Did Yoda succumb to Dark Side Temptation?

[Kurgan]

I know this was posted a long time ago, but...

 

That is your interpretation of what you see. However, in the novelization, which is just as high g-canon, we are told that this isn't the case:

 

Except despite the status of the novel, if any part of it contradicts what we see in the actual movie, the movie wins, hands down.

 

"More lightning poured forth from Dooku's hand, but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture...Dooku disengaged his futile lightning assault."

 

"Turn it"? Turn it into light side lightning? Bounce it back? It's a little vague, anyway. Visuals win... and anyway we know VFX gets tweaked long after the novel has been published.

 

and in the similar case from ROTS:

 

"The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of its strength."

 

Except the VFX for the confrontation in Episode III and II are DIFFERENT. In ROTS Yoda never throws a bolt of lightning at Sideous. He does do that against Dooku however.

 

Which we are flat out told in the AOTC commentary.

 

Which, despite it being from Lucas's own lips, if it contradicts the movies, doesn't help us. He also calls the Imperials "Nazis" and mispronounces various names in the Star Wars universe, and so forth. This doesn't really prove anything beyond his stated intentions, circa 2002-2004.

 

and from Lucas directly.

 

And Lucas is notorious for changing his mind, hence why the movies are really the best guide to what is going on, not Lucas's statements about them (not that these statements aren't helpful of course).

 

"Sith Lightning" and "dark side power" are the terms Lucas used, and he mentions that he had Dooku display that power to make it clear to the audience that he was now indeed a user of the dark side and member of the Sith, and not just a Jedi who disagreed politically from the Jedi Order.

 

But he fails to explain Yoda's using of Lightning in the commentary. Lightning is never discussed in the movies themselves, so even the term "Force/Sith/Lightning" and even the term "force power" are never used by any Star Wars character.

 

Essentially the "dark/light side powers" are a game mechanic invented for the RPG and picked up by some EU writers. It makes for handy conversation, but it doesn't really accurately describe the movies. Otherwise we have canon examples of "Light Jedi" using "Dark Side powers" and yet not falling to the Dark Side (Luke choking people with the Force, Yoda throwing lightning at a person).

 

Even the games are not completely consistent either, since Mysteries of the Sith lets you use both kinds of powers and remain completely on the "light side" (another term which never shows up in the movies) and Jedi Academy's single player does the same (but not multiplayer).

 

The EU also has examples of a "Light" version of Lightning. It also of course makes it sound like turning to the Dark Side is a weekly occurence and isn't too hard to turn back from (despite Yoda thinking it was impossible to turn back from the Dark Side in the classic Trilogy, and the shock when Anakin is able to be turned back).

 

Yoda threw lightning in AOTC. That much is certain. The question is how we explain it, if we want to also simultaneously believe that using lightning is something only "Sith" can do, can only be generated by the Dark Side, and somehow makes you evil.

[Kurgan]

Firstly Yoda is considered the leader of

all that is good and sidious the big baddie of evil.

 

True, however one of the points of the Prequels was also to show that

the Jedi made mistakes and may even have been succumbing to corruption.

 

Look at the anger in Mace Windu's eyes when he is about to murder Palpatine

in Episode III. Not exactly ideal Jedi behavior there! And Yoda preaches against

war and violence with the Force in ESB, but in the prequels he doesn't seem

to quite have such a problem with it...

 

Sideous is evil, yes, but that doesn't mean his opponents are perfect either (I am not defending the bad guys here, just saying the Jedi aren't perfectly good, otherwise you'd think they would have caught onto the plot sooner and stopped it).

 

So to prove this while yoda and obi were at the temple obi saying that he

didnt want to face anikan but instead wanted to face sidious yoda replies

somthing like that you are not strong enough to face him either in the force

,pyhsical or both.

 

What I don't get is why they didn't BOTH go to face Sideous or Anakin. Surely both of them together would have been more powerful. Wipe out one Sith then the other, rather than splitting up. The good guys had no problem "ganging up" on their opponents before, why suddenly the more honorable approach of making it "fair" with a balanced battle? I never understood that.

 

And it's not as if Anakin was in a rush to get back to Sideous, he seemed like he was content to just hang around and brood after killing the Seperatists on Mustafar. Sideous didn't even consider going to him until he sensed he was in danger.

 

So yoda goes and faces him but even yoda couldnt have

beaten him. Heck if he was younger than he was sure I can see him beating him

but idk if age was the factor. You saw yoda reflect the force with his hands

a ability that none of the other jedi did.

 

True, although in the novelisation of ROTJ, Luke bends back Palpatine's lightning with his hand, for a second or two, before he is overwhelmed.

 

Other Jedi seem able to block lightning with their lightsabers only.

 

So obviously yoda was there best

chance if any to defeat sidious. I tend to think that sidious was in utter

horror of yoda stopping his attacks of lightning in the end. And besides

how can yoda grip him if both hands are tied up reflecting or

stopping sidious' lightning attacks?

 

True, but if he'd hung onto his lightsaber perhaps he could have been better off. And if he'd had Obi-Wan at his side, then it wouldn't matter if both his hands were "occupied"! He'd have Obi-Wan's two hands to help him.

