Little Changes I'd like to see for Enhanced 0.1.0

[UDM]

Current system works fine for me, I hardly unintentionally kick

[Sushi_CW]

The current system works pretty well, but what about using crouch instead? That way, there wouldn't be the extra jump, and you wouldn't need to have that silly looking backflip animation. Just make it so that players can crouch even when slowbounced, and that anyone who is crouched can't be kicked over. Also, the attacker would know that kicking is useless since the defender would be obviously crouched.

[JackBaldy]

To be honest I am more for a complex system even if it means you have to read a manual. Like OJP's current system, complex, but because of the complexity it is extremely good in my opinion. Simply put, I am more for complex and skillful system than an easier less complex more noob friendly system. Dumbing down the system isn't an answer, trust me... xD

[Maxstate]

To be honest I am more for a complex system even if it means you have to read a manual. Like OJP's current system, complex, but because of the complexity it is extremely good in my opinion. Simply put, I am more for complex and skillful system than an easier less complex more noob friendly system. Dumbing down the system isn't an answer, trust me... xD

What he said.

[JRHockney*]

The current system works pretty well, but what about using crouch instead? That way, there wouldn't be the extra jump, and you wouldn't need to have that silly looking backflip animation. Just make it so that players can crouch even when slowbounced, and that anyone who is crouched can't be kicked over. Also, the attacker would know that kicking is useless since the defender would be obviously crouched.

 

Hmm, thats a really good idea! It wouldn't have the same problems as the other two. Geez, why didnt I think of that in the first place! LOL

 

And I am not by any means trying to dumb down the system for noobs, but there is a difference between complexity and annoying features that are potential exploits. I've been pushing for more complexity since 0.0.3 and I have come up with several ideas in order to increase the complexity further, many of which have been approved and will end up in a future version unless plans change. Little things like this (what I've been talking about above) are not worth the trouble when there is a better solution (like what Sushi just suggested).

[JackBaldy]

Well what I was trying to say was, countering kick would be too easy. Even with just crouching. Since it won't effect jedi/sith outside of slowbounce, and it puts you in a world of trouble (no blocking etc), then what is the point in using it? Holding crouch wouldn't penalize your opponent in anyway, completely easy to do.. and would counter kicking, I say just remove it then lol.

[JRHockney*]

Well what I was trying to say was, countering kick would be too easy. Even with just crouching. Since it won't effect jedi/sith outside of slowbounce, and it puts you in a world of trouble (no blocking etc), then what is the point in using it? Holding crouch wouldn't penalize your opponent in anyway, completely easy to do.. and would counter kicking, I say just remove it then lol.

 

The whole kicking over thing was never meant to be the timing trap it is right now. The way it is right now, all you have to do is learn to kick him torward the end of their slow bounce and they either fall over or like jump and waste DP. It was never meant to be like that and it is already changed to alt attack in the code anyways. Besides, the slowbounce-to-kick can happen fast enough to where the opponent doesnt remember to press crouch anyways. Maybe we can create an alternative move if its such an issue.

[razorace]

So, the general consensious is to switch the button from kick to crouch then?

[Maxstate]

MB-like crouch spam annoyed the **** outta me.. but I dont think my opinion will change much, so do as you please.

[JRHockney*]

So, the general consensious is to switch the button from kick to crouch then?

 

Um...I'm not sure. LOL. There are a few different opinions. I starting to think I should make a poll. But honestly, for what we were originally trying to occomplish with added a kick block (basically to avoid overuse and spam of the kick), the crouch is the best idea I think.

 

Although jack has a point about not making it too simple. We should probably start think of another move that can be used on a slowbounce that can also be blocked by a different button. Maybe a slower version of the MB2 slap!!! LOL! Actually, the saber disarm move using the saberlock anim idea that I came up with a while ago might be a good possibility for this too.

[razorace]

Polling it sounds like a good idea.

[Sushi_CW]

I suppose there is a possibility that people will instinctively crouch when slowbounced, all the time. This would be lame. To counterbalance that, how about making it so that you can't parry while crouched? This would avoid crouch spamming, and make it so the defender has to guess whether or not the attacker will kick or swing.

