cut it short and start a new series set in the far flung future?

 

Realistically though I'm betting a solution like this won't be tried unless Lucas determines that they're losing their customer base and get desperate to increase sales. If the TV series projects flop that might be something they will be more inclined to do. Star Wars is such a cash cow they may be able to "do no wrong" but now that the prequels are over (and all but the last one didn't seem that great overall) they may feel it's necessary. I can only hope (and continue to piss off people by sharing my opinion, oh well!).

 

 

But, at the end of it all what it comes down to is, I enjoy reading/watching/playing SW EU. I think Ive been exposed to much of what been put out(exc. recent comix ) and still look forward to spending more time in this universe, inconsistencies 'n' all

 

mtfbwya

 

I enjoy it as well. But I laugh and shake my head when I come across people claiming there ARE NO INCONSISTENCIES and that I must be some kind of looney obsessed fan if I don't agree with them. If you can enjoy it even with inconsistencies, MORE power to ya, but it often occurs that the people most upset are the ones willing to spend time trying to explain them all away. At least a streamlining of the expanded universe might help towards diminishing the inconsistencies. Anyway, you guys need not worry, I'm not in charge of Lucas Liscensing or anybody at the ranch. Unlike SuperShadow (cough, bs, cough) I don't have a personal relationship with The Flannelled One so your EU is safe.... for now.

 

Edit: and judging by the number of typos I'm running off, it must be time for me to get off the computer and get to bed! G'night folks...

[Astrotoy7]

....All you have to do is have Lucas issue a memo, the writers finish the book/series they're on and the EU restarts...

 

wow...that's a pretty big "all you have to do".... Might as well ask for ep 7-9 while we're there

 

Comparing Trek and SW EU is almost blasphemous Rodenberry issued no such decree when TNG or the films started. It actually would have done the Trek universe some good, as far as contunuity goes

 

Another part of the "SW:Reloaded" theory that sucks is that it somewhat devalues some of the really great work that has been done... especially by people like Luceno and Stover(IMO). In effect by turning such a massive existing body of work into something less than it is, you're making the SW EU like ST EU....boo !!

 

mtfbwya

[Darth_Terros]

I personally believe they should scrap all the EU written before the prequels came out, well infact not all of it just most of the post ROTJ EU that the new movies have proven to be wrong.

[Prime]

Another part of the "SW:Reloaded" theory that sucks is that it somewhat devalues some of the really great work that has been done...

Sure. But it would also get rid of some of the god-awful crap that has also been done, and does not fit.

 

 

Not that I think the EU needs a full restart, but that would sure be one nice benefit...

[swphreak]

You will all be destroyed for your heresy.

[Astrotoy7]

You will all be destroyed for your heresy.

 

quoted for emphasis

 

lolz, "restart EU", even in a hypothetical sense would ruin more than it would achieve. Thank goodness Kurgz is in no way affiliated or endorsed by Lucasfilm Licensing

 

mtfbwya

[Kurgan]

wow...that's a pretty big "all you have to do".... Might as well ask for ep 7-9 while we're there

 

No, we wouldn't. A couple of emails from the Ranch, hello?

 

Lucas communicates with his people all the time, how do you think they get anything done? Or a video conference call, or a letter, whatever.

 

Making Episodes 7-9 would costs hundreds of millions of dollars (to make them as films on par with the Prequels) at least a decade to put them together. Restarting the EU is just a state of being. I'm not saying re-create the entire EU, the EU itself wasn't created overnight, it's been building since the late 80's. This is a ridiculous objection.

 

Comparing Trek and SW EU is almost blasphemous Rodenberry issued no such decree when TNG or the films started. It actually would have done the Trek universe some good, as far as contunuity goes

 

What, that the continuity was restarted? He issued a decree that the non-live action Star Trek material was non-canon. But that didn't stop it from being made. It's still being sold and makes lots of money. Plenty of Trek fans love it, even though none of it is canon. I'm saying look outside the Star Wars box once in awhile to see what other franchises have been able to make work.

 

Another part of the "SW:Reloaded" theory that sucks is that it somewhat devalues some of the really great work that has been done... especially by people like Luceno and Stover(IMO). In effect by turning such a massive existing body of work into something less than it is, you're making the SW EU like ST EU....boo !!

 

mtfbwya

 

So if a work isn't considered canon it is "devalued" in your mind? So to you, it matters a great deal if a work is considered part of the official timeline. Your enjoyment of it decreases if it isn't? That's interesting.

 

So when you read Thrawn Trilogy now, is it less enjoyable since maybe 35% of it has been retconned? When you read it you're not supposed to consider those parts canon, but look to newer sources to explain away the inconsistencies with the prequels and special editions now.

 

Did you enjoy Star Wars Infinities? It's not canon, after all.

 

Anyway, my point is that unless your enjoyment of a work is dependant on its being canon, this really isn't a valid objection to it being decanonized by itself. Other franchises have non-canon works that are very popular and profitable among the fanbase.