 

Obviously it was a creative decision because Lucas wanted two simultaneous saber battles going on, but still...

 

Besides even though some1 frowns doesnt mean he was doing anything evil.

 

I'm saying Force Lightning isn't always evil, hence I have no problem with Yoda using it, even if it might be some "unorthodox" or sneaky tactic according to Jedi doctrine. The battle with Sideous was far more desperate than the one with Dooku, yet Yoda uses this ability (to THROW lightning) only in the less dire situation... why?

 

This is only a problem for the people who say that "Force Lightning" is an evil Dark Side power that only Sith or high level Dark Jedi can use. Thus they have to explain why Yoda seems to throw a bolt of lightning AT Dooku. Not only is that an offensive use of Force, but it's also supposedly a power that only the bad guys can use with impunity. Thus they have a problem. It doesn't really bother me anymore than Luke choking Gammoreans or Qui Gon pushing droids around.

 

Its an old guy taking on hmm idk how old sidious is but he deffinately had agility.

 

Palpatine is supposed to be about 63 years old in Episode III (assuming the "official" age of him given in TPM of 50 was accurate).

 

Dooku was supposed to be over 80 in Episode III and yet he's super powerful and moves faster than any old man could. Yoda hobbles with a cane! We know that the Force can make old infirm people move like the world's greatest acrobats and olympians. And just look at the Force combos that Dooku uses in Episode III.. very impressive! So mere physical age is not the sole determining factor in how these battles turn out, yes.

 

So when senator organa showed

yoda sounded disapointed because he couldnt stop him which equals

no one could thus the republic ended.

 

But had Obi-Wan helped him, I wonder if it would have turned out differently. It seems like Yoda didn't think his plan through completely. Likewise, why did he give up? He didn't seem that badly beaten, and surely the arrival of a few stormtroopers wouldn't have been that much more challenging (look how easily Yoda dispatches them at other times, and Dooku's super battle droid escorts proved no challenge for Obi-Wan earlier).

 

I tend to think the jedi went in hiding because they couldnt stop the threat

even with how good they were.

 

But they could still fight! Nothing really changed in 20 years except they got old and older and then they had to rely on a barely trained kid to fight for them? It seems like their chances for victory were greater in Episode III than IV-VI!

 

Plus, what would have stopped Obi-Wan and Yoda from BOTH going to Dagobah or Tatooine or Alderaan and raising the two children there, from birth? Pooling their resources? They only ended up training Luke anyway, so it's not like they would be putting all their eggs in one basket.

 

On Lukes choking incadent. Hey cmon these are gamoreans to stupid to persuade.

 

I don't believe it. Obi-Wan informs Luke that the "weak minded" are precisely the best kind of people to trick with the Force. And AOTC proves that Anakin can even manipulate a wild beast (if you want to say the Gammoreans are like mindless animals or something rather than like people). And it's not like aliens (non-humans) can't be tricked, because Luke persuades Bib Fortuna (who is surely stronger willed than those Gammoreans, right?) soon after (and we get Boss Nass being tricked in TPM... apart from Stormtroopers and the Deathstick salesman, those are the only characters that have been tricked, Watto and Jabba seemed immune).

 

so first thing on there minds would be to anihalate the intruder so waht he gonna

do.

 

We don't know that, they may just have wanted to arrest him (notice they just put up their spears to stop his approach, not start swinging/thrusting at him). Yoda reacts in a similar fashion to the Red guards in Episode III, except he Force slams them both into the wall, rather than choking them individually.

 

Im pretty much sure Luke had to show an impression to that twilak so

he will take him to jabba.

 

Except Luke was already practically in the inner chamber when he tricked Fortuna (I'm sure he could have found his way the few steps to the main audience chamber), and Bib didn't lead him anywhere, he just went back to his place by Jabba.

 

On considered light darkside powers. Hey can you possibly imagine a light side

person use lightning?

 

I don't need to imagine it, I see Yoda do it in AOTC. The games also show us "Light Jedi" throwing lightning, and we see some form of green lightning described in some of the EU (I believe it's in the New Jedi Order series, but I haven't read those).

 

or choke?

 

Even without the games, I don't need to imagine it since we see Luke do it in ROTJ.

 

lightning and choke can be considered

bad powers due to there intent. Choke and lightning mean to do harm to

a living being.

 

And Force push or throwing your lightsaber into their chest aren't? C'mon.

 

What if your intention was to choke them unconscious to incapacitate (rather than kill), or to use lightning to stun them (like a stun gun) rather than kill?

 

Which is nobler, to slice off somebody's arm with a charred stump, or to make their clothes a little toasty and their hair stand on end?

 

So I guess you can say im a its how you use them type.

LIght doesnt use them as tools for power etc while darkside does.

 

Well, you could still use force and other powers for "power." Jedi have no problem with mind trick, and that could be abused to have authority over others pretty easily. Qui Gon showed us that Jedi can cheat at dice, meaning they could clean out any casino and achieve vast wealth! (and if somebody catches you cheating, just mind trick them, heh).