 

While I'm at it, I'd like to raise the suggestion again that lunges be parryable. That means that in a bounce/slowbounce situation, the attacker would have three basic options: normal swing, lunge, or kick. The defender would have means of countering any one of these, but not all: crouching to block kicks, hold forward to block lunge, or hold in other directions to block normal swings. This would encourage attackers to use a variety of attacks when the defender is slowbounced, since if they spam one the defender would catch on quickly.

 

This is turning into Saber Suggestions 2.0...

 

P.S. (actually on topic)

The main things I'd like to see in 0.1.0

1) The DP regen pauses. IMO these make the game much, much more playable. I miss the code server...

2) The ability to parry lunges on slowbounce.

3) Saber locks that do something. Anything.

 

My comments on Jon's other suggestions are in the Saber Suggestions thread...

[JRHockney*]

I suppose there is a possibility that people will instinctively crouch when slowbounced, all the time. This would be lame. To counterbalance that, how about making it so that you can't parry while crouched? This would avoid crouch spamming, and make it so the defender has to guess whether or not the attacker will kick or swing.

 

Well, I wouldn't be opposed to that, but at the moment, you can't parry in slowbounce at all.

 

While I'm at it, I'd like to raise the suggestion again that lunges be parryable. That means that in a bounce/slowbounce situation, the attacker would have three basic options: normal swing, lunge, or kick. The defender would have means of countering any one of these, but not all: crouching to block kicks, hold forward to block lunge, or hold in other directions to block normal swings. This would encourage attackers to use a variety of attacks when the defender is slowbounced, since if they spam one the defender would catch on quickly.

 

Another good idea especially with the first idea, but I'm not sure if razor wants parries in slowbounce. I think its a good idea because we are already trying to make the slow bounce more like a reversal rather than a stun (which heavy bounce should be), and the fact that the rounds go alot quicker now. Maybe make regular swings do as much damage as lunge when you get hit in slow bounce too? I think I will do a poll on this topic.

[JRHockney*]

Ok, I have one final (hopefully) list of bugs, exploits, or changes that at least I think should be fixed or changed before the next release:

 

1. add alt attack as a requirement for saber lock winning. This has already gotten the Ok for the most part but I'll put it here for reference.

 

2. Penalize crouch somehow. While I do kind of like jacks idea, we really just need to get a build out. So I heard you thought disabling parry while crouching might work. I agree. Maybe we could make jacks idea a togglable feature in the future. That would rule.

 

3. Lunge still seems spammable even after we lowered its damage sadly. I suggest two possible fixes: 1. make parrying it cause slow bounce all the time (because its hard to parry). 2. Make a cool down period like jack suggested.

 

4. Bunny hopping. It allows for very very easy escapes. This is definitely a potential problem, and I'm not entirely sure of a good way to stop it other than making those jumps cost FP as well. I suppose we could just call it label it OJP taboo and refuse to continue a fight if someone uses it at least for the next build.

 

5. Drain! It sucks your FP to zero the first second you use it and doesnt do skwat. I've made a few suggestions at the force thread, but I think we just need to make a decision for the next build even if its a simple and not permanent one. Any other suggestions?

 

6. At the saber suggestions thread, I have this idea for the reason stated:

I when you said on the code server that conversions should only be done when a person is heavy bounced, I must say I agree with that because they can happen pretty easily if you aiming right or even seemingly at random; however, this gives me an idea.

 

Maybe they should only happen on a normal slowbounce when a person is holding crouch. While I'm not sure this is a better idea than making double damage for hitting a person in slowbounce with a no kick, it just might be enough to make the players watch a little more carefully before they automatically press crouch in a slowbounce and hopefully saving the slowbounce kick combo from going in to near future extinction against vets. Personally, I think it would be better if both ideas were in there but I'll take what I can get on this idea.

 

Plllleeeaaaassseeee take this seriously if you arent already. I think it whether it or some similar idea is in this game could determine the future extinction of the "kick the slowbounce" move amoung vets, which would be a shame considering how cool it has always been.

 

7. Running. I havent decided if I think its too easy or not. All I know is that I was able to do waaay too much damage to jack using it before he finally killed me, and I'm not even very good at fighting like that! Maybe make it so that all parrying on it cause slowbounces or other mishaps like the attack parry does? Good runners will still be a threat, but at least this way we have a more proficient way of slowing them down a bit.

