The True Sith Does Not Exist...

[adamqd]

^^^

Note the Smilie! I wasn't dismissing anything, I'd just not come across that theory before tsl, and as an avid star wars Fan, it takes more than your word to make me believe something as gospel :)

[Jediphile]

The whole "True Sith" as a race of powerful universal force users actually pre-dates this phenomina called the "Expanded Universe". They have been the subjects of conversations at RPG, Comic, and Sci-fi conventions for quite a while now... just a little FYI.

 

Yes, but that's still just conjecture, whereas the Sith Empire as described in the KotOR comic books are canon.

 

Now, I know a lot of people dismiss it anyway and talk about A-canon, B-canon and what not, but dismissing Sadow and his invasion of the Republic is difficult in any event, seeing as how it's confirmed by Episode III in the sense that it's depicted in a frieze kept in Chancellor Palpatine's chambers.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Palp-frieze1.JPG

[SilentScope001]

anyhow, if the True Sith are anything like the True Jedi in the TSL sense of the word, I hope they don't exist... I mean if that group of half wits, outcasts and force wounds are the genesis of the Jedi we know in later EU and film, what excuse for Darksiders will the True Sith be?

 

Hey, the Sith need a good shaming to silence them.

[Ztalker]

Great theory, Jediphile. Seems more plausible then anything else out there. It even makes more sense knowing Darth Bane used Revan's holocron to become totally corrupted. It shows Holocron CAN be the source of a faction and/or event (Atris' fall proofs this too).

 

Anyways...to get to the bottom of this...

If there are "True Sith" there must be "False Sith" as well, by definition.

 

Imo, the False Sith are the ones from the K1 game. Adults trained to do some force tricks, given a saber on their birthday etc. Just like the Sith Assassin from K2. They are unable to...'corrupt' completely.

I think the True Sith are the ones like Sion. Who were dark and tainted from the beginning. Kreia was a Jedi, and Nihilus is the dark half of the Exile so they don't count.

Maybe the builders of the Malachor 5 Academy are the ones? Just a select group of individuals bursting with Force energy and holocrons full of knowledge?

[SilentScope001]

Great theory, Jediphile.

 

Um, if you are talking about holocorns being evil, then that was my idea.

 

If you are talking about the True Sith being remenants of an old Sith Empire led by Luddo Kressh, that's Jediphile's theory, and if the Holocron theory is proven wrong, then it is likely Jediphile's theory is correct.

 

Jediphile's theory and my theory are in conflict though.

[Ztalker]

Sorry, Scope. I couldn't be bothered to read all of the posts in here. I'll do so next time...

 

It was the holocron theory I'm interested in though. It seems to blend nicely with Kreia's statement that the Sith are a 'believe' and not a faction.

[Hipmonlee]

If you are talking about the True Sith being remenants of an old Sith Empire led by Luddo Kressh, that's Jediphile's theory

 

I recall reading at the Obsidian's forums a Q+A thread in which it was mentioned by the staff that the intention was to create a totally different Sith Order from the Marka Ragnos one.

[Jediphile]

I recall reading at the Obsidian's forums a Q+A thread in which it was mentioned by the staff that the intention was to create a totally different Sith Order from the Marka Ragnos one.

 

The problem with that intention is that both Kreia and Sion actually mention the old Sith Empire and how Malachor and Korriban both belonged to it. We know little about Malachor, but Korriban was central to the Sith Empire ruled by Ragnos, Sadow, and Kressh, and which also just happens to be the only Sith Empire ever established...

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Empire

[SilentScope001]

Jediphile, remember that whole "Ludo Kressh" theory?

 

Ludo's followers are far more different than Marka Rangos' followers. And after 6000 years of being stuck in the Unknown Regions, they may have morphed into a far more different Sith Order than what Ludo's fleets thought it would be. It is possible for there to be a totally new Sith Order that arisen from the ashes of the old Sith Order.

[Hipmonlee]

The problem with that intention is that both Kreia and Sion actually mention the old Sith Empire and how Malachor and Korriban both belonged to it. We know little about Malachor, but Korriban was central to the Sith Empire ruled by Ragnos, Sadow, and Kressh, and which also just happens to be the only Sith Empire ever established...

 

When did they mention that those planets belonged to the true Sith empire? As far as i recall, they only said they were connected.