[Lord_MalaKdoggk]

man, that was a long thread (skipped most of it so I could post):

quote kurgan-

7) How is Luke's green lightsaber "much like [Anakin's]"? (Palpatine's line in ROTJ)

 

Luke lost his 'green' (was blue/green in the original film) when Vader cut off his hand in ESB, so Luke undoubtedly built another one (either from memory (genetics ???) or thru guidence of the force).

 

And I was looking for a thread about the final 3 episodes (they'll be the best of the franchise) and wondered why those cute little 'force blocking' creatures we're never mentioned in the previous 6 films.

[Kurgan]

That's a fine explanation, but the fact that his lightsaber changes color is a gaffe, it's supposed to be blue always, until he loses it on cloud city and builds a new one that's green. In the original movie it was blue/white, it only turned green in the special edition and then in the 2004 edition they fixed it in places but generally screwed up all the saber colors (Vader's appears violent/pink or even orange in a few scenes). This is not normal lightsaber behavior of course, because it didn't happen in previous versions of ESB, ROTJ, or the prequels.

 

The "final 3 episodes" won't be made, and they don't exist really, except in people's fruitful imaginations. The series ends with ROTJ (Episodes 1-6). Ysalamiri were made up for the EU (Heir to the Empire) and they're supposed to come from some remote planet, so they're a "secret." It's because it wasn't Lucas' idea but something Tim Zahn came up with.

[Prime]

You will all be destroyed for your heresy.

With what? I hope it is with the nearly indestructable starfigher-sized superweapon that can destroy entire solar systems and can fly right through the bridge of a star destroyer and not take any damage!

 

w00t!

[swphreak]

I'll throw my indestructible Sun Crusher micromachine through your head.

 

Why are we even discussing this? The idea of "restarting" an entire universe is just silly. We can't "restart" our history, why should we do that for Star Wars?

 

Kurgan's posts are too long. I know, let's restart his history so he hates to write!

[Lord_MalaKdoggk]

That's a fine explanation, but the fact that his lightsaber changes color is a gaffe, it's supposed to be blue always, until he loses it on cloud city and builds a new one that's green. In the original movie it was blue/white, it only turned green in the special edition and then in the 2004 edition they fixed it in places but generally screwed up all the saber colors (Vader's appears violent/pink or even orange in a few scenes). This is not normal lightsaber behavior of course, because it didn't happen in previous versions of ESB, ROTJ, or the prequels.

 

The "final 3 episodes" won't be made, and they don't exist really, except in people's fruitful imaginations. The series ends with ROTJ (Episodes 1-6). Ysalamiri were made up for the EU (Heir to the Empire) and they're supposed to come from some remote planet, so they're a "secret." It's because it wasn't Lucas' idea but something Tim Zahn came up with.

 

Thats really sad as I've read all 9 novels plus 'splinter of the minds eye' and feel NO closure the way the franchise currently is. Why another set of twins unless there's another battle somewhere ahead in time ??? It makes no sense to me that an Empire that spans thousands of years completely collapses in the span of a few years, and without a second thought of the people out in the fringes of the galaxy doing the work of the empire.

[arkodeon]

I don't really think anyone has thought of the logistics of a restart.

 

That would mean that contracts with publishing companies would have to be halted, revamped, and all current books put out by publishers would be a loss of profit. If George Lucas suddenly went "Oh no, all EU must be abolished, and restarted" then all current books being sold, and any new books in the works, would have to be regarded as a deficit due to the fact that the books would not be able to be published or sold any longer.

 

Chances are book publishers and the contracts themselves will be strained, and even terminated. You cannot just walk in one day and say "Oops. We made a booboo. Time to wipe the slate clean."

 

Honestly, that would never happen. Not if Lucas' Companies wants their precious money.

[Kurgan]

I'll throw my indestructible Sun Crusher micromachine through your head.

 

Why are we even discussing this? The idea of "restarting" an entire universe is just silly. We can't "restart" our history, why should we do that for Star Wars?

 

Kurgan's posts are too long. I know, let's restart his history so he hates to write!

 

Yeah, let's continue to make fun of me instead of addressing my points in a rational manner.

 

We can't "restart" OUR history because it actually happened!

 

Fictional history can very well be restarted, and has in several successful franchises (Marvel comics, Battlestar Galactica, for example). What in that can't you understand? You're confusing "but I don't wanna!" with "it's impossible to do."

 

Doing so for Star Wars would have many possible benefits, which I already repeated. But go ahead continue to mock me because this idea is so offensive to you... So my posts are too long eh (where have I heard that one before?), that explains why you address them with such short, trite rebuttals...

 

Struck a nerve? No, I'm just tired.

[Kurgan]

I don't really think anyone has thought of the logistics of a restart.

 

That would mean that contracts with publishing companies would have to be halted, revamped, and all current books put out by publishers would be a loss of profit. If George Lucas suddenly went "Oh no, all EU must be abolished, and restarted" then all current books being sold, and any new books in the works, would have to be regarded as a deficit due to the fact that the books would not be able to be published or sold any longer.