 

Hmmm, I feel like I'm forgetting something but I cant think of it right now. Anyways, that should do it. Now lets get all or most of these problems or changes done so we can enjoy a new build, take a break, and not worry about it for a while.

 

Any thing else?

[razorace]

3. Lunge still seems spammable even after we lowered its damage sadly. I suggest two possible fixes: 1. make parrying it cause slow bounce all the time (because its hard to parry). 2. Make a cool down period like jack suggested.

It sounds like the issue might be with the way lunges are triggered. I'll have to check that.

4. Bunny hopping. It allows for very very easy escapes. This is definitely a potential problem, and I'm not entirely sure of a good way to stop it other than making those jumps cost FP as well. I suppose we could just call it label it OJP taboo and refuse to continue a fight if someone uses it at least for the next build.

Well, right now, you can't regen anything, it's basically just annoying. We could add a FP drain, but first I need to figure out how to do that with the jump code.

5. Drain! It sucks your FP to zero the first second you use it and doesnt do skwat. I've made a few suggestions at the force thread, but I think we just need to make a decision for the next build even if its a simple and not permanent one. Any other suggestions?

It doesn't just act like lightning?

 

7. Running. I havent decided if I think its too easy or not. All I know is that I was able to do waaay too much damage to jack using it before he finally killed me, and I'm not even very good at fighting like that! Maybe make it so that all parrying on it cause slowbounces or other mishaps like the attack parry does? Good runners will still be a threat, but at least this way we have a more proficient way of slowing them down a bit.

It's already been nerfed pretty hard. Everything! does like double damage while the dude is running. Adding guarnteed slow bounces and such would probably just make it really frustrating for newbie basejka players.

[JRHockney*]

It sounds like the issue might be with the way lunges are triggered. I'll have to check that.

 

Alright, just please make it so its not so easy to use and or spam.

 

Well, right now, you can't regen anything, it's basically just annoying. We could add a FP drain, but first I need to figure out how to do that with the jump code.

 

Ok no rush on this one as far as I'm concerned. It should be fixed, but we can probably get awawy with it for the next build by just saying to the hopper "you just forfeited that fight!" LOL.

 

It doesn't just act like lightning?

 

it probably does, but last time I checked, it drained you fp to 0 in less then a second. That needs to be fixed badly and we still should make it do something a little different. I mean, "red lightning?" Its just not movie realistic and we might want to get rid of the lightning effect all together with it. We can do better than that I'm sure. I say, make it like a dark cloud type force power that makes the opponent unable to use force power for 5, 10 or 15 seconds depending on how long you blast them and require at least 10 FP to make the 5 second thing work. Hmmm, or maybe make them unable to regen FP for that period of time? I dont know. This is more of a force thread discussion but what do you think? I offered several possibilities at that thread, this is just one of them that I thought might be the easiest to code.

 

It's already been nerfed pretty hard. Everything! does like double damage while the dude is running. Adding guarnteed slow bounces and such would probably just make it really frustrating for newbie basejka players.

 

Well, it was the same way in 0.0.9 wasnt it? And now they cant be parried into a slow bounce until their mishap meter is high unlike 0.0.9 and even back then, it was still VERY possible to fight well as a runner. So in a sense, we've made it easier to be a runner in this version, which is not what we are trying to go for here, right? At least this way we can slow them down a bit.

[Maxstate]

Oh, not to forget: I want attack fakes/power slashes whatever to affect runners like they used too; instabounce. And I want it now!1111111

[JRHockney*]

Oh, not to forget: I want attack fakes/power slashes whatever to affect runners like they used too; instabounce. And I want it now!1111111

 

And I want a pony!!! And I want it delivered!!!

[JRHockney*]

Ohh Hocks.. I didnt know you swung that way

 

 

eeewwwwww. And with that we are... ooooooooOOOOOOFF TOPIC!! Ok, too much sarcasm for this thread from us here. Razor and everyone else, just read above our stupid comments! LOL.

