TK-8252 Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Anyway, organized religion can be good since it's, well, organized. Sure, some people may believe in the same deity, but they might not grow in their spiritual faith if they solely prayed alone. While in what you call a group, people can discover more about their faith through the experience of others. Besides, the world wouldn't even be able to function if everyone stayed "in a closet," so why can't religion be organized like everything else? Here's the problem: "faith" is not a good thing. It is - by definition - the solid belief in something without evidence. It is illogical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 So? If you had faith you could jump out of a window and fly then I'd back you. Same with religion, it should not matter that someone follows religion, or does not, yet it seems to be a real issue for people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Same with religion, it should not matter that someone follows religion, or does not, yet it seems to be a real issue for people. It becomes an issue when fundamentalist "people of faith" control all three branches of government and every armed conflict in the world as of now is driven by religious ideology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Windu Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Honestly, this topic bores me. Loaded words abound and mass generalizations about some inherent evil, blah blah. It's been done before. Religion kills people like chocolate makes Rosie O' Donnell fat. There is no "evil" (note the loaded word) in religion. Religion itself offers peace and faith for those wishing to find it, and salvation in some cases. Other religions offer enlightenment. What you do with it is up to you. Religion's been the cause of wars, true. But how convenient for religion to exist as a scapegoat (read: cause) where power and greed are the true dogs of war? x causes b insert one of the following for x: religion lust power greed vengeance desire oil insert one of the following for b: war loss grief suffering pain Fanatics are fanatics; it honestly doesn't matter what your belief is if you are a fanatic, you'll do whatever and justify it through any assortment of means (see x) Quick checklist to see if you're a fanatic: []blind faith []blind faith []blind faith []random cause check where applicable. edit: @ TK - half the things in this world are illogical; it's what makes them beautiful. Don't let yourself be bound by logic. If you choose not to believe in something, then don't believe in something. Believe in disbelief. Oh dear, did I just make you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Oh dear, did I just make you think? You sir, with your current sig and avatar, will never make me think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Windu Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Because being a good little conformist and having a pseudo "cool" stormtrooper icon is sheer orgasmic thought, right? At any rate, if you won't listen to me, listen to Shepherd Book "When I talk about belief, why do you always assume I'm talking about God? " "I don't care what you believe in, just believe in it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Because being a good little conformist and having a pseudo "cool" stormtrooper icon is sheer orgasmic thought, right? Your use of the word "conformist" shall doom you to an eternity in the fiery pits of emo-hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Windu Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 AHHHHH!!!!!!!!111 MY HAIR FALLS OVER MY EYES!!11111 clearly the pichu hides the true meaning of your very existence, you heathen! You cannot see past the yellow electric exterior, nor the red cape and wrestling tights to see the truth within.. back on topic though... erm... where's your refutation of my points damnit? I guess I'll add that religion as an institution itself cannot be inherently evil.. as it teaches almost nothing that we would deem "evil". To answer the question of the actual poll of whether religion has done more harm than good... religion helps about 3 billion people in the world today(or they believe it helps them, if you so prefer semantics and word games) plus the 3 billion that existed in countless years before. religion has caused the deaths of millions of people. noope, looks like it does more good than bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 erm... where's your refutation of my points damnit? You make fair points; you seem to be making the argument that religion doesn't kill people... people kill people, which is an argument that holds truth. Religion, however, is the tool, or the justification that people use to commit evil acts, whether they be murdering abortion doctors or flying planes into buildings. There's been so many stories of young men who go on a trip to the Middle East, convert to Islam, and then blow themselves up in Israel. Of course we must be careful about the logical fallacy... just because situation A happened doesn't mean situation B is its result. But surely these young men - without "finding god" - wouldn't have turned themselves into human bombs. religion helps about 3 billion people in the world today(or they believe it helps them, if you so prefer semantics and word games) plus the 3 billion that existed in countless years before. Aha, I'm going to use your own argument against you! Religion doesn't help people... people help people. Religion is just the tool, or the justification that people use to help themselves and others. The difference