Things you'd like to see in KOTOR 3, plot-wise.

[SilentScope001]

Great idea, though, don't get me wrong; but unlikely given how Kreia characterizes them.

 

Of course. Why else would it be a plot twist/mad idea? Nobody ever thought Revan (pre-wipe) was the 'good guy' in K1 after all.

 

Prehaps the developers of K3 could easily state (or imply) that the Sith teachings themselves [which leads to you wanting to grow as strong as uberly possible] are not wrong, but that how one interprets them leads them down the evil path. Having the appercinate and the master duel each other to the death to see who is stronger in the Force is actually a somewhat good idea, as a way of judging strength in the Force.

 

Still, I can be okay with the True Sith being Overtly Evil, after all, TSL was reamed for its plot, and classic Star Wars is classic for a reason. There better be some other good plot twist in its place though.

[Samurai DD]

-DEFINING Exile and Revan's alignment. Otherwise, it feels as though Exile and Revan is out of my control, and I have no reason to play. I played TSL because you get to define Revan's alignment. And Revan and Exile are my characters.

 

OK, make the devs do ten different games, all of the same quality level, with different planets, people and everything else. Or again, back to TSL: Revan and the Exile, being some of the most important and most powerful Force users ever have no impact at all in anything and being both LS or DS, simply decide to go away and do nothing so you can decide their fates!

 

Of course Revan and the Exile are out of your control. The one under your control is the new PC, dammit. If everything in Star Wars where you as a player have a choice doesn't have a canonical decision, it would be immensely stupid and would require for impossible quantities of work. Take "The Force Unleashed" for example. In the game, you will have all the endings you can wish for. But the book and comics will have ONE canonical story. If there's going to be a TFU2, devs would have to assume the novel's ending.

[SilentScope001]

OK, make the devs do ten different games, all of the same quality level, with different planets, people and everything else. Or again, back to TSL: Revan and the Exile, being some of the most important and most powerful Force users ever have no impact at all in anything and being both LS or DS, simply decide to go away and do nothing so you can decide their fates!

 

Of course Revan and the Exile are out of your control. The one under your control is the new PC, dammit. If everything in Star Wars where you as a player have a choice doesn't have a canonical decision, it would be immensely stupid and would require for impossible quantities of work. Take "The Force Unleashed" for example. In the game, you will have all the endings you can wish for. But the book and comics will have ONE canonical story. If there's going to be a TFU2, devs would have to assume the novel's ending.

 

Note that in TSL, you can find out what happen if Revan fell to the Dark Side. The story was enhanced when Revan fell to the DS, and actually seemed better than the "canon" storyline. All you do is throw switches, and you decide the begining of the third game, but never the ending.

 

For example, no matter what happens, Revan goes off to fight the True Sith. It will be the same in the canon ending, and in the non-canon ending as well. So what? If we had it be LSM, then Revan still would have went to fight off True Sith, but there would be no content, and people like me would be angry, since it shows that the game designers don't care for us. But, the DSM begining is quite similar to the LSM Revan's begining, the only difference is the fact that you get access to one Holocron in the Sith Acadmey.

 

If Exile is DS, then what? The Jedi Order's alignment is likely to change to Grey or Dark. That's it. They still will do everything else a regural canonical Jedi Order would do. All they do is change a few lines, and provide the illusion of control, when there is none. And you want to strip away a key feature that is easy to make and provide you immersiveness in a game?

 

They pulled it off in TSL, and they did so succesfully. I bought TSL because of this feature, and if it is taken out, then many people won't play K3. Especially since some people claim that DSM Exile is actually the best way to play TSL...fitting in its mood.

 

LSM Revan and LSF Exile only exist for novels and comic books. But you won't intervene with my preception of Revan and Exile, both DSM.

 

Lastly: I heard they are actually planning to have all endings in TFU be declared canon actually. Now, that's stupid. But even this showcases that LucasArts want to provide the player an illusion of control, as it makes them want to play the game more.