 

Still, the Unknown regions are far from the location of the Old Sith Empire. It just doesn't add up that its descendants would suddenly cross half galaxy to reestablish.

[Jediphile]

Jediphile, remember that whole "Ludo Kressh" theory?

 

Ludo's followers are far more different than Marka Rangos' followers. And after 6000 years of being stuck in the Unknown Regions, they may have morphed into a far more different Sith Order than what Ludo's fleets thought it would be. It is possible for there to be a totally new Sith Order that arisen from the ashes of the old Sith Order.

 

????

 

Where do you get that from?

 

Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow fought for the title of dark lord upon the death of Marka Ragnos. Their fight eventually led to the Great Hyperspace War a little over a milliennium before the KotOR games. Ragnos, Sadow and Kressh were all contemporaries, and they all lived less than 2000 years after the dark jedi were exiled from the Republic and came to Korriban, where they enslaved the Sith species and founded the Sith Empire. There are no 6000 years in question here.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Empire

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline#The_Old_Republic_era

 

When did they mention that those planets belonged to the true Sith empire? As far as i recall, they only said they were connected.

 

Still, the Unknown regions are far from the location of the Old Sith Empire. It just doesn't add up that its descendants would suddenly cross half galaxy to reestablish.

 

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

 

Sion: "It is a place where the Sith teachings run strong... it is the threshold of the borders of an ancient empire. Kreia says it was a place of reflection for the ancient Sith... a gateway to their lands. It drew Lord Revan... and it calls to her as well.She said that the teachings here will lead one to the Sith... the true Sith... and all their shadowed worlds. This place led Revan to the graveyards of Korriban... and beyond."

[Hipmonlee]

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

 

Sion: "It is a place where the Sith teachings run strong... it is the threshold of the borders of an ancient empire. Kreia says it was a place of reflection for the ancient Sith... a gateway to their lands. It drew Lord Revan... and it calls to her as well.She said that the teachings here will lead one to the Sith... the true Sith... and all their shadowed worlds. This place led Revan to the graveyards of Korriban... and beyond."

 

Ah, I see. Thank you for the quotes.

 

Still, there is ambiguity, imo. Kreia's quote only suggests that Revan went to the Unknown Regions. As far as I know, the Old Sith Empire was nowhere near that location. As for Sion, he's even more evasive. He only speaks about 'an' ancient Empire, not 'the' Empire.

[adamqd]

Star Wars Lore has it that the Sith Empire formed by the Exiled Dark Jedi and the Sith Race as mentioned by myself Jediphile and others is the first "Sith Empire" in the force using Dark lords of the Sith sense, so I would be lead to believe any "Empire" with any regards to the Sith to be this one. I happen to like the origins of the Sith as depicted in the TOTJ comics and feel no need to further Ret-con these classic stories.... So if the "True Sith" are anything other than Remnants of Marka Ragnos' (among Others) Empire, I'd Rather they didn't exist

[Jediphile]

Still, there is ambiguity, imo. Kreia's quote only suggests that Revan went to the Unknown Regions. As far as I know, the Old Sith Empire was nowhere near that location. As for Sion, he's even more evasive. He only speaks about 'an' ancient Empire, not 'the' Empire.

 

Take a closer look at Kreia's quote. She says the exile must go where Revan did - into the unknown regions to fight the true Sith. Then she immediately mentions the Sith Empire. What's the point of that?

 

Let's look at the full quote:

 

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

 

1. The true Sith wait in the unknown regions.

2. Revan went there to fight them.

3. Revan came to Malachor because it - like Korriban - lies on the fringes of the old Sith Empire.

4. The true Sith are waiting in the ancient Sith Empire.

 

Conclusion: Ancient Sith Empire is in the unknown regions.

 

And just to back it up, Kreia continues with this:

 

Kreia: "Have we? You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines spawned by technology that Revan led into battle were the Sith? You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere.And Revan knew the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us, beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his own way.He left the Ebon Hawk and its machines behind, for he knew he would not need them."

 

Whatever the devs may have intended at whatever point, I find it very hard indeed to escape the conclusion that the true Sith are the descendents of the fallen Sith Empire. The devs may have intended something else at one point, but this is what is actually in the game. It was also intended at one stage that Visas should be evil and only available to evil characters, and that Nihilus' mask should be made from Revan's skull. I don't think we're going to argue those are true just because they were under consideration at one point.