is that you don't see atheists detonating bombs at abortion clinics or flying planes into buildings. Those seem like evil acts that are specific to "people of faith." Freethinkers are just as capable of helping themselves and others as those of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Windu Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 would have worked, except I clarified in the parentheses beforehand... sorry my statements are already following the logic that has been suggested by this thread as an example. You little eager beaver, you. the difference is that you see atheists capable of doing such things, if not worse. What's to prevent a jaded atheist from capping 12 people and then himself cause he's tired of his existence and of questioning God? Nooothing. The ratio of Christians to atheists is alarmingly high, isn't it? Plus, killing in the name of religion is much more easily justified than killing in the name of atheism, is it not? (At any rate, you can't ask the guy for justification... he's dead. ) Just as easy for an atheist to bomb a church. Why don't they? Apathy, lack of effort, or plain common sense? You decide. Me and the rest of the freethinkers/religious people/atheists/agnosts/people with common sense will be sipping lemonade under the comfortable shade of the intelligence umbrella, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 What's to prevent a jaded atheist from capping 12 people and then himself cause he's tired of his existence and of questioning God? Nooothing. Nothing. That is correct. Robbery, theft, murder, rape, etc. are not crimes specific to any kind of religious or ethnic group. But flying planes into buildings and blowing up abortion clinics appear to be atrocities exclusive to religious fundamentalists. No one blows theirself up out of the basic human evils of lust and greed. Suicide is contrary to all that the human mind wills on the body, but somehow, religious fundamentalism still manages to corrupt a soul to its core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Dravis Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Religion has nothing, really, to do with people killing themselves or others. It's just a cause in a long list of causes that people believe in. Some believe in something enough to die for it. Troops fight and (knowing full well it could happen) die for their country, clearly against the basic human will to survive. There is no heaven awaiting the patriotic athiest-soldier. Why did he sign up, then? He had a cause to believe in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Religion has nothing, really, to do with people killing themselves or others. It's just a cause in a long list of causes that people believe in. Some believe in something enough to die for it. Troops fight and (knowing full well it could happen) die for their country, clearly against the basic human will to survive. There is no heaven awaiting the patriotic athiest-soldier. Why did he sign up, then? He had a cause to believe in... To be fair, when a soldier signs up for duty, there is no intention for them to die in combat. Same for being a cop. Being a suicide bomber means that your duty IS to die. Part of a soldier's duty is to live to fight another day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Dravis Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 They are willing to die, however. Sometimes the soldiers are the suicide bombers, because they cannot fight effectively any other way. They still sign up. The Japanese in WW2 used kamikaze planes. Their country, their pride, their patriotism, their cause was more important to them than living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 They are willing to die, however. Sometimes the soldiers are the suicide bombers, because they cannot fight effectively any other way. They still sign up. The Japanese in WW2 used kamikaze planes. Their country, their pride, their patriotism, their cause was more important to them than living. Well, I'd be willing to die for a lot of things. Doesn't mean that I'm going to go into Iran and blow myself up in a crowded market in the name of freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 And there's a large part of the diffirence, you have a brain. No, that's not quite fair. You know better than to commit such an act because you, as well as perhaps 99% percent of the world know better because the faith you follow, or the decision to not follow in any faith, is not one that preaches these things. It is the Al Qaeda taught Islam, the homophobe taught Christianity, these whip up impressionable believers into such a frenzy that they would be willing to commit these acts. Just on that, you might be thinking that they should know better. Well especially in places such as the Middle East, Africa, where people do not have access to the viewpoints and things such as the Internet and information the way we do, they do not gain an understanding of right and wrong the way you and I probably do. Especially if others around them have been raised to hate Israel for example, or see the West as the evil empire that must be destroyed. And people such as Al Qaeda who want to convert people to terrorism can very easily, and do, preach their message of hatred and get their chosen targets to believe it. Edit: On soldiers, they are prepared for death. Not willing to die, of course not, but prepared nonetheless. Police officers much less so, but certainly they must be prepared for a situation where they, using good judgement, would have to exercise lethal force. Otherwise they are no good