[Samurai DD]

They pulled it off in TSL, and they did so succesfully. I bought TSL because of this feature, and if it is taken out, then many people won't play K3. Especially since some people claim that DSM Exile is actually the best way to play TSL...fitting in its mood.

 

Lastly: I heard they are actually planning to have all endings in TFU be declared canon actually. Now, that's stupid. But even this showcases that LucasArts want to provide the player an illusion of control, as it makes them want to play the game more.

 

Well, I guess to you it makes a big difference a bit of dialog that had no impact in TSL whatsoever but just made the story crappy and without strength. You said that Revan's alignment did not make a big difference in the story. That's what I'm saying. It should have made a huge impact into KOTOR II's plot. Going to the unknowns regions is a poor excuse of the devs to, as you said, give you a minimal illusion of "control" that does not exist.

 

And that TFU rumor is completely false, in official statements they have said that the only canon story is the one in the novel and comic books, which is obviously one ending. It has nothing to do with an "illusion of control". The control you have, that is not an illusion is the one over your PC. Control over Revan and the Exile is just that, an illusion, a small, unnecessary, and, if possible to make right, would require at least four different games into one. And if it affects only the beginning as you say, what is the damn point? The point of KOTOR III will be that the new PC decides the fate of the galaxy, he is the one that you choose the alignment. Revan and the Exile already decided for the LS canonically. A gray Jedi Order? Kind of like Luke's New Order? In the Old Republic, that won't happen for a fact. A DS Order? What are you smoking now? Would they do the same as LS Jedi? Please.

[Sir Vougalot]

Okay, to address something not exactly on-topic with the current discussion: there is a huge problem with Revan and the Exile making appearances in the next game: the fact that they were fully customizable. Not only would you need to define their genders and alignments, but you'd also have to somehow define which head they had, and they'd have to be from the ones available in the previous two games. That is, if we ever see their faces. They could do what they did with Revan's appearance in Ludo Kresh's tomb in KOTOR 2 by having him appear fully robed and masked. But that was an illusion; a representation. If we specify that Revan was a light-sider, then I don't see why in the world he'd be wearing his Sith Lord garb again.

 

This is why it is nigh impossible for Revan and/or the Exile to appear in KOTOR 3.

 

Unless they choose one head for each character from each gender (four in total) as being their "canonical" face, thus not caring how we customized them before. But then by doing so they shatter the entire feeling of having semi-created those characters yourself, and possibly even mess up each person's own personal feeling of continuity as the faces that they had choses in the previous games may not have been what appears in KOTOR 3.

[SilentScope001]

Well, I guess to you it makes a big difference a bit of dialog that had no impact in TSL whatsoever but just made the story crappy and without strength. You said that Revan's alignment did not make a big difference in the story. That's what I'm saying. It should have made a huge impact into KOTOR II's plot. Going to the unknowns regions is a poor excuse of the devs to, as you said, give you a minimal illusion of "control" that does not exist.

 

And that TFU rumor is completely false, in official statements they have said that the only canon story is the one in the novel and comic books, which is obviously one ending. It has nothing to do with an "illusion of control". The control you have, that is not an illusion is the one over your PC. Control over Revan and the Exile is just that, an illusion, a small, unnecessary, and, if possible to make right, would require at least four different games into one. And if it affects only the beginning as you say, what is the damn point? The point of KOTOR III will be that the new PC decides the fate of the galaxy, he is the one that you choose the alignment. Revan and the Exile already decided for the LS canonically. A gray Jedi Order? Kind of like Luke's New Order? In the Old Republic, that won't happen for a fact. A DS Order? What are you smoking now? Would they do the same as LS Jedi? Please.

 

The point is that it continues to further the fact that you are in control of your character. You decide what your character does.

 

I don't see why you need 4 seperate games when it is so unnecesary. The fact is, if it was restricted only to canon, it will STILL have the exact same storyline as before, and nothing new or different would be added. Revan is a LSM, so what can be added to that? I mean, anything other than useless padding? Nothing. It will however get many people away from K3, like me and Jediphile. Many people hate the canon choice, even some Light Side-players like LSM Exile more than a LSF Exile and some people like a LSF Revan more than a LSM Revan. Are you going to take that away from them, then, make them have no fun at all?

