Dialogue question

[Jediphile]

I say again... You all can't have it both ways, you can't lament the cut content of TSL but dismiss the cut content of KotOR as unimportant.

 

Sorry but cut content is cut content.

 

Cut content is cut content, but the bits that were supposed to be downloadable for KotOR are not "cut" because they were always meant to entirely optional extras not to be included in the original game.

 

Indeed, they were never written in the first place and never went beyond the planning stages, which means they could never have been central to the plot, unless the downloads were going to rewrite the plot, which is a slippery slope, since it brings about the question of who is actually playing what game...

 

Now, we have discussed this before, but whenever you say stuff like "you can't have it both ways", you can (and should) expect me or someone equally annoying questioning whether it really is the same thing for KotOR as it is for TSL.

 

For TSL, I was actually relieved to hear that stuff was cut, because it explained so much about why the plot was so fragmented and strained.

 

When I heard KotOR had cut stuff, it was more along the lines of "really? What did they cut? I certainly didn't notice that impacting the plot or the game..."

 

Same thing? No.

 

Now, you have a right to your opinion, but "you can't have it both ways" does not settle the matter. Those of us who may disagree with you have a right to our opinions too. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways either

[SilentScope001]

I say again... You all can't have it both ways, you can't lament the cut content of TSL but dismiss the cut content of KotOR as unimportant.

 

Sorry but cut content is cut content.

 

Then let's be consitent.

 

Someone should form the "KOTOR Restoration Project"! Without being able to buy the armor from the Sith troopers, we would be unable to see the high corruption within the Sith ranks of Malak, showing the decline of Sith morals after Revan's "death". This important detail explains why the Sith are entering a dark age under Darth Malak and why it is important for Revan to reclaim the throne and stop this illegal buying of Sith armor!

 

You mean we don't need to know that tiny detail? Of course we do. Without it, the story becomes hard to understand and has lots of plotholes! The KOTOR Restoration Project must be done!

[Darth InSidious]

@Totenkopf: Sorry, missed your question...

 

There was originally an entire Rakatan Temple on Tatooine, complete with Star Map at the bottom of a Sarlacc Pit.

[RedHawke]

Cut content is cut content, but the bits that were supposed to be downloadable for KotOR are not "cut" because they were always meant to entirely optional extras not to be included in the original game.

 

Indeed, they were never written in the first place and never went beyond the planning stages, which means they could never have been central to the plot, unless the downloads were going to rewrite the plot, which is a slippery slope, since it brings about the question of who is actually playing what game...

 

Now, we have discussed this before, but whenever you say stuff like "you can't have it both ways", you can (and should) expect me or someone equally annoying questioning whether it really is the same thing for KotOR as it is for TSL.

 

For TSL, I was actually relieved to hear that stuff was cut, because it explained so much about why the plot was so fragmented and strained.

 

When I heard KotOR had cut stuff, it was more along the lines of "really? What did they cut? I certainly didn't notice that impacting the plot or the game..."

 

Same thing? No.

Once again, you can't dismiss any K1 content, without allowing the dismissal the TSL content equally, your reasons/opinions do not really matter as the topic was the amounts of content cut not the importance of the cut content.

 

Note I am stating no opinions here, only fair and equal facts of the amounts of cut content from each game. (Which was the issue I posted to the amounts of cut content, not about the 'importance' of said content.)

 

Only you are doing exactly what I was stating by dismissing a bunch of the cut K1 content because of its being "entirely optional extras" as you mistakenly call it. The simple fact is you and the many others who hold to this train of thought have no real idea what they intended with the live planet add ons. So you are basing your 'opinion' on incomplete information.

 

[My Opinion] Looking at the actual game files gave me a different impression of what the Live Planets could have offered, thusly I don't dismiss them as "unimportant" like others seem to do. [/My Opinion]

 

Now I know you are a staunch defender of the 'TSL was incomplete' crowd... I just don't see it that way... never will either.

 

Though I do offer my thanks for proving my point once again. "You all can't have it both ways, you can't lament the cut content of TSL but dismiss the cut content of KotOR as unimportant."

 

You are doing exactly that in your post...

 

@ No Jediphile you aren't "annoying" me, if that was your intention? Actually, it is quite amusing to read your posts.

 

As far as the last bit:

 

Now, you have a right to your opinion, but "you can't have it both ways" does not settle the matter. Those of us who may disagree with you have a right to our opinions too. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways either

I'm only playing devils advocate here... you are offering opinions here not I.

