The True Sith Great Debate

[Sir Vougalot]

Oh yeah: Also, the theory I posted is merely just the latest in my many theories on the subject. I also have one that is nearly identical to yours, suggesting that there needs to be an unbroken line of "true" Sith succession, and that the Sith of Darth Ruin's and Darth bane's orders, as well as Palpatine and his apprentices from the films, are a continuation of this line and not Revan's. But they still hold Revan as an honorary Sith since he had such a profound impact on the Rule of Two philosophy; in much the same way that the Sith hold Xendor as an honorary Dark Lord, even though he was in no way connected to their line of succession.

 

This other theory I'm mentioning now has two variants: one that branches off from the Sith who abandoned Korriban following the Great Hyperspace War, as you said, and one that connects them directly to Xendor and the Legions of Lettow, and not actually affiliated with the Exiles of 6,900 BBY at all.

 

So there you go: two very different theories from me regarding the "true Sith," one with two variants. I'm pretty sure I've got a few more as well, but I'll have to think of them. (I believe I posted them in the previous thread on the subject.)

[Feagildin]

I feel no need to retcon all my favorite bad guys into pretenders and Holocron thief's.

 

QFT

 

What does it really matter? Sith use the DS. Jedi use the LS. End of topic!

[RedHawke]

Just to clarify, the term "True Sith" was used, specifically, in the late 80's. If it was anything other than that specific term, we have our wires crossed.

There is something crossed here... They were consistently referred to as some sort of mysterious elder race... True Sith, The True Sith Race, etc.

 

Also I didn't mean to state that the concept of the "True Sith" was created here, but that one particular definition of that term was - at the very least - popularized on these (and the EU) forums as referring to a species of alien.

This is a Star Wars fan forum... so it being discussed here and promoted here is to be expected. But you indeed made some blanket statements/assumptions.

 

I will ignore the 'canon' debate... as they are fruitless to participate in.

 

But I do wish to make one final point...

 

With all due respect, try to keep your ego in check.

So you felt a need to slip in a small snide personal remark because you don't like what I have said here?

 

You need to deal with the topic, if you feel a need to analyze the poster like you did then you need to re-think why you are posting at all... and yes it was indeed your intention to take a personal 'jab' at me with this remark. Personal observations/attacks are never a good thing to do in a discussion.

[Yar-El]

Caution... This is new information provided by a very new book. Caution...

 

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Darth Revan, Prodigal Knight

Pg. 154

 

 

... He strikes out for the Rim alone, searching for what he believes is the true Sith menace.

 

 

...true Sith menace. Word capitalization may be important here. Using the lowercase letter changes the proper noun. Could the true Sith menace be referring to just another faction? Could the word true be referencing a stronger and more powerful group of Sith? Sith during the Dark Wars were fractured into smaller groups. Could Revan be referring to a more united and stronger faction of Sith in the Outer Rim? There may not be a True Sith species after all.

 

We may be looking at another group of Sith, but they are more united and stronger. Revan could have evaluated between two Sith threats, and had decided to go after the more powerful faction. We will have to wait and see.

 

[TKA-001]

I think drawing conclusions based on capitalization of a single word comes a little too close to splitting hairs.

[Sir Vougalot]

Especially considering that the word "true" was not capitalized in Kreia's monologue in the game. Capitalization of the word "true" so that "True Sith" is the actual name of this enigmatic people is completely fanon.

[Yar-El]

I think drawing conclusions based on capitalization of a single word comes a little too close to splitting hairs.

Ask your english teacher if it matters. I bet you it does. We need to dig into the game's dialog. Do the characters use an uppercase or lowercase for the word true?

 

I don't have The Sith Lords installed, so someone will have to look it up. Zerimar?

[rictus135]

So you felt a need to slip in a small snide personal remark because you don't like what I have said here?

 

You need to deal with the topic, if you feel a need to analyze the poster like you did then you need to re-think why you are posting at all... and yes it was indeed your intention to take a personal 'jab' at me with this remark. Personal observations/attacks are never a good thing to do in a discussion.

 

I meant it more as a cautionary remark than personal jab. You seemed to be saying that canon should take a backseat to your own opinion.

I don't think it is appropriate to disregard canon, and stating that contents of LucasArts licensed material are invalid on the LucasForums seems like a much worse idea than a snide remark. To be perfectly frank, I still believe my comment is quite reasonable.

[Yar-El]

Caution... This is new information provided by a very new book. Caution...

 

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Darth Traya, Lord of Betrayal

Pg. 158

 

CONFLICT FOUND.

 

 

...Intrigued, Kreia scours the texts through the Force, suspecting their authors were in fact pureblooded descendants of the Sith people.