[MasterRoss08]

Ok i gotta admit you got me there Kurg

Sideous is evil, yes, but that doesn't mean his opponents are perfect either (I am not defending the bad guys here, just saying the Jedi aren't perfectly good, otherwise you'd think they would have caught onto the plot sooner and stopped it).

true! This is why Sideous was such a sneak. I tend to believe that Sideous

tricked all the jedi only revealing to anikan just because of the circumstance he

was in

 

But they could still fight! Nothing really changed in 20 years except they got old and older and then they had to rely on a barely trained kid to fight for them? It seems like their chances for victory were greater in Episode III than IV-VI!

 

Plus, what would have stopped Obi-Wan and Yoda from BOTH going to Dagobah or Tatooine or Alderaan and raising the two children there, from birth? Pooling their resources? They only ended up training Luke anyway, so it's not like they would be putting all their eggs in one basket.

Ah so many uncertanties this is where the tv series comes in. All or

most of are answers will be revealed. Plus Anikan didnt know that his kids survived

thus palpatine revealing to him. Heck even palpatine prob didnt know till

later on when Luke revealed himself. But we dont know so hopefully the

series will shed some light on that.

[RC-1162]

What I don't get is why they didn't BOTH go to face Sideous or Anakin. Surely both of them together would have been more powerful. Wipe out one Sith then the other, rather than splitting up. The good guys had no problem "ganging up" on their opponents before, why suddenly the more honorable approach of making it "fair" with a balanced battle? I never understood that.

 

maybe they wanted to get with it ASAP? it could be a case of impatience for Yoda to get rid of the sith. you could see the resolution in his tone when he said "destroy the sith we must" to Obi Wan. but yeah, you do make a good point. if they had ganged on palpy, then there would have been no problem with anakin as he was still a n00b to the dark side.

 

True, although in the novelisation of ROTJ, Luke bends back Palpatine's lightning with his hand, for a second or two, before he is overwhelmed.

 

Other Jedi seem able to block lightning with their lightsabers only.

 

but its not exactly that they lack the capacity. just that they didn't have the time or didn't want to bother using the force that much, very clearly shown when Obi Wan was facing Dooku in EP2.

 

True, but if he'd hung onto his lightsaber perhaps he could have been better off. And if he'd had Obi-Wan at his side, then it wouldn't matter if both his hands were "occupied"! He'd have Obi-Wan's two hands to help him.

 

as far as i know, he dropped his blade when Sidious blasted at him with lightning. the thing here is, why didn't he see that coming? Jedi have foresight, don't they? i admit, Yoda did talk a lot about "clouded, the future is" and even so, Jedi are supposed to recover from any situation quickly. to think he just let his saber go was beyond me, especially against someone who was as powerful as Sidious. although, i think Sidious would have refrained from focusing more on either of them were Obi Wan present. he would have probably squealed like he did before Mace on that Office balcony.

 

But had Obi-Wan helped him, I wonder if it would have turned out differently. It seems like Yoda didn't think his plan through completely. Likewise, why did he give up? He didn't seem that badly beaten, and surely the arrival of a few stormtroopers wouldn't have been that much more challenging (look how easily Yoda dispatches them at other times, and Dooku's super battle droid escorts proved no challenge for Obi-Wan earlier).

 

he lost his blade and understood a lost cause. besides, he must have thought that the Jedi Order could be rebuilt, or at least preserved for some more time. if the Grand Master was somehow killed or crippled, Obi Wan wouldn't have been able to do much. you notice how soon into Luke's training he sacrificed himself. no way would Luke have been a Jedi then. and the Clones had no problem with blasting the crap out of several other Council Members across the galaxy. the garrison at the Temple was pwnt only because they got jumped.

 

But they could still fight! Nothing really changed in 20 years except they got old and older and then they had to rely on a barely trained kid to fight for them? It seems like their chances for victory were greater in Episode III than IV-VI!

 

you saw how Obi Wan handled the blade in EP4 . but yeah, Yoda could have made an appearance in EP4 instead of an episode later, but that was in GL's hands.

 

Plus, what would have stopped Obi-Wan and Yoda from BOTH going to Dagobah or Tatooine or Alderaan and raising the two children there, from birth? Pooling their resources? They only ended up training Luke anyway, so it's not like they would be putting all their eggs in one basket.

 

you know, that's what I've been thinking all along. its quite obvious that Leia was never notified of her force sensitivity. Luke knew his dad's real name, Leia didn't know even that. although he disbelieved it at first, Luke did accept that Anakin Skywalker was a Jedi. why wasn't Leia notified of the same? she could have been trained by Yoda in secret when her age came, then Luke would'nt have to go rushing to Bespin as Leia could take care of herself by then.

 

I don't need to imagine it, I see Yoda do it in AOTC. The games also show us "Light Jedi" throwing lightning, and we see some form of green lightning described in some of the EU (I believe it's in the New Jedi Order series, but I haven't read those).

 

that would be the "Emerald Sparks" power, according to Wookieepedia. I'm not all that sure if the name is canon, but the power is legit. Luke uses it in The Unifying Force.

 

Well, you could still use force and other powers for "power." Jedi have no problem with mind trick, and that could be abused to have authority over others pretty easily. Qui Gon showed us that Jedi can cheat at dice, meaning they could clean out any casino and achieve vast wealth! (and if somebody catches you cheating, just mind trick them, heh).