 

How does that follow? They can continue to sell the merchandise even if it's non-canon. The Star Trek franchise considers none of its novels canon and yet they are still published, sold and beloved by fans. This notion that all the current EU would have to be pulled from shelves at a loss if there was a franchise restart is not a logical outcome. They already sell non-canon Star Wars materials now, anyway, such as Star Wars Tales (the first 20 installments anyway) and Infinities.

 

They have cancelled Star Wars products before, for example the NJO was planned to be much longer than it actually turned out to be. They could either wait until the projects that are already in progress are finished (what, are they tied up from now until doomesday? I doubt that), or just divert those energies into different projects. Or finish them up and release them as non-canon. They could even run two continuities simultaneously as Marvel does. It doesn't matter. They could even do a "Crisis on Infinite Earths" like DC comics did sometime down the line to get rid of some continuity they don't want anymore.

 

The point is, in a fictional franchise you can do a lot of things. Maybe you don't want that to happen, but that's different than saying it's unfeasible.

 

Chances are book publishers and the contracts themselves will be strained, and even terminated. You cannot just walk in one day and say "Oops. We made a booboo. Time to wipe the slate clean."

 

Why would they become "strained"? Are you saying the authors of the EU are more concerned with the integrity of the story than recieving a paycheck for their work? Already Star Wars authors are "forced" to bridle their creativity in order to "conform" to the demands of George Lucas for the sake of continuity (though we've seen how imperfectly that process works).

 

Do you think people would quit just because their artistic vision was not fully realized? They considered that when they signed on to write Star Wars books... comes with the territory. Of course "terminated" sounds like you're saying they would be fired. Why not just give them a new project?

 

I can't, but George Lucas can. He's not a prisoner of his own canon, he can run the franchise how he chooses (if you doubt me, look at all the silly decisions he's made in the past 20 years, and the franchise survives).

 

Honestly, that would never happen. Not if Lucas' Companies wants their precious money.

 

Maybe, maybe not. I'm saying there are good reasons for doing it if you chose to. Obviously a lot of people in this thread wouldn't want it to happen, but that doesn't mean it's something impossible, just not what they would want. I'm discussing possibilities, not claiming to know what Lucas will do.

[Prime]

I'll throw my indestructible Sun Crusher micromachine through your head.

OMFG MY EYE!! JEEZ I'M BLIND!!

 

Why are we even discussing this? The idea of "restarting" an entire universe is just silly. We can't "restart" our history, why should we do that for Star Wars?

I'm not taking it that far, I'm just saying canon should be more selective.

 

Kurgan's posts are too long. I know, let's restart his history so he hates to write!

Why not just use the edit button.

[Shok_Tinoktin]

They could even run two continuities simultaneously as Marvel does.

 

I hadn't really thought of that. I don't think I would care much if they did do this.

[Kurgan]

OMFG MY EYE!! JEEZ I'M BLIND!!

 

I'm not taking it that far, I'm just saying canon should be more selective.

 

Why not just use the edit button.

 

Don't tempt me!

 

Oh, you mean him.

[Astrotoy7]

hey! stay on topic!

 

Im still with phreak, the restart makes no sense, it would cheapen the great aspects of current EU.

 

Also, what makes anyone think that the "reloaded" EU is going to be any darn better !! With new star wars properties continuing to be produced in a variety of media, new contradictions will be created, and new retcons devised to gel them together.... you'll end up with the same situation again... History repeats itself in fiction too

 

for the reload

 

also, Im sure someone will be able to confirm this, but most of the retconning has been done in ****** comics. I'd venture to say that Phreak and myself are more versed in the novels(I definitely am) so havent been plagued by this realisation.... so dont restart teh whole of EU(especially some of the great books) just because the comics industry are "retcon whores"...

 

Randy Stradley and Co. should be drawn and quartered fo rsetting into motion this chain of events that has resulted in mods throwing micro machines and endless admin Force Lomg Posts(including a double post!)

 

mtfbwya

[Prime]

Also, what makes anyone think that the "reloaded" EU is going to be any darn better !! With new star wars properties continuing to be produced in a variety of media, new contradictions will be created, and new retcons devised to gel them together.... you'll end up with the same situation again... History repeats itself in fiction too

Well, at the very least everyone will be starting from the complete set of films, which would eliminate the issues (until the TV shows I guess) of g-canon blowing segments of the EU out of the water caused by the authors not knowing at the time (clone wars, jedi stuff, force ghosts) and George not caring so much about the EU.

 

I guess that is the sort of thing I'd like to clean up.

[MachineCult]

George Lucas must be the most hated man by his own fanbase.

[Astrotoy7]

George Lucas must be the most hated man by his own fanbase.

 

c'mon he's made billions. If I was GL and in that position, I'd take out a whole page in the New York Times, with a huge photo flippin the bird at the camera, and the caption "It's my creation. I can do what the **** I want!"

 

But he's played all the whiners like a damn violin....releasing the "original-original trilogy" on dvd was a stroke of marketing and PR genius

 

mtfbwya