 

Again, we have only one established Sith Empire in Star Wars lore at this point in time: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Empire

[Master Shake]

Off Topic:if nihilus' mask was considered to be revan's skull does that mean the developers intended to kill off Revan?

 

On Topic:I agree with silentscope's theory because when kreia says "And he has gone to fight it, in his own way." I dont she meant fight in his own way as physically fighting but more like fighting the beleif of the true sith

[Jediphile]

Off Topic:if nihilus' mask was considered to be revan's skull does that mean the developers intended to kill off Revan?

 

It means that they did at one point, but since they cut that from the game, it seems fairly obvious that they either changed their minds or else LA changed it for them

 

On Topic:I agree with silentscope's theory because when kreia says "And he has gone to fight it, in his own way." I dont she meant fight in his own way as physically fighting but more like fighting the beleif of the true sith

 

While I do not agree with SilentScope's theory about the true Sith, I think I should repeat that my skepticism in no way precludes the theory from being possible. SilentScope could certainly be correct. The theory is just a little too much "Sky Captain" for me, and I also doubt such a plot would be written into the game since it would leave few or no true enemies to fight against. But yes, it's possible, which would seem to me to result in a plot similar to that of Jedi Academy.

[SilentScope001]

Where do you get that from?

 

From one tiny little comment that the developer did not intend for the Sith Order of Marka Rangos to be the same as the "True Sith" Order. I was defending your theory here, stating that since there is a new leader of the Sith Order, Ludo Kressh, it is therefore different from Marka Rangos...and that therefore, both the developer's comments and your comments are correct.

 

The 4000 year figure was a mistake, I apologize. But a lot could have happened within 1000 years after the Great Hyperspace War. The Sith Order may have changed a lot hiding in the Unknown Regions. It may be VERY different from the Sith Order that we usually seen, just because of them hiding from the public and being far away from galactic influence of the Jedi.

[Rev7]

Off Topic:if nihilus' mask was considered to be revan's skull does that mean the developers intended to kill off Revan?

 

Where does it say that???

[RedHawke]

Yes, but that's still just conjecture,

What the actual Sith Race was is all conjecture, even if it is stated in KotOR or Tales of the Jedi that the Sith Race was something or another does not actually make it so... some parts of history as we have come to know is basically 'pop' culture, the universe of Star Wars is no different (ret-con anyone?), so the True Sith Race can indeed be revealed as some ancient all-powerful beings. (I personally hope not, but it is possible, and the idea is deeply rooted in the fan-base from waaaaay back.)

[Jediphile]

From one tiny little comment that the developer did not intend for the Sith Order of Marka Rangos to be the same as the "True Sith" Order. I was defending your theory here, stating that since there is a new leader of the Sith Order, Ludo Kressh, it is therefore different from Marka Rangos...and that therefore, both the developer's comments and your comments are correct.

 

Okay, but even if that were so, Ludo Kressh would not have been involved, since he became dark lord only a few years after Ragnos' death and was then shortly after killed in the final battle with Naga Sadow. The KotOR games are set more than millennium after Ludo Kressh's death at the end of the Great Hyperspace War, when the Sith Empire fell.

 

But I would agree that since we know very little about the true Sith, we have no way of knowing what traditions they have or what structure they follow in their society. That's why I call them the descendents of the Sith Empire, not the Sith Empire itself.

 

I'd confess that I'd like them to be close to that. A society that dreams of their once great heritage during the golden age of the Sith. For example, I'd like them to be ruled by the same structure as before - by a dark lord who is adviced by a sith council consisting of ten sith lords. To have eleven powerful sith lords that must all be defeated to end the threat of the true Sith... That sounds pretty good to me. But granted, that's pure conjecture and personal taste.

 

The 4000 year figure was a mistake, I apologize. But a lot could have happened within 1000 years after the Great Hyperspace War. The Sith Order may have changed a lot hiding in the Unknown Regions. It may be VERY different from the Sith Order that we usually seen, just because of them hiding from the public and being far away from galactic influence of the Jedi.

 

Sure. As you say, a lot can happen in a 1000 years.

 

Off Topic:if nihilus' mask was considered to be revan's skull does that mean the developers intended to kill off Revan?