 

tsk tsk, so much potential wasted.

[Gug Eyewalker]

First in regards to force powers, quote from Jedi Academy:

 

"Powers from both the light and the dark side will be open to you. Remember it isn't the powers themselves that are inherently good or evil, it's how you use them."

-Kyle Katarn

 

That Kel Dorr Jedi master, I forgot his name, uses something called 'electric judgement' on those he feels deserve it. Its essentially force lightening.

 

In the EU, Jacen Solo used force lightning in the Vong War, and so did Luke later on, he blasted a Vong who was about to kill Jana (I think) with green lightening, just protecting his loved ones.

 

Luke also, when he had enough of Vader in ROTJ, seems to have temporarily fell to the dark side when he mowed Vader down, but this was when Vader threatened to turn Leia to the dark side - Luke could not let that happen. Palpatine misinterpreted this flurry of anger as having fallen to the dark side...he was wrong.

 

I noticed some people mentioning the novel Dark Rendezvous. Its a great novel revelaing much about Yoda. I remember him telling one of the kids that he was NOT a stranger to the dark side, and he was familiar with it.

 

Remember this is a Jedi that is 900 years old, he must have been through a lot during all those years, including temptation if not outright submission to the dark side (at least temporarily). We all go through it ourselves and we don't even have the power of a Jedi.

 

To me its simple. The force is not light or dark, but characters have both in them. Power corrupts. I don't know that absolute power corrupts absolutely, but when people get great power they are often tempted to do very shadey if not outright terrible things.

 

I beleive a true Jedi Master, all of them, would have been tempted by the dark side, would have gone through that trial of power and come out of it without letting their power control them. Even Yoda.

[Kurgan]

It doesn't matter how old Yoda is. He still makes mistakes and he was wrong about a lot of things.

 

He didn't believe that the Sith had taken over until it was too late.

 

He didn't believe it was possible to turn back from the Dark Side.

 

He at one time (like his colleagues) used the Force for attack and participated in wars, then later changed his mind and taught that those things were not part of the Jedi lifestyle.

 

He wanted Obi-Wan to kill Anakin, when in fact had he done so, the prophecy would not have been fulfilled (only as it turned out). He also wanted Luke to kill the Emperor and Vader, and yet that's not how it turned out. He justified this by his belief that Anakin was "gone... consumed by Darth Vader" when in fact Luke proved that there was "still good in him."

 

He thought that Luke would "destroy all for which [Han & Leia] have fought and suffered" if he went to face Vader on Bespin. That didn't happen.

 

He ran away from Sideous when it seems like he could have continued the fight, and went into exile for 20 years.

 

He foolishly decided to split up and take the Sith one on one instead of joining together with Obi-Wan to defeat them 2 to 1 with better odds, why?

 

He missed his chance to stop Dooku by tossing that giant pillar onto Dooku or using it to disable his ship, instead of levitating it in the air for no reason (or just force pushing them out of the way of the pillar and going after Dooku), thus prolonging the war which lead to countless more deaths.

 

And so on and so forth.

 

I'm not saying that Yoda NEEDS to be perfect or infallible. But I think people are assuming that because he's one of the good guys, because he's a Jedi Master, and 900 years old that he WOULDN'T make a mistake.

 

Yet we see that he's made tons of mistakes and is just as fallible as any other character in the saga. Obi-Wan makes numerous mistakes as well, as does Mace Windu, and all the other Jedi. Palpatine makes mistakes too. Luke makes mistakes, he just happens to be luckier than some of the other characters.

 

 

I think it's a mistake to say that there is no Dark or Light Side of the Force, since this is always how it has been in the Star Wars mythology from day one (well, technically it isn't the "Light Side" that is just what the normal "good nature" of the Force is called in the EU, for convenience thanks to the video games.. in ROTJ, it is simply called "the good side").

 

Vergere in the NJO is revealed to have been full of crap, telling lies and having opinions that were based on a biased POV.

 

There most certainly IS a Dark Side. And it is evil.

 

However, that doesn't mean Jedi are perfectly good, just because they aren't Sith or don't use the Dark Side.

 

The idea that a certain power is always Dark Sided on the other hand, does seem to be a mistaken impression, and that's what I'm arguing.

 

Force Lightning need not always be a "Dark Side Power" that you have to tap into the Dark Side to use.

 

On the other hand, in the EU, it seems pretty easy to fall to the Dark Side and pretty easy to turn back from it, and it seems like "Good" characters regularly "skirt the Dark Side" and seem none the worse for wear. So judge that as you wish.

 

I think by the movie standards, users of Force Lightning may tend to be Dark Sided, but "Good siders" can also use it if they are sufficiently powerful, they just tend not to favor it.

 

By EU standards, using lightning may be "Skirting the Dark Side" but since it's so easy to come back from the Dark Side, perhaps these "Light Siders" don't find it that big of a risk. Sort of like if drunk driving could only result in a paper cut. More people would probably risk driving drunk, than if it often resulted in death or crippling injuries.