 

Sorry but you all indeed can't have it both ways, you can't casually dismiss any of the K1 content and then lament about the cut TSL content, I don't do this so I don't really have to worry about having anything both ways. You are trying to call me on something I never did here. Sorry.

 

Edit: Emperor Devon posted similarly about the amounts of cut content above yet got no 'heated' response... hmm.

 

Edit 2: Perhaps it is my aftershave? Hmm...

[Jediphile]

Only you are doing exactly what I was stating by dismissing a bunch of the cut K1 content because of its being "entirely optional extras" as you mistakenly call it. The simple fact is you and the many others who hold to this train of thought have no real idea what they intended with the live planet add ons. So you are basing your 'opinion' on incomplete information.

 

If that's true, then you should have a fairly easy time of proving your point by simply enlightening all of us ignorant sods out here as to vastness of our lack of knowledge on subject. Oddly you don't do that, though... I wonder why that is

 

Though I do offer my thanks for proving my point once again. "You all can't have it both ways, you can't lament the cut content of TSL but dismiss the cut content of KotOR as unimportant."

 

You are doing exactly that in your post...

 

Hmm...

 

You are trying to call me on something I never did here. Sorry.[/Quote]

 

Why do I have this odd sense of deja vu now...

 

I'm only playing devils advocate here... you are offering opinions here not I.

 

I do consider it an opinion to say that only the amount of cut content matters, while how it impacts the plot does not. If that is not your opinion, then why do you persist in jumping saying that the cut content in KotOR is just as important as it is in TSL? Should we cut the lightsaber duel between Obi-Wan and Darth Vader and replace it with cut scene of Luke meeting Biggs in "A New Hope" on the basis that "importance" doesn't matter

 

Edit: Emperor Devon posted similarly about the amounts of cut content above yet got no 'heated' response... hmm.[/Quote]

 

Actually, what Emperor Devon said was:

 

It's cut content. KotOR actually has just as much (if not more) than TSL has.

 

That's a statement of facts, and he doesn't even say that KotOR has more than TSL. But the point is that he offers no opinion as to whether cut content is significant to the plot or not. And what heated response do you refer to? I too can play devil's advocate, you know, and I find it interesting how you claim that "importance" is not a factor to you, and yet persist in jumping into the discussion when someone dares to say that the importance of what was cut in TSL was greater than it was in KotOR...

 

If I or someone else here says that there might be just as much cut content in KotOR as in TSL, it has greater significance in TSL, because the cut content hurts the plot, then Emperor Devon does not challenge that perception.

 

You, on the other hand, say it doesn't matter because cut content is cut content, and when I or someone else then disagree and say that what is cut impacts the plot, then you persist and put your foot down with comments like "you can't have it both ways."

 

Like when you say this:

 

Not true, the content cut from KotOR I was equal to, or even larger than TSL. You also can't say anything about the "importance" of said cut content as it can be argued that nothing in the cut content for TSL that was "important" either.

 

It can't be argued if any cut content is more important than other? That's like saying that if we were to cut a scene from "Empire Strikes Back", then it doesn't matter if it's the scene where Luke and Yoda are talking about food or the scene where Vader tells Luke he's his father, because either way, it's a cut scene, and they're all the same. I respectfully disagree with that perception, because one scene is a central point in the plot, while the other is not. Cut content in TSL made most of the Exile's companions disappear into thin air toward the end of the game. That didn't happen in KotOR. Remote is helpless against G0T0, yet in the LS ending, Malachor V is still destroyed without explanation. Nothing like this in KotOR. You spend an entire game building relationships with your companions, some of those even romantic ones, yet none of them have any significance toward the end of the game. That didn't happen in KotOR, either.

 

Now, if your point is that KotOR has as much cut content as TSL, then yes, I know that. I have not said otherwise. Indeed, I have posted links to David Gaider's comments on what was planned for Sleheyron, so you'll excuse me if I do take the liberty of thinking that I've proven that I'm aware there's cut content in KotOR.

 

But as you can see, we can actually say rather a lot about how important what cut content is for which game, because the cut content in KotOR had no signficance to the plot, or at least did not hurt it, as SilentScope001 has already pointed out.

 

Edit 2: Perhaps it is my aftershave? Hmm...

