The Obscure References Thread - SPOILERS FOR THE WHOLE GAME

[Darth InSidious]

Herein do post ye the least obvious references in KotOR...

 

For example, on a recent playthrough, when getting to the bit with Bolook, I noticed that the first two dialogue options are "who are you?" and "what do you want?". Which got me thinking...these are the two questions of the Vorlons and the Shadows in Babylon 5, respectively.

 

It is a Vorlon Inquisitor who asks 'who are you?', and a Shadow operative who asks 'what do you want?'. Perhaps the Bioware people were hinting that the Jedi and Vorlons and Sith and Shadows were roughly equivalent?

[RedHawke]

Nope, the Vorlons and Shadows of Babylon 5 have no relation to the Jedi and the Sith of Star Wars. (Other than the fact that a Jedi tooling around in a Vorlon Cruiser or a White Star, and a Sith Lord with a Shadow Ship woud own! I even made a Star Wars D6 RPG campaign based on this concept.)

 

• The Jedi are servants of good and the will of the Force. They are supposed to be the pinnacle of rightousness and above the petty 'temptations' of others. The Jedi are symbols of good.
   
   
  
• The Sith are servants of evil and corruptors of the Force. The Sith even blow up planets and destroy life on a massive scale to achieve their goals. The Sith are symbols of evil.
   
   
  
• The Vorlons are followers of the philosophy of Cultural Advancement through Order and are neither good nor evil, but it should be noted that the Vorlons were the ones who manipulated the 'younger races' genetically and were the first to outright destroy planets to achieve their goals. The Vorlons are symbols of order.
   
   
  
• The Shadows are followers of the philosophy of Cultural Advancement through the application of Chaos and are also neither good nor evil (Despite Vorlon propoganda stating otherwise touted by the Minbari), also to be noted the Shadows didn't resort to 'cheating' by genetically manipulating the 'younger races' and they only began using their Death Cloud Planet Killers after the Vorlons started blowing up planets with theirs. The Shadows are symbols of chaos.
  

The two B5 questions of "Who are you?" (Order) and "What do you want?" (Chaos) both basically answer the same thing as you do define what you want if you state who you are, and you define who you are by stating what you would want.

 

So in closing the Jedi/Sith dichotomy is one of pure good vs. evil, while the Vorlon/Shadow dichotomy is one of pure order vs. chaos. As it was clearly seen in the B5 series neither the Vorlons nor the Shadows were pinnacles of good, nor were they outright evil... well, until the Vorlons started using torture and later blowing up planets that is.

[Rabish Bini]

I don't get a thing you just said RH. I can't come up with any 'obscure' references

[RedHawke]

I don't get a thing you just said RH.

You need to watch Babylon 5 then.

[Sabretooth]

Well, not particularly a reference, but I always did found the similarities between Deus Ex: Invisible War and KotOR are little uncanny.

 

In IW, Seattle is divided into two parts - Upper Seattle and Lower Seattle, the upper being the more prosperous one. The Taris situation seems to reflect on this, but both games came out at around the same time...

 

Then there's that Nookie-Wookiee reference we all know...

[MetalMark]

But KOTOR wasn't the first appearance of Taris in books and comics it was allreadt stated to be like this.

[Totenkopf]

@RH--welll....with you up to the bit about evil. The Shadows were basically considered evil, their own PR aside, by the main players. They did have a very Sith philosophy of social darwinism (writ large of course). The Vorlon were considered a bit inscrutable and cryptic, but otherwise as the cavalry. That perception began to change somewhat after Kosh's demise and the stepping up of the war between the two parties. Then it seemed that the Vorlons decided that unless you were perfectly in alignment (keyword being perfectly) w/their goals, you must be destroyed and too bad for anyone nearby. Sort of like a driveby (or perhaps a fullscale war in general, which it actually had become). At that point it arguably became clear that both sides were tainted by evil, their own desires becoming more paramount than their original decision to help the younger races, who at that point had become little more than innocent bystanders in their conflict.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

An HK-47 line closely resembles an old cath-phrase made famous by Dr. McCoy on Star Trek The Original Series. The line is (i can't remember when he says it though), "Dammit, Master, I'm and assassin droid, not a dictionary!"