[Maxstate]

eeewwwwww. And with that we are... ooooooooOOOOOOFF TOPIC!! Ok, too much sarcasm for this thread from us here. Razor and everyone else, just read above our stupid comments! LOL.

Or I could just delete-edit my posts here goes.

[JackBaldy]

razorace

"It's already been nerfed pretty hard. Everything! does like double damage while the dude is running. Adding guarnteed slow bounces and such would probably just make it really frustrating for newbie basejka players."

 

So an unmovie realistic option should be viable to cater to basejka noobs? With all due respect, they should just learn the how to play by walking instead of doing unmovie realistic things. Right now you can parry while running and the only penalty you have is double damage. Running around means you are faster than a walking opponent thus you can more easily dodge his attacks and force him to run too, forcing the walker to run a much more larger amount than he would normally run.

 

razorace

"Well, right now, you can't regen anything, it's basically just annoying. We could add a FP drain, but first I need to figure out how to do that with the jump code."

 

Even if you can't regen any DP or FP, it really doesn't matter because they can still make an easy getaway and regen later. Not only that, it isn't movie realistic. I was thinking that you should add a cooldown to jumping like MB2.

 

razorace

"It sounds like the issue might be with the way lunges are triggered. I'll have to check that."

 

Well, even if they weren't spammable combo wise, I am almost positive they would still be a problem, and here's why. Lunge does the same damage as an attack fake, but is much more faster and easier to pull of, and since most of the time your opponent is walking he/she will be an easy target plus lunge is too fast to see it coming. I was thinking OJP should make lunge auto knockdown running players and have a wider arc (and do no damage, so lunge is only utility and not some way to cheap your opponent).

 

Maxstate

"Oh, not to forget: I want attack fakes/power slashes whatever to affect runners like they used too; instabounce. And I want it now!1111111"

 

That would be nice and I agree.

[Sushi_CW]

Bunny hopping:

I think a slight FP drain for non-force jumps would be effective. As a more extreme measure, we could reenable push/pull vulnerability for players in the air.

 

Lunge spam:

Maybe make it so that it is always parried unless the defender is 1) moving away or 2) in a bounce, knockdown, roll, mishap, etc? I'm not actually sure I like this idea, but what the heck, I'll throw it out. The idea is that lunge would be a specialty move to catch players in a vulnerable position and players that are retreating backwards.

 

Running:

This has always been a tricky problem, but I don't think it's too big of a deal. Runners should lose the FP battle if they are always doing it, although right now they can usually net an increase in FP by running to a safe distance and resting. Maybe running backwards/sideways should drain FP slightly?

 

At any rate, I don't think we need any major new penalties to fix current weaknesses: slight tweaks should be enough. As you can see, I tend to think that the answer lies in making "run-away" moves something that will cost you extra in the FP department. Hard to say though: these are issues that have been around for a while, and have proven themselves tricky to solve.

 

As far as what else I would like to see before 0.1.0 release: you guessed it. Tweaks to the mishap bar, especially giving it a slow steady drain...the rest of my ideas are in the Saber Suggestions thread.

[JackBaldy]

@Sushi: All your ideas would make OJP an endurance run instead of actual fighting. Like when x or y runs out of endurance x would win etc. I don't like the fact that all your ideas don't really fix the unmovie realistic parts. Running a viable option in the movies? No, because if it was we would have seen it much much more. Bunny hopping a viable option in the movies? No because if it was we would have seen it done. And that idea about lunge spam, why not have lunge be a utility power? In Obiwan vs Anakin in Mustafar OBiwan always kept going backwards and defending, so now we should have a move that disallows that kind of movie like defense? Time to realize something folks, do you want to mainstream this mod or do you actually want it to be movie realistic?

[UDM]

Sushi, you made an interesting point about running, but it may end up slowing gameplay too much. Instead of letting running deplete force points, why don't we cut more force points when players run while attacking? I think defence while running should just penalize the player on DP and mishap

 

Btw, I think meatgrinder should have a higher force regen rate. It gets awfully boring in Siege when players run out of force points. Not because of fighting, but due to travelling ie force speed

[Maxstate]

If a dude runs backwards to regain dp I attack fake him and he bounces.

If a dude uses force speed to run away, be it the one I suggested or the current one, I pull him towards me or push him to the ground.