Spider AL Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 To the best of my knowledge homosexuality is a choice. Not being an expert on it that is how I see it.Expert or not, you must have some REASONS for believing that "homosexuality is a choice". I've already pointed out that the only reason you've cited (you believed that no homosexuals want to be straight) was erroneous, so what other reasons do you have? Please enlighten us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Since you fail to comprehend what I explained I will lay it out step by step. Some sixteen year old teenager is on the Internet, on Google, looking up pornography. He's a teenager, hormones are raging, and he's bored with the stuff he has already and is looking for something new. He comes across one porn site, and porn sites being what they are they open up other porn sites and one leads to a small video of one giuy ****ing another guy up the ass. The teenager sees this and rather than being disgusted finds this is something that he enjoys, and so he may experiment on his own, he may seek out other men so he can experiance what he has seen. Can you grasp that at least or is it too much for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Ahem. I can grasp your posts perfectly well, thank you Nancy. The attraction the teenager feels in the hypothetical situation you describe... Does not necessarily involve "choice". To choose is to decide. The teenager you're talking about finds that he is attracted to men. He has not consciously "chosen" to be attracted to men. So why are you talking about "choice" in this way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Obviously you are incapeable of understanding. Either that or you're trolling, one of the two. He made a choice to seek out these experiances with other men based on what he found. How many ways does it have to be said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomie Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Since you fail to comprehend what I explained I will lay it out step by step. Some sixteen year old teenager is on the Internet, on Google, looking up pornography. He's a teenager, hormones are raging, and he's bored with the stuff he has already and is looking for something new. He comes across one porn site, and porn sites being what they are they open up other porn sites and one leads to a small video of one giuy ****ing another guy up the ass. The teenager sees this and rather than being disgusted finds this is something that he enjoys, and so he may experiment on his own, he may seek out other men so he can experiance what he has seen. Can you grasp that at least or is it too much for you? He isn't disgusted. It's something he enjoys. So he was already gay before he ever even came into contact with the material. Nowhere in this story did he make a decision wether or not he would like men having sex with other men, he just found out that he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 I think I've grasped what you're saying quite well, actually Nancy. He made a choice to seek out these experiances with other men based on what he found. How many ways does it have to be said?Doomie is correct, this is where you've made something of an error. You're confusing homosexual ACTS (actual sex) with homosexuality and homosexual urges. (A desire to engage in homosexual acts.) In your little story, the teenager suddenly discovered that he found other men attractive. And THEN he went out and had sex with other men. But he didn't CHOOSE to be attracted to other men, he merely FOUND that he was attracted to other men. So his homosexuality wasn't a choice. The fact that he chose to have sex with the men he did, isn't relevant to whether "homosexuality is a choice". Do you see the distinction I'm trying to draw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 How does one define sexual preferrence and whether or not it's a choice? I'll use something that had been discovered when fighting child porn as an example. A friend of mine used to fight it and one of the things he said that would happen was that people would get into fighting it, not having seen any of the material but are rightfully outraged at the idea. Then they start fighting child porn, they see it when they find people dealing in it, ect, and they find that they actually get turned on by it. Would this mean that there's any number of potential pedophiles who don't even know it out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Theoretically, I suppose there could be loads of potential paedophiles, as well as potential furries, plushies, sports-bag fetishists... I don't see that this is relevant to the question at hand, however. As stated before, there is a distinction between sexual urges and sexual acts. It's a fairly clear distinction. Do you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Can you prove that it isn't a matter of choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 I can offer plenty of evidence to suggest that it isn't a matter of conscious choice. Two points for starters: 1. There are many homosexual people who don't want to be homosexual. 2. Homosexuality develops like any other sexual preference. Did I choose to be heterosexual?... Nope, I just... was. Homosexual people say the same thing, therefore sexual preference is not- as a rule- a matter of conscious choice. But of course the list is endless. What evidence do YOU have to suggest that it IS a matter of choosing to be gay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 You give me at least three web sites that prove inconclusively that it isn't a matter of choice and I'll put up my evidence. Until then you're wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 How can I be "wrong" when you haven't posted a shred of evidence to support YOUR claim, or to refute my arguments? That's madness! No, until YOU post your evidence, you are the only one who could possibly be wrong. Plus, to "prove inconclusively" is not what you meant, I think. Perhaps you meant "prove conclusively"? In which case, what would you accept as conclusive proof? I must know that before I consider attempting to prove it to you. Still, in the meantime, I shall give you one interesting report: American Academy of Pediatrics report on Homosexuality In the fourth paragraph, they agree with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 There is no point in challenging hypocrits unless you can really demonstrate their hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is about self-deceipt, and little good will come out of forcing people to face unpleasant truths about themselves. With that said, this proves nothing. You have failed to convince me that homosexuality is not a matter of choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Ah, now you're implying that I'm a hypocrite? How odd. As for whether I've failed to convince you or not... That's not really relevant, since I've adequately demonstrated that your comments are based on zero evidence, and in fact directly contradict the available evidence. Very nice debating with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Obviously you are incapeable of understanding. Either that or you're trolling, one of the two.Al is in no way trolling, so please refrain from suggesting that he is. He had clearly responded to your question. You give me at least three web sites that prove inconclusively that it isn't a matter of choice and I'll put up my evidence. Until then you're wrong.Wouldn't it be better to provide evidence to back up your claims? Then people can debate that evidence. Simply saying "you're wrong" doesn't advance the discussion any. If he is wrong, provide evidence that shows that. How does one define sexual preferrence and whether or not it's a choice? I'll use something that had been discovered when fighting child porn as an example. A friend of mine used to fight it and one of the things he said that would happen was that people would get into fighting it, not having seen any of the material but are rightfully outraged at the idea. Then they start