to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windu Chi Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 No, that's not quite fair. You know better than to commit such an act because you, as well as perhaps 99% percent of the world know better because the faith you follow, or the decision to not follow in any faith, is not one that preaches these things. It is the Al Qaeda taught Islam, the homophobe taught Christianity, these whip up impressionable believers into such a frenzy that they would be willing to commit these acts. Just on that, you might be thinking that they should know better. Well especially in places such as the Middle East, Africa, where people do not have access to the viewpoints and things such as the Internet and information the way we do, they do not gain an understanding of right and wrong the way you and I probably do. Especially if others around them have been raised to hate Israel for example, or see the West as the evil empire that must be destroyed. And people such as Al Qaeda who want to convert people to terrorism can very easily, and do, preach their message of hatred and get their chosen targets to believe it. Edit: On soldiers, they are prepared for death. Not willing to die, of course not, but prepared nonetheless. Police officers much less so, but certainly they must be prepared for a situation where they, using good judgement, would have to exercise lethal force. Otherwise they are no good to anyone. The war on terrisom is another example of the Earth being better off without religion. The world won't be wasting it's resouces on terrorism if religions die out centuries ago. Al Qaeda fight's this war because as they says the Christian crusades. So deductive logic would dictate if crusades never happen centuries ago we won't be dealing with Al Qaeda or possibly the rest of world terrisom today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 I think you're putting too much consideration on religion being the cause of terrorism. If it wasn't that it would be to destroy America, if not that then their reasons would be foreigners on their land, or something political. If it's not any of those things terrorists would come up with some other excuse. When Osama Bin Laden rallied the Islamic world against the west he cited American military bases on Muslim soil as cause for Jihad. This, religion, whatever reason terrorists give for their acts is really an excuse for their actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windu Chi Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 I think you're putting too much consideration on religion being the cause of terrorism. If it wasn't that it would be to destroy America, if not that then their reasons would be foreigners on their land, or something political. If it's not any of those things terrorists would come up with some other excuse. When Osama Bin Laden rallied the Islamic world against the west he cited American military bases on Muslim soil as cause for Jihad. This, religion, whatever reason terrorists give for their acts is really an excuse for their actions. I don't know where get your info from but about every time Al Qaeda say kill americans they called americans crusaders along with other words like infidels and their zionists alies. As I have said, religion, religion, RELIGION. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Osama Bin Laden's words were quoted by the US military, I could find the exact source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windu Chi Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Osama Bin Laden's words were quoted by the US military, I could find the exact source. You mean the Bush military source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 No, I mean JAG. If I were to find audio or video of the quote from Osama Bin Laden himself, would that make you happy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windu Chi Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 No, I mean JAG. If I were to find audio or video of the quote from Osama Bin Laden himself, would that make you happy? Yeah if, a audio or video of the quote from Osama Bin Laden and the rest of the Islamists terrorists and with those pices of evidence you will probably satisfy my curiosity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Windu Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 but somehow, religious fundamentalism still manages to corrupt a soul to its core. Don't give me that; there's a difference between faith and religion. Doesn't mean that I'm going to go into Iran and blow myself up in a crowded market in the name of freedom. Maybe YOU wouldn't, but there's plenty of people who'd blow themselves up city blocks for their country/state/girlfriend at a whim. It's a lot more than just religion; these people are often glorified. Like I said, there are idiots everywhere. Some idiots choose to do things based on their beliefs, others don't. I might not believe in abortion, but I won't bomb an abortion clinic. It's a choice that *I* make, not religion. "The problem, as you so adequately put, is choice." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windu Chi Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Religion isn't evil. I can not say one thing done by man that is a work of pure evil rather than a whole lot fear, misunderstanding, hate and ignorance. Religion wasn't made out of evil, altough there was a whole lot of ignorant dumb stuff involved. It is made out stupidity, corruption and igorance of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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