[DJxPReDaToRZz]

I believe Yoda can use the darkside, and here's my reasoning: In Revenge of the Sith, When he meditating on Bail Organa's ship and Bail comes to tell him Obi Wan has made contact, Yoda opens his eyes, showing a yellow iris, which is seen in sith, as shown evidently by Sidious and Anikain, when he is evil. therefore, i believe yoda can use the darkside of the force, but is not fully corrupted by it.

[Genesismagician]

I know this is an old thread and I hate to sway off topic here, but after reading every post in this thread, I gotta say this...

 

You guys must love writing books. Look at the size of some your posts. haha

[GrandMasterMarek]

Yoda was not tempted the darkside during the force lightning attack he saw a vision of Anakin's children Luke & Leia that would be in future not decided by this moment he felt the duel was no longer is responsiblity to end the emperor

[Darth Solace]

My thoughts? Yoda suprised Palpatine by managing to repel such a powerful attack.

 

Don't try and read in-between the lines.

 

I agree. However some of the wisdom he had was based on his knowledge of the dark side. Even Palpatine said in order to understand the higher mysteries, one must study ALL the aspects, not just the dogmatic view of the Jedi.

 

It doesn't matter how old Yoda is. He still makes mistakes and he was wrong about a lot of things.

 

He didn't believe that the Sith had taken over until it was too late.

 

He didn't believe it was possible to turn back from the Dark Side.

 

He at one time (like his colleagues) used the Force for attack and participated in wars, then later changed his mind and taught that those things were not part of the Jedi lifestyle.

 

He wanted Obi-Wan to kill Anakin, when in fact had he done so, the prophecy would not have been fulfilled (only as it turned out). He also wanted Luke to kill the Emperor and Vader, and yet that's not how it turned out. He justified this by his belief that Anakin was "gone... consume by Darth Vader" when in fact Luke proved that there was "still good in him."

 

He thought that Luke would "destroy all for which [Han & Leia] have fought and suffered" if he went to face Vader on Bespin. That didn't happen.

 

He ran away from Sideous when it seems like he could have continued the fight and went into exile for 20 years.

 

He foolishly decided to split up and take the Sith one on one instead of joining together with Obi-Wan to defeat them 2 to 1 with better odds, why?

 

He missed his chance to stop Dooku by tossing that giant pillar onto Dooku or using it to disable his ship, instead of levitating it in the air for no reason (or just force pushing them out of the way of the pillar and going after Dooku), thus prolonging the war which lead to countless more deaths.

 

And so on and so forth.

 

I'm not saying that Yoda NEEDS to be perfect or infallible. But I think people are assuming that because he's one of the good guys, because he's a Jedi Master, and 900 years old that he WOULDN'T make a mistake.

 

Yet we see that he's made tons of mistakes and is just as fallible as any other character in the saga. Obi-Wan makes numerous mistakes as well, as does Mace Windu, and all the other Jedi. Palpatine makes mistakes too. Luke makes mistakes, he just happens to be luckier than some of the other characters.

 

 

I think it's a mistake to say that there is no Dark or Light Side of the Force, since this is always how it has been in the Star Wars mythology from day one (well, technically it isn't the "Light Side" that is just what the normal "good nature" of the Force is called in the EU, for convenience thanks to the video games.. in ROTJ, it is simply called "the good side").

 

Vergere in the NJO is revealed to have been full of crap, telling lies and having opinions that were based on a biased POV.

 

There most certainly IS a Dark Side. And it is evil.

 

However, that doesn't mean Jedi are perfectly good, just because they aren't Sith or don't use the Dark Side.

 

The idea that a certain power is always Dark Sided on the other hand, does seem to be a mistaken impression, and that's what I'm arguing.

 

Force Lightning need not always be a "Dark Side Power" that you have to tap into the Dark Side to use.

 

On the other hand, in the EU, it seems pretty easy to fall to the Dark Side and pretty easy to turn back from it, and it seems like "Good" characters regularly "skirt the Dark Side" and seem none the worse for wear. So judge that as you wish.

 

I think by the movie standards, users of Force Lightning may tend to be Dark Sided, but "Good siders" can also use it if they are sufficiently powerful, they just tend not to favor it.

 

By EU standards, using lightning may be "Skirting the Dark Side" but since it's so easy to come back from the Dark Side, perhaps these "Light Siders" don't find it that big of a risk. Sort of like if drunk driving could only result in a paper cut. More people would probably risk driving drunk, than if it often resulted in death or crippling injuries.

 

The light side and dark side are just terms to separate the good and bad of the person not really for the separation of the Force. The Force is just the Force. What determines good or bad is based what use and reason the individual has intended in using the Force. Even Luke used Force Lightning for good reasons.

 

Well said!!!

 

First in regards to force powers, quote from Jedi Academy:

 

"Powers from both the light and the dark side will be open to you. Remember it isn't the powers themselves that are inherently good or evil, it's how you use them."

-Kyle Katarn

 

That Kel Dorr Jedi master, I forgot his name, uses something called 'electric judgement' on those he feels deserve it. Its essentially force lightening.

 

In the EU, Jacen Solo used force lightning in the Vong War, and so did Luke later on, he blasted a Vong who was about to kill Jana (I think) with green lightening, just protecting his loved ones.