 

Even in TSL, you have control over Revan's motivations in the Jedi Civil War, before his capture. Was he fighting to save the Republic or was he seduced to the Dark Side? You have total control over your character, which makes it very unique in the series. And you have control over why Revan went to the Unknown Regions. Did he do it to stop the True Sith? Or was he wanting to conquer it for his own goals?

 

And, why shouldn't there be a DS Jedi or Grey Jedi Order? Kreia states that the True Jedi are the ones who will found the Jedi Order, regardless if you are LS or DS. The Grey Jedi Order makes much sense for the devs of K3 for a Dark Sider, allowing for the game to continue while making Dark Siders feel that they are being respected.

 

Obisidan did very well in TSL, and I hope you choose alignment and gender for Revan and Exile in K3 as well.

 

I will disengage from the conflict with you, and hope you understand.

 

They could do what they did with Revan's appearance in Ludo Kresh's tomb in KOTOR 2 by having him appear fully robed and masked. But that was an illusion; a representation. If we specify that Revan was a light-sider, then I don't see why in the world he'd be wearing his Sith Lord garb again.

 

How do we even know it was a Sith Lord garb? It could just be that Revan wears it all the time as a Jedi, and just kept it when he went to the Dark Side, so people assume it is a Sith Lord garb. For canon LS, Revan would just wear his traditional garb, which happens to be that garb, plus it looks cool. For a Dark Sider, he'll just wear it because he wore it during the past as a Sith Lord and its quite sentimental.

 

(Plus, wasn't there a bunch of LS robes that can be gotten in the Star Forge? If one really wants, the LS Revan could wear those LS Robes instead, and a DS Revan could wear the DS Robes. Both keep the mask though.)

 

All you then need is a mask for Exile. Nihilus' mask can do quite nicely for that.

[Sir Vougalot]

But then we're stuck with these characters wearing masks to cover up a big, obvious continuity problem, which will feel extremely hokey to most players. "Oh, well they were customizable characters, so the faces are a problem. Let's just put them both in masks." No one's going to buy it.

 

The only reason I bought it in the vision that you and Bastila have in KOTOR 1 of a fully-vested Revan infiltrating the Rakatan ruins on Dantooine is because they player, as Revan but know knowing that s/he is Revan, would obviously not see him/herself standing there in place of a figure that his/her mind and the Force recognize as Revan, so, in the vision, the self-image is substituted for a representational figure of the Dark Lord Darth Revan, when in reality Revan and Malak were Jedi at that point and likely dressed normally. (Bastila, on the other hand, probably saw the player character in the dream, knowing Revan's identity.)

 

And the only reason I bought it (barely) in the tomb in KOTOR 2 was that the vision was, once again, a representation of Revan.

[Samurai DD]

*Smashes head against wall repeatedly.*

 

SilentScope seems to completely miss my point or what I am talking about.

[SilentScope001]

But then we're stuck with these characters wearing masks to cover up a big, obvious continuity problem, which will feel extremely hokey to most players. "Oh, well they were customizable characters, so the faces are a problem. Let's just put them both in masks." No one's going to buy it.

 

But, are faces really that important? The only thing that matters is alignment and gender, really. If people are allowed to set alignment and gender, then why need to show faces? You can imagine what your Revan and Exile looks like, because you know what your Revan and Exile look like. I can buy it, and I'm sure lots of other people can buy it, due to the fact that Revan's attiude would change. Revan would do LS stuff if Revan was LS, Revan would do DS stuff if Revan was DS.

 

I don't see the need to see Revan's face, not as many other people. A mask would just suffice. You look at the Mask, you know he is Revan. And why would Revan not wear a mask? Is he not a Jedi Knight who wants to deck himself out in the most powerful of armor to wipe out the enemy? Maybe it's a tradition in his homeworld, etc.