[RedHawke]

@RH--welll....with you up to the bit about evil. The Shadows were basically considered evil, their own PR aside, by the main players. They did have a very Sith philosophy of social darwinism (writ large of course). The Vorlon were considered a bit inscrutable and cryptic, but otherwise as the cavalry. That perception began to change somewhat after Kosh's demise and the stepping up of the war between the two parties. Then it seemed that the Vorlons decided that unless you were perfectly in alignment (keyword being perfectly) w/their goals, you must be destroyed and too bad for anyone nearby. Sort of like a driveby (or perhaps a fullscale war in general, which it actually had become). At that point it arguably became clear that both sides were tainted by evil, their own desires becoming more paramount than their original decision to help the younger races, who at that point had become little more than innocent bystanders in their conflict.

The story of Babylon 5 was not a good and evil story, it was a story about personal choices and the price these choices made you pay. All of the Ancients were neither good nor evil, black nor white... gray was the theme of the B5 universe, it was a universe of gray.

 

Star Wars is a pure tale of good vs. evil... black and white, there is no grey area in Star Wars.

 

The Shadows and the Sith are philosophical opposites in actuality... The same could be said of the Vorlons and the Jedi.

[Darth InSidious]

RH: I take you point, I was just trying to draw some significance from the two options

 

And at the beginning of the series it is clear that going with the Shadows = evil, going with the Vorlons/Minbari = good, for given values of both, IMO...

[Sabretooth]

But KOTOR wasn't the first appearance of Taris in books and comics it was allreadt stated to be like this.

 

Really? Where was this? I always thought Taris was KotOR-exclusive, like Peragus and Malachor.

[Totenkopf]

The story of Babylon 5 was not a good and evil story, it was a story about personal choices and the price these choices made you pay. All of the Ancients were neither good nor evil, black nor white... gray was the theme of the B5 universe, it was a universe of gray.

 

Star Wars is a pure tale of good vs. evil... black and white, there is no grey area in Star Wars.

 

The Shadows and the Sith are philosophical opposites in actuality... The same could be said of the Vorlons and the Jedi.

 

 

Actually, I wasn't trying to make a perfect analogy between the two, but rather was dealing w/perception. Whether the B5 universe was actually gray is somewhat debatable (mind you, I'm not talking about JMS's original vision here, haven't read enough there to know), but you are quite correct in stating a lot of the show was based on the consequences of the decision making process of the main characters. Whether Sheridan's forcing the confrontation that was brewing before the Vorlons were ready, Londo's prickly embacing of the Shadows to advance arguably imperialist aspirations, Delenn's choice to become a hybrid (already done, but unknown, by Sinclair) to bring humans and minbari closer, etc....

 

Frankly, both sides were very manipulative. The Vorlon's resorted to genetics and the God impulse to exercise their influence and the Shadow's focused on the lesser races baser emotions to achieve their end. It only came to a head when one side (the Shadows) seemed to be winning. Almost makes you wonder how many times this scenario was supposed to have played itself out (at least once prior that's known for certain).

 

Not so sure either about lack of similarity between Sith and Shadows here either. While the Sith probably did seek some kind of order or control, it only lasted as long as one leader was essentially supreme, when that leader was defeated, all fell into internicine warfare and chaotic collapse. Afterall, beating your former master in a moment of weakness doesn't mean you're truly fit to actually rule anything. It was basically cyclic. They also, like the Shadows, focused on the darwinian concept of culling the weak from the herd. Survival of the fittest. Whatever else their differences, they were very similiar in these respects.

 

Question for you. Did you take to the show from the beginning or did it grow on you? I originally made fun of my brother for following it, but it ended up growing on me. Especially Londo and Garibaldi. It was ultimately a much better show than any of the ST spinoffs.

[SykoRevan]

here's a few obscure references:

 

When Bao-Dur and Mandalore are talking, Mandalore says "people die in war." That was also a line you could have used in KOTOR 1 when trying to persuade Jagi not to fight Canderous.

 

Kreia refers to Jango fett's death when telling the future of the Mandalorians, when she says "the shell of a man, all too easily slain by a Jedi." She also refers to the rise of the Empire when saying "Do not doubt that a Galaxy can be conquered with words, a Republic overthrown, and an Empire made."