 

 

 

Luke also, when he had enough of Vader in ROTJ, seems to have temporarily fell to the dark side when he mowed Vader down, but this was when Vader threatened to turn Leia to the dark side - Luke could not let that happen. Palpatine misinterpreted this flurry of anger as having fallen to the dark side...he was wrong.

 

I noticed some people mentioning the novel Dark Rendezvous. Its a great novel revelaing much about Yoda. I remember him telling one of the kids that he was NOT a stranger to the dark side, and he was familiar with it.

 

Remember this is a Jedi that is 900 years old, he must have been through a lot during all those years, including temptation if not outright submission to the dark side (at least temporarily). We all go through it ourselves and we don't even have the power of a Jedi.

 

To me its simple. The force is not light or dark, but characters have both in them. Power corrupts. I don't know that absolute power corrupts absolutely, but when people get great power they are often tempted to do very shadey if not outright terrible things.

 

I beleive a true Jedi Master, all of them, would have been tempted by the dark side, would have gone through that trial of power and come out of it without letting their power control them. Even Yoda.

 

Anger shouldn't be confused with determination. When something has to be done, it has to be done...

 

I should make a distinction between "tempted" and "fell to the dark side."

 

There's a difference. I'm saying Yoda could and probably was tempted. I never said he actually became evil/darkside or a Sith. But write your fan fic anyway you want to.

 

 

Yoda blocking lightning:

 

 

Yoda throwing lightning:

 

Yoda never really "throws lightning". The image here is when he DEFLECTED lightning and not even back at Dooku.

[GrandMasterMarek]

Yoda would not turn to the darkside he is to strong in the force.

[sana09]

Never say never ... again

 

 

 

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[Kurgan]

It's good to see this topic is still getting responses, seven years after it was last contributed to.

 

Seriously though I think there's just a disconnect between what Lucas depicts onscreen, what he allows others to write in various books, comics and games, and then what he says after the fact, hence the confusion amongst fans over "what it all means."

 

In the movies, "only the bad guys" use Force lightning, EXCEPT for the time that Yoda throws lightning at Tyrannus (Dooku) in Episode II. And only Darth Vader chokes anybody, EXCEPT when Luke chokes TWO guys in ROTJ. So there you go. If some new book tries to explain it, fine, but it's once again just another attempt to explain something that isn't really too clear in the films. It seems just about every "rule" set for the Jedi or Sith at any given time has exceptions (and how do we know it's even a "rule"?). MTFBWY

[Alexrd]

EXCEPT for the time that Yoda throws lightning at Tyrannus (Dooku) in Episode II.

 

He absorbs it and reflects it back to Dooku/Tyranus. It's not like he conjured the lightning himself.

 

Luke did choke those guards, but just like his black robes, that was on purpose in order to make the audience wonder if Luke had fallen or not.

[Kurgan]

So there's a "loophole" where if you don't "conjure" the lightning yourself, you're off the hook? So why didn't Yoda just do this trick every time, instead of just once? It seemed a little more effective.

 

Anyway, I don't really buy that logic, it's like a guy who catches a knife thrown at him by an attacker, throws it back in the enemy's face and then says "I never use a knife."

 

As for Luke making us wonder, that's the thing, if he didn't fall, then we've basically just been told that "good guys" can use these powers and be fine. So we should be able to see any Jedi throw lighting and be fine, too, as annoying as some people might find that.

 

If I'm playing a game, that says a Jedi can only Force Jump once every five minutes, then fine, that's the rule of the game. I can respect that rule, but I understand it's a game mechanic. In the sense of the source material, it's a completely arbitrary restriction.

[Alexrd]

So there's a "loophole" where if you don't "conjure" the lightning yourself, you're off the hook? So why didn't Yoda just do this trick every time, instead of just once? It seemed a little more effective.

 

Where else would he use that "trick"? And it wasn't effective since Dooku reflected it too. The useful part (the absorption) was used again though.

 

As for Luke making us wonder, that's the thing, if he didn't fall, then we've basically just been told that "good guys" can use these powers and be fine. So we should be able to see any Jedi throw lighting and be fine, too, as annoying as some people might find that.

 

I wouldn't see it as fine. A Jedi can use the dark side and fall to it, but it's not the Jedi way.

 

If I'm playing a game, that says a Jedi can only Force Jump once every five minutes, then fine, that's the rule of the game. I can respect that rule, but I understand it's a game mechanic. In the sense of the source material, it's a completely arbitrary restriction.

 

I wouldn't call it arbitrary. The restriction is not in the ability to do it, but in the morality of doing it.

[Kurgan]

Where else would he use that "trick"? And it wasn't effective since Dooku reflected it too. The useful part (the absorption) was used again though.

 

My general opinion is that there isn't a lot of consistency with regard to "Force powers" in the Star Wars movies (nevermind the EU). This is a similar problem that plagues stories of wizards and comic book super heroes. The use of these "powers" is a plot device or excuse for "wowee" special effects, at its base, and so tends to work only when and where it serves that purpose, rather than something normal like a character breathing or walking.