 

However, I do agree that we should not see Revan and Exile that much. The reason is because I don't want to fuel fanboyism...not because it isn't possible.

[Sir Vougalot]

I just think throwing everyone in masks to cover up the problem of them being past customizable characters is a cheap and lazy way around it, and the public is definitely going to pick up on that truth. I'd rather not see them at all if it comes to that.

[SilentScope001]

Alright, I understand. I would like to see Revan and Exile in masks, but I understand what you mean. Even so, it seems that they have to have Revan and Exile over there, if only to reveal their fates. Killing them off-screen (by stating that Revan and Exile heroically died fighting True Sith) however could be more suitable than the mask idea, if you prefer that way.

[Masgrtgr]

Eh I can't really see a DS Revan or Exile dieing a hero's death.

[John Galt]

I definitely think the Canon endings should be nailed down for K3, otherwise there would either have to be multiple, multiple plot deviations for LSM/LSF, and all the other options, or a convoluted cookie-cutter plot on a far grander scale than we saw in TSL.

 

The Face issue could be dealt with rather easily: Kill off the Exile, and allow Revan to keep the robes and mask. Besides, the fact that nobody knew what Revan actually looked like under the mask might indicate that he had always worn the mask, even as a light sider. As I recall, in the first Vision, on Dantooine, RIGHT BEFORE REVAN AND MALAK FELL, Revan was already wearing his signature mask and robes, although Malak had none of the trappings of the Sith.

[Samurai DD]

As I recall, in the first Vision, on Dantooine, RIGHT BEFORE REVAN AND MALAK FELL, Revan was already wearing his signature mask and robes, although Malak had none of the trappings of the Sith.

 

He was already pretty much into the Dark Side by then. Of course, the mask and robes were an excuse for various things. But using that mask as a Jedi still? And those black robes? A bit extreme, don't you think? I mean, Anakin by the Clone Wars used different clothing than the Jedi "standard" as an indicative of the Dark Side too, but Revan's robes and mask are way too much. They used it for game mechanics, they couldn't have made a dozen different videos just because you choose some face. And, that gives us another fact, Revan is a normal human, why would he hide under a mask? I maintain my strict canon position: give both Revan and the Exile canonical appearances.

[Sir Vougalot]

As I recall, in the first Vision, on Dantooine, RIGHT BEFORE REVAN AND MALAK FELL, Revan was already wearing his signature mask and robes.

Go back and read my last post. That was a representation, because the dreamer - Revan himself - did not know that he was Reven at that time, so naturally he would have seen the familiar Sith Lord in place of himself. In reality, Revan would have probably been still dressed as a Jedi when the events of that vision actually took place, as was Malak.

 

And there is nothing to indicate that no one knew what Revan looked like before his fall. Everyone who mentions him - such as Juhani and Canderous - speak of him as a hero whom they admired from afar, but have never seen in person. Others who knew his identity - Bastila and Jolee - simply avoided telling Reven that he was Revan, so they talked about "Revan" as if he were someone else. And Carth, it sounds as if he had never know Revan until he was a Sith Lord, so he would have never seen him unmasked.

[John Galt]

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/thumb/2/22/Shadows_and_Light.jpg/327px-Shadows_and_Light.jpg

 

The defeat of Darth Malak at the hands of a redeemed Revan, as seen in Duron Qel-Droma's visions.

 

In the picture, he is still wearing his signature mask and robes, although he wields a blue lightsaber and has presumably returned to the Light Side. Also, I recall Yuthura mentioning Revan always having worn a mask, so no-one in the Sith Academy knew what Revan actually looked like.

[Sir Vougalot]

I knew someone was going to bring that up.

 

Again: a representation! This should be obvious, especially since we know that we do not obtain Revan's robes in the canonical light side ending. Duron has obviously never seen Revan face-to-face.

 

And Yuthura mentions nothing of Revan's pre-Sith life. It's clear that she's only talking about his Sith career.

[Samurai DD]

What he said.