fighting child porn, they see it when they find people dealing in it, ect, and they find that they actually get turned on by it. Would this mean that there's any number of potential pedophiles who don't even know it out there?That would mean there are potential pedophiles out there. I'm not sure what you are trying to show here. If anything, it supports Al's position. Such a person went in against pedophiles, but they found they enjoyed the concept. They didn't choose to enjoy it. Clearly their rational mind told them it was wrong. The only choice is whether they commited the acts afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Another example, hatred of men. Something like this could make a woman decide to seek comfort in the arms of a member of the same sex. What about something like Atheism? Now the nonbelief of religion is not a genetic thing is it? People see things like Christians bombing abortion clinics (and since it's the topic, condemning gays), Muslims preaching hatred and terrorism, Scientologists trying to destroy those who disagree or criticise them. Seeing these things would, and have, made people go 'stuff the lot of'em' and chosen to believe in no religion. Much the same applies to how some approach homosexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Another example, hatred of men. Something like this could make a woman decide to seek comfort in the arms of a member of the same sex.This argument irrelevant unless you intend to argue that every single homosexual person is actually a woman who hates men. Just because SOME people have made a choice for their sexuality doesn't mean you are allowed to lump everyone into the same group. What about something like Atheism?Complete non-sequitor. The two are not related at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 This argument irrelevant unless you intend to argue that every single homosexual person is actually a woman who hates men. Just because SOME people have made a choice for their sexuality doesn't mean you are allowed to lump everyone into the same group. Would it be equally as fallacious to say that because some believe that it's genetic homosexuality cannot be a choice? Unfortunetly you cannot have it both ways, you cannot say it's wrong to say it's a choice full stop and it's right to say there is no choice full stop. What I'm arguing is that women, some women (actually only a small percentage to be fair) would turn to homosexuality because of men, it was their choice. Complete non-sequitor. The two are not related at all. Actually the same as people may choose to be Atheist based on what they've seen and what they experiance someone would choose to practice homosexuality based on what they see and what they experiance, so they would be related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaelastraz Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Actually the same as people may choose to be Atheist based on what they've seen and what they experiance someone would choose to practice homosexuality based on what they see and what they experiance, so they would be related. Are you also saying that eating behavior is related to homosexuality too? From what I've seen and what I've experienced I choose to "practise" vegetarianism. I think it's odd to claim that homosexuality is a choice. It may be a choice to actually declare yourself homosexual and to accept it, but I don't think you can help it if you're attracted to the same sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 That's actually part of the problem I think, I'm probably thinking more along the lines of homosexual activity, coming out of the closet, that sort of thing. What causes it in the first place? ****ed if I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Would it be equally as fallacious to say that because some believe that it's genetic homosexuality cannot be a choice? Unfortunetly you cannot have it both ways, you cannot say it's wrong to say it's a choice full stop and it's right to say there is no choice full stop.Nancy... Who has said "there is no choice full stop"? Who has said this? I've not said it. ET hasn't said it. Vael hasn't said it. So please, stop propping up the straw-men everywhere. The fact is that the available evidence suggests that homosexuality, like EVERY sexual preference, is partly nature, and partly nurture. The evidence does NOT suggest that it is a "matter of conscious choice". If you want to ignore the evidence, fine. But be honest about it. As regards your tangent on atheism, ET is correct, it's a total non-sequitur. Utterly irrelevant, utterly random. As regards your contention that some women who hate men just BECOME homosexual, I don't think it holds water. No matter how badly I've been treated by women in the past, I've never started to find Tom Selleck attractive. Honest. So it follows that those women who become lesbians after being badly treated by men ALREADY had some degree of innate bi-sexuality that meant they were CAPABLE of finding members of their own gender attractive. Finally, even if you were to find a totally straight woman who suddenly became a lesbian after being in an abusive relationship with a man... That surely would be classified as a conditioned sexual preference, and therefore not a matter of conscious choice. I'm probably thinking more along the lines of homosexual activity, coming out of the closet, that sort of thing. What causes it in the first place?"Why do gay people come out of the closet?" isn't the topic of this thread. "Why do gay people actually have sex with each other?" isn't the topic of this thread. And with all due respect... neither of those questions is interesting at all, and both of those questions have obvious answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Would it be equally as fallacious to say that because some believe that it's genetic homosexuality cannot be a choice? Since your genetics are predetermined, how can it be a choice? Did you choose to have the genetics you have? Did you choose to be tall or short? Did you choose to like one food but not another? Do you decide who you find physically attractive? Why must it a choice for gays in these scenarios but not for straight people? Unfortunetly you cannot have it both ways, you cannot say it's wrong to say it's a choice full stop and it's right to say there is no choice full stop. But it isn't having in both ways. There is one way. To support your argument, you need to show that being genetically predisposed to enjoy something is a choice of the idividual. What I'm arguing is that women, some women (actually only a small percentage to be fair) would turn to homosexuality because of men, it was their choice.They choice was to perform a homosexual act in that case, not to all of a sudden be physically attracted to members of the same sex. So it follows that those women who become lesbians after being badly treated by men ALREADY had some degree of innate bi-sexuality that meant they were CAPABLE of finding members of their own gender attractive.Or, they make the choice to ignore their physical attractions to members of the opposite sex. In any event, the argument is against the claim that all homosexual feelings by nature are a decision made by each individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 As I said I was probably thinking more homosexual activity. So, am I going to be put on trial for thinking that? Should I consult a lawyer for daring to suggest homosexuality is a matter of choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 You are in a debate forum, Nancy. People are going to debate with you when they believe you are stating things that are not correct. In addition, the thread is not about "why do homosexual people act like homosexual people". The threads purpose is to debate why people are homosexual in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 And pick fights every chance you can, natrually. Lie, cheat, steal, the objective is to win by any means nessecary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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