 

Notice how the Jedi force push objects all over the place in Episode I, but when it comes to some droids with shields up, they run away. They never use Force "speed" ever again in the series. Force choke is not used consistently either. The various explanations for powers seem logical at first (ex: "using the force is mentally and physically taxing on an individual", for example; in some game mechanics this represented by the "force mana pool" and some "higher ranking" jedi/sith have larger force energy meters to help create this impression), but then we have instances of someone like Dooku using all sorts of "force combos" even in a heated situation (concentrating on multiple opponents at once).

 

The "absorption" where does the energy go? In Episode II it seems like Yoda at one point "absorbs" the lightning and then throws the lightning in Dooku's face, Dooku deflects it (why didn't Yoda ever deflect the lightning?) and then Yoda "absorbs" the lightning into his hand and it just goes away. In Episode III the lightning "builds" into a big "explosion." Was this "explosion" something Yoda planned? Was it something Sideous created? What was going on there? It's not explained. We just are left with the notion that whatever happened, happened. Do characters have to use judgment and mental reasoning to "choose" what powers they will use? Apparently they do, right, but then apparently they don't always choose the best or "right" power at the right moment. Or should we imagine that whatever the characters say, the Force "controls" them in a fight and chooses the powers for them, overriding their free will?

 

I wouldn't see it as fine. A Jedi can use the dark side and fall to it, but it's not the Jedi way.

 

The only character we've ever seen "fall" to the Dark Side (we only know someone "falls" because other characters say it's the case) is Anakin. His fall apparently didn't take place because he used certain powers, but simply because he wounded a former colleague to save the life of someone he thought could help him, and then "submitted" himself to that person's authority.

 

Unless of course we assume that a force sensitive person doing evil things is what turns you to the dark side (is this a process or something that happens in an instant?), then we get back to the old discussion of Anakin falling to the Dark Side in Episode II when he massacred a village in anger for his mother's death (or maybe we should say when broke his vows and married Padme, that was it? or was it when he got the breath mask installed at the end of Episode III was that it?). Luke attacked Vader and almost killed him, in anger (killing alone doesn't seem to turn you to the Dark Side) but didn't turn (not in the movie, in the EU he turned many years later for a different reason and then turned back with Leia's help).

 

I wouldn't call it arbitrary. The restriction is not in the ability to do it, but in the morality of doing it.

 

This is the thorny part. If someone knows they're doing wrong and decide to do it anyway, because they want to, or something evil in them desires it, that's one thing, but generally speaking the characters seem to act as if they believe they are doing the "right thing" in all cases, even when other characters recognize it as evil. From Anakin's "point of view" everything he's done in Episode III was with "good intentions." If we agree that what he did was immoral, even if he came up with justifications for doing so, even if he believed it wasn't evil, then we're saying falling to the dark side is what happens when a force sensitive person acts immorally. That's fine by me, but then it violates the notion that someone certain powers are "evil" and using them makes you turn evil. We can all come up with situations in which throwing lightning at someone or choking them with the force can be done for a "good" reason as opposed to evil (just as we can come up with justifications for using a lightsaber to hack somebody up).

 

If that's the case, then if Yoda has "good intentions" and they're objectively good (not just excuses he makes so he can do what his evil desires are) then it seems he should be able to throw force lightning. Why then say in one scenario it's moral to throw lightning but in another it's not. It would seem that throwing lightning at Palpatine's face in Episode III is justified. He did everything else he could to kill him and the scenes prior makes it clear Yoda is going to the Senate with the intention of killing Palpatine, even if Palpatine technically attacked him first (he was still threatening Palpatine at that point, and attacked his guards with the Force).

 

Maybe Lucas thought he'd scandalize his audience by having Yoda throw lightning, but he did everything he could to have him use it in Episode II, short of just walking up to someone and frying them to death with it. Even just 11 years ago, would any of us have imagined Yoda killing people with a lightsaber? Lots of people imagined he had one, even some EU stuff I'm sure considered him to have carried one, but the OT makes us think of him as some kind of pacifist. The Prequels changed that. So why are we still making limits on his powers? The continuity unfortunately makes Obi-Wan and Yoda seem like bumblers, but if we accept that they made serious mistakes (that contributed to their problems in the OT and even in the OT they weren't ") then it stands to reason that their "choices" in combat weren't always exceptional either?

 

The same problem happens in comics and wizard stories... it's like "Superman, why didn't you use your heat vision there, it could have saved the day?" "Harry, why didn't you use your freezing spell there" etc. Either the writer goofed up or hoped the audience wouldn't notice. We can create an in-universe explanation that in the heat of the moment, they just "forgot" because they're not impeccable or infallible people.

 

The answer to the question is then, Yoda didn't turn evil, so he didn't "succumb to the Darkside" when he used lightning, anymore than Luke did when he choked those guards. So use of certain powers, alone, doesn't make a person fall, apparently, if the movies are any indication. Though it might be interesting if there was a video game that simply gave you access to all force powers, but as soon as you used a "dark" power it then limited you to usage of those and similar powers and put you on the "bad guys" team.

[Alexrd]

His fall apparently didn't take place because he used certain powers, but simply because he wounded a former colleague to save the life of someone he thought could help him, and then "submitted" himself to that person's authority.

 

That's not an accurate depiction of what happened. He fell because of his fear of loss which eventually fed his lust for power. That's falling to the dark side. The dark side isn't just "evil" Force powers but acting on "bad" emotions, like anger, fear, hate, greed, etc...