 

Where does it say that???

 

For one thing, it's mentioned in wookieepedia's description of Nihilus in the section "Behind the scenes", third paragraph from the end before the next section, which lists Nihilus' appearances: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nihilus

 

The initial plot written by Obsidian Entertainment stated that his mask was made out of Revan's skull, but the developers scrapped the idea to leave the fate of the character open.

 

What the actual Sith Race was is all conjecture, even if it is stated in KotOR or Tales of the Jedi that the Sith Race was something or another does not actually make it so... some parts of history as we have come to know is basically 'pop' culture, the universe of Star Wars is no different (ret-con anyone?), so the True Sith Race can indeed be revealed as some ancient all-powerful beings. (I personally hope not, but it is possible, and the idea is deeply rooted in the fan-base from waaaaay back.)

 

No. Quite simply, no. Both the KotOR games and the Tales of the Jedi comic books are all canon. Sure, lots of fans don't consider them canon, but the fact is that Lucasarts do. Granted, they could retcon the whole thing, but I don't consider it valid to say that as a way to infer that the origin of the Sith species or the formation of the Sith Empire is any less canon than, say, Leia being Luke's sister, since that is also possible to retcon - maybe that wasn't the Leia from the original movie that we saw being born in Episode III. You may consider that a silly argument, but to me it's just as relevant to argue as it is to suggest that the established history is subject to change through retcon. It is, of course, but then so is Leia being Luke's sister. We could then argue which is more likely to be changed, but that seems like an incredible moot discussion to me.

 

So if you suggest that the Sith species is just conjecture, then the same argument is possible to make about any and all bits of Star Wars history that whomever may not like so much. To me such a argument would be an exercise in futility. I don't understand why you make that statement at all.

[Rev7]

"The initial plot written by Obsidian Entertainment stated that his mask was made out of Revan's skull, but the developers scrapped the idea to leave the fate of the character open." -http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nihilus

 

 

It is still not know if that happened or not.

[Jediphile]

"The initial plot written by Obsidian Entertainment stated that his mask was made out of Revan's skull, but the developers scrapped the idea to leave the fate of the character open." -http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nihilus

 

 

It is still not know if that happened or not.

 

Actually, it is known that it did NOT happen, since it was cut from the game and Revan is revealed to still be alive - at least according to Kreia's knowledge. And since Kreia trained Nihilus, it seems reasonable to assume that she would have known.

 

The idea was considered at one point, but dropped like many ideas on the floor of the proverbial cutting room. Same as Visas being evil and only a companion to an evil exile or Hanharr being able to become a jedi. Those were all under consideration, but were dropped for various reasons and so are not canon and did not happen (though I hear Team Exile is restoring the option of turning Hanharr into a jedi in their mod, which was apparently dropped only because Lucas himself nixed the idea).

[Rev7]

The idea was considered at one point, but dropped like many ideas on the floor of the proverbial cutting room. Same as Visas being evil and only a companion to an evil exile or Hanharr being able to become a jedi. Those were all under consideration, but were dropped for various reasons and so are not canon and did not happen (though I hear Team Exile is restoring the option of turning Hanharr into a jedi in their mod, which was apparently dropped only because Lucas himself nixed the idea).

Do you mean Team Gizga??? I personally think it is kinda crazy that they are making Hanharr a Jedi (or more likely a Sith). Hanharr with a lightsaber is something that I cannot imagine.

[Jediphile]

Do you mean Team Gizga???

 

No, Team Gizka is dedicated to restoring only what was left out due to the deadline. Making Hanharr a jedi is not one of those.

 

Team Exile, however, has announced their mod as a sort of add-on to TSLRP, where they are restoring stuff that Team Gizka will not, which includes the option to make Hanharr a jedi, from what I know.

 

I personally think it is kinda crazy that they are making Hanharr a Jedi (or more likely a Sith). Hanharr with a lightsaber is something that I cannot imagine.

 

Well, it's just an option, and only if you play DS. And while Lucas seems to have nixed the idea for the same reason, wookiee jedi are already established in Star Wars lore.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tyvokka

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lowbacca

[adamqd]

although Kreia does say that Wookiee's cannot feel the Force at this point in time... She could be mistaken, or lying of course, and obviously the aforementioned furballs can use the force.