 

No

[RedHawke]

Perhaps you need to go back and look at the context of my responses more closely as I am not saying what you think I am here Jediphile.

 

I do consider it an opinion to say that only the amount of cut content matters, while how it impacts the plot does not.

Consider it however you want, but the fact remains that you can't tell how what was cut was going to "impact the plot". So if you get in a sparring match about what cut content was "more important" in the end you really can't say.

 

When comparing the two games only the amounts matter in the context of which had more things removed.

 

My responses were to someone who was dismissing the content of K1 as unimportant, and to point out the foolishness of arguing which games cut content was more 'important'. Nowhere do I offer an 'opinion' on either ones actual importance only that it shouldn't be discounted, and to say that the cut K1 content was 'unimportant' is folly.

 

then why do you persist in jumping saying that the cut content in KotOR is just as important as it is in TSL?

Because it could easily be... and you can't call me for 'jumping' anything here as you also are doing this here.

 

But the point is that he offers no opinion as to whether cut content is significant to the plot or not.

Sorry, I offered no opinions on this. While I did in the last post offer an opinion, I clearly marked that section as such.

 

I never stated what you think I did, nor did I state an opinion on the importance of the content, only that one can not discout something as unimportant without knowing all that facts (Like you and so many others seem to do in regards to this topic). Also if people insist on doing so then others can easily discount the cut content of TSL using the same flawed logic. That's my point.

 

Edit: I'm glad it isn't my aftershave! Whew!

[Jediphile]

Perhaps you need to go back and look at the context of my responses more closely as I am not saying what you think I am here Jediphile.

 

Ahem...

 

Not true, the content cut from KotOR I was equal to, or even larger than TSL. You also can't say anything about the "importance" of said cut content as it can be argued that nothing in the cut content for TSL that was "important" either.

 

Your words, not mine.

 

Consider it however you want, but the fact remains that you can't tell how what was cut was going to "impact the plot". So if you get in a sparring match about what cut content was "more important" in the end you really can't say.

 

Why not? And btw, by insisting that it's just as valid for KotOR as for TSL, aren't you doing the exact same thing yourself?

 

Note that I'm not arguing which game has more cut content. You, however, insist that ANY argument that the cut content hurt TSL more than KotOR does not apply. How can you argue that, if you don't believe anything can be said about it? Basically you object, when someone suggests that TSL was hurt by the cut content, insisting that the same is just as true for KotOR. Yet when someone calls you on it, you deny that you made any such claim... It's really confusing. To use your own terms, you really can't have it both ways.

 

Because it could easily be... and you can't call me for 'jumping' anything here as you also are doing this here.

 

Except, unlike you, I have not denied that. I have said that I think at least some of the cut content in TSL hurt the plot by its absense. I have not denied saying so. You object to that, but when I argue it, you then dismiss the discussion. If that is the case, then why are you objecting?

 

Sorry, I offered no opinions on this. While I did in the last post offer an opinion, I clearly marked that section as such.

 

Uh... So you didn't offer an opinion, except when you did?!?

 

Well, duh...

 

I never stated what you think I did, nor did I state an opinion on the importance of the content, only that one can not discout something as unimportant without knowing all that facts (Like you and so many others seem to do in regards to this topic). Also if people insist on doing so then others can easily discount the cut content of TSL using the same flawed logic. That's my point.

 

In that case, most discussions are equally pointless, since it is rare indeed that people ever know all the facts. I also consider it sophistry on the basis that the discussions is thereby declared invalid (and people offering opinions in it ignorant, mistaken or stupid) simply because some of the "cut" content in KotOR was so uncompleted that even the developers can't tell us what it was supposed to be about.

 

For example, the live planets are not so much "cut" content as it is vapourware, because they never even got to truly develop it in the first place. The position that it might be just as significant as the cut content in TSL simply because it might possibly have been therefore seems very strained. Especially because it's pretty clear what the consequences of cutting certain things from TSL meant to the game, whereas claiming the same for KotOR is a free-for-all, because it might equally well be claimed to be extensive plot-building material about Revan's or Malak's childhood or just another limited place with treasures and gadgets that has no significance to the plot at all, as Yavin was.

[MetalMark]

Actually the cut content for both games is unimportant. Both games are good and finished the cut content doesn't change that fact. Both games are complete only to truly understand TSL you need to play it multiple times and get all influences the cut content also doesn't change this.