 

Unless of course we assume that a force sensitive person doing evil things is what turns you to the dark side (is this a process or something that happens in an instant?)

 

Completely falling to the dark side, is a process. Accessing it can be done in an instant (Obi-Wan falling to his anger against Darth Maul for killing Qui-Gon, Anakin with the Tuskens, Luke when Vader threatened to turn Leia, etc...).

 

then we're saying falling to the dark side is what happens when a force sensitive person acts immorally. That's fine by me, but then it violates the notion that someone certain powers are "evil" and using them makes you turn evil.

 

Powers like lightning and choke are not good in any way. Their sole purpose is for hurting others. The decision of using them is evil by default. While Luke used them and wasn't evil, we must acknowledge the out of universe fact that the intention was to mislead the audiences.

 

We can all come up with situations in which throwing lightning at someone or choking them with the force can be done for a "good" reason as opposed to evil (just as we can come up with justifications for using a lightsaber to hack somebody up).

 

I can't. I see nothing good about the nature of choking and lightning someone.

 

Maybe Lucas thought he'd scandalize his audience by having Yoda throw lightning

 

But he just reflected what was thrown at him. He didn't conjure it.

[Kurgan]

That's not an accurate depiction of what happened. He fell because of his fear of loss which eventually fed his lust for power. That's falling to the dark side. The dark side isn't just "evil" Force powers but acting on "bad" emotions, like anger, fear, hate, greed, etc...

 

 

 

Completely falling to the dark side, is a process. Accessing it can be done in an instant (Obi-Wan falling to his anger against Darth Maul for killing Qui-Gon, Anakin with the Tuskens, Luke when Vader threatened to turn Leia, etc...).

 

So you agree it's a process. Okay, great. Because some people feel that falling to the Darkside is something that happens in an instant, that Anakin wasn't "on the Dark Side" until he knelt to Sideous and said "I submit myself to your teachings" and started acting like he was under a spell. I actually prefer the "process" idea as one can site acts of murderous rage back in Episode II, which speak much louder than his temper tantrums or flirtations with Padme against Jedi rules.

 

Powers like lightning and choke are not good in any way. Their sole purpose is for hurting others. The decision of using them is evil by default. While Luke used them and wasn't evil, we must acknowledge the out of universe fact that the intention was to mislead the audiences.

 

Here's where I don't agree. This is a case where it may be one interpretation of something Lucas said he "intended" or some game mechanic that skews things, but logically, lightning and choke, if they are supposedly evil because they can only be used to hurt, is a bit like saying lightsabers are evil, because they can only be used to hurt. I suppose. But you could also say that about the use of force in general. It hurts people, but it can be used for a greater good (yes, you can argue a slippery slope where even the bad guys think they are "doing [evil] for the greater good"). The Jedi talk about assassinations and taking over the government for the greater good. We're to assume they're either right, or simply not making good decisions because the bad guys have caused so much chaos they're out of options. Lightning can be used to stop an enemy to prevent harm to another. It could be a less lethal means of incapacitating someone. Same with "force choke."

 

If Luke had used the Force to slam the two guards approaching him into the wall, giving them concussions and knocking them unconscious (but presumably not killing them), as Yoda did in Episode III, would that have been more or less "evil"?

 

 

I can't. I see nothing good about the nature of choking and lightning someone.

 

So was Yoda "bad" to throw lightning at Dooku? Saying he "just reflected it" doesn't avoid this question. It's like saying it's wrong to shoot your gun at the enemy, but it's okay to use his own gun against him? (or maybe like Superman or Neo grabbing a shooter's bullet and tossing it back into the gunman's face?)

 

But he just reflected what was thrown at him. He didn't conjure it.

 

Is the power itself "tainting" or is it the effect of the power that is evil? Because if it's the latter, as you seemed to be arguing earlier, then that's a contradiction. Using lightning must be wrong because of its effects, and by appealing to its effects, Yoda did wrong to "reflect it" and it doesn't matter where the lightning came from originally. Just because it didn't hit its target and zap Dooku in that moment, doesn't remove the fact that this was what Yoda tried to do.

 

Plus, "reflect" is more like what Dooku himself did. Yoda appears to pause for a moment and focus the lightning after absorbing it into his hand. Dooku just brushes it aside like at the last second.

 

What I draw from this scene is that we're supposed to believe that this "lightning" is some kind of "new force trick" that Dooku knows, and Yoda doesn't. Since we've seen the other movies, we presume he learned it from Sideous. Yoda doesn't know how to do this new power, but he's powerful and smart enough to figure out a way to use the energy sent at him and use it against his enemy, like judo. But it doesn't give us the impression that Yoda wouldn't use lightning because it's evil and taints whatever it touches. Hurting your enemy might be just the right thing to do in a situation like this, if not outright killing him. If memory serves, originally Yoda was in fact about to KILL Dooku before he threatened the two wounded Jedi with that floating column (sadly I can't recall if that was in the screenplay or the novel, if anyone knows, please correct me). How using the Force to direct your lightsaber or other object through a person's body to kill them is okay, but doing the same (or less) damage with a bolt of lightning or force applied to the throat is evil, I don't get that logic.