 

Also when you show the Force to Mira, when she thanks you, you can repeat a line Obi Wan gave to Luke by saying "You've taken your first step into a larger world."

 

There are more, but I don't feel like typing them all.

[RedHawke]

Question for you. Did you take to the show from the beginning or did it grow on you? I originally made fun of my brother for following it, but it ended up growing on me. Especially Londo and Garibaldi. It was ultimately a much better show than any of the ST spinoffs.

I started about the 2nd or 3rd episode in to the first season, I made fun of the pilot myself being a little bit prejudiced because of Star Wars. But once I sat down and started watching it I knew this was something new. My favorite character interactions were actually Londo and G'kar.

[Totenkopf]

Didn't like G'kar as much at first, but his character arc made him much more interesting over the course of the series.

[tbl]

HK47 takes some inspiration from Bender (Futurama).

[dewayne26]

i noyiced in B5 and kotor that loyalty is a issue too. i cann't really explain it. but Sherdian had loyalty of almost everyone in the show. both Revan and the exile party where soo what loyal to them in the end if you think bout it.

[Totenkopf]

If you mean blindly loyal to the bitter end, then KOTOR certainly doesn't have that. Going DS causes Jolee, Juhani, Carth and Mission to defect. Zaalbar may have to be killed as well. But even in B5, Garibaldi turns on Sheridan for a time. Also, Delenn's marriage to Sheridan eventually causes Lennier to briefly turn on him as well. Zack also has to ultimately pick sides, not exactly a sign of unswerving loyalty.

[RedHawke]

Zack also has to ultimately pick sides, not exactly a sign of unswerving loyalty.

Everyone knows Zack only joined Nightwatch for those 50 extra credits a week.

 

But yes loyalty of freinds plays a crutial part in both B5 and Star Wars, and just about every other sci-fi as well, since it is part of the human condition it is a common thread woven within the various series/stories.

[dewayne26]

no i'm not talking bout blind loyalty. i think blind loyalty isn't in eiither one kotor or B5. i think icanova cann't spell her name was only one truly loyal to sherdian. and the kotor series yet to figure out whoi has blind loyalty to Revan. but exile one name po in my mind Bao-Dur

 

Everyone knows Zack only joined Nightwatch for those 50 extra credits a week.

 

But yes loyalty of freinds plays a crutial part in both B5 and Star Wars, and just about every other sci-fi as well, since it is part of the human condition it is a common thread woven within the various series/stories.

 

"The loyalty of men is hard earn" General Bates Taps

 

"loyalty is a funny thing" Gregory Peck in Twelve o'clock high

[Totenkopf]

Everyone knows Zack only joined Nightwatch for those 50 extra credits a week.

 

But yes loyalty of freinds plays a crutial part in both B5 and Star Wars, and just about every other sci-fi as well, since it is part of the human condition it is a common thread woven within the various series/stories.

 

 

True enough, but it did cause problems for him b/c he was constantly in a position of having to possibly betray his compatriots and question his own loyalty, both to the government and his friends. Sometimes you just shouldn't take a "freebie", at least w/o looking for the catch.

[RedHawke]

True enough, but it did cause problems for him b/c he was constantly in a position of having to possibly betray his compatriots and question his own loyalty, both to the government and his friends. Sometimes you just shouldn't take a "freebie", at least w/o looking for the catch.

You did take note of the smily at the end of that statement?

 

But you are correct, again this was all in line with JMS' whole 'choices and consequences' theme that B5 was following. Zack had to face the consequences of his choices but he was one of the few in the series who could make another choice to correct it.

[Totenkopf]

I did, I just was too lazy to put one in myself. Didn't mean to rattle your cage there, big guy.

 

Actually, though, a number of the major characters got chances to turn around their decisions. Garibaldi reddemed himself, G'kar changed his stripes and even Londo briefly attempted to mend his ways. Londo ultimately failed, or perhaps took one for his team and redeemed himself in the end by getting drunk and allowing G'kar to end his existence. Even Lennier sort of failed, driving himself into a self imposed exile. Ahhh, yes, plot turns. What story wouldn't suffer w/o them....