 

We have a conflict with the meaning of true Sith. Revan is looking for the true Sith menace. Kreia studied from books in which she believed were written by the pureblooded descendants of the Sith people. Could this be the original Korriban descendants?

 

I think we are all correct in some weird way. We need more input. More data please.

 

Calling Lucas now.

 

 

[Sir Vougalot]

I don't have The Sith Lords installed, so someone will have to look it up. Zerimar?

 

I have it installed, but I can't be bothered to play through the entire game just to get to the ending so I can confirm this. Especially not with The Force Unleashed coming out in eight days. But I am one hundred percent certain that I saw it without the word "true" capitalized.

 

Try YouTube?

 

Edit: I've found it. Pause the video at 4:37 and, squinting, you can see that the word "true" is indeed in all lower cases. It's a little hard to see, but I was correct.

 

Edit 2: Why are we forbidden from embedding YouTube videos on these forums? In any case,

's the link to the video.

 

 

 

 

Interesting information, Yar-El. I wonder how soon this information will be up at Wookieepedia?

[RedHawke]

I meant it more as a cautionary remark than personal jab.

Well you sure have a weird way of doing it then... for what you wrote was a personal jab and nowhere near a "cautionary remark".

 

You simply felt a need to 'chastise' me for what I posted because you didn't like it, simple as that. That is where you went wrong... your 'cautionary remark' was out of line.

 

You seemed to be saying that canon should take a backseat to your own opinion.

The operative word is "seemed" here... you once again are making bad assumptions. So instead of asking for clarification from me, which is far more friendly and is what a 'discussion' is, you chose instead to make a personal attack because you didn't like what I wrote.

 

I don't think it is appropriate to disregard canon, and stating that contents of LucasArts licensed material are invalid on the LucasForums seems like a much worse idea than a snide remark.

Snide remarks are a form of flaming so keep those to yourself... that's was my point. Deal with the topic not the poster... simple as that.

 

Also I never did post anything about "stating that contents of LucasArts licensed material are invalid on the LucasForums"... once again it seems you got your "wires crossed".

 

To be perfectly frank, I still believe my comment is quite reasonable.

I disagree. Add to this you offered me no apology here proves to me you were indeed taking a shot at me.

[Yar-El]

I have it installed, but I can't be bothered to play through the entire game just to get to the ending so I can confirm this. Especially not with The Force Unleashed coming out in eight days. But I am one hundred percent certain that I saw it without the word "true" capitalized.

 

Try YouTube?

 

Edit: I've found it. Pause the video at 4:37 and, squinting, you can see that the word "true" is indeed in all lower cases. It's a little hard to see, but I was correct.

 

Edit 2: Why are we forbidden from embedding YouTube videos on these forums? In any case,

's the link to the video.

 

Interesting information, Yar-El. I wonder how soon this information will be up at Wookieepedia?

I didn't think about using YouTube.

I did see a lowercase t on the word true. YouTube resolution stinks at times. I'm going to keep reading. Maybe another character's background information has another clue.

[rictus135]

@RedHawke

Very well, I will avoid directing remarks towards the poster from now on.

 

Comments such as "Oy! Here we go again... canon... that mysterious thing that gives people the authoritah to tell others they don't know crap. "

And "I will ignore the 'canon' debate... as they are fruitless to participate in."

Show you are clearly NOT interested in discussing the subject of canon. Had your comments been more constructive, or more clearly defining your view of the matter I would never have directed any comment towards you instead of your post.

I am interested in everyones views, both conflicting and assertive. I am also open to criticism. I felt your comments were not directed towards me and my opinion, but at Star Wars canon, which I have always taken to be the "truth" as far as the Star Wars Universe goes.

 

@Yar-El

I used a cappitalized "true" due to the significance put on the word by the community.

 

As to the information provided in those quotes from the book, I can only say that without greater context it does not necassarily point away from my theory. I had always suspected that the threat Revan saw was the threat of a faction of true Sith, due in part to Canderous saying it was the Sith who came to the Mandalorians with to suggest war with the republic. Since Exar Kun was defeated some 20 or so years prior to this, it seemed apparent that another Sith threat existed.

As to your second quote, it all really depends on whether these writings were directly related to Revans search, or whether it was a result of her own search, that may have taken a seperate branch to Revans. If it is directly related to Revans search, than it seems more likely the true/True Sith are a species after all, not the Cult.

[RedHawke]

@RedHawke

 

Comments such as "Oy! Here we go again... canon... that mysterious thing that gives people the authoritah to tell others they don't know crap. "

And "I will ignore the 'canon' debate... as they are fruitless to participate in."

Show you are clearly NOT interested in discussing the subject of canon.

My post you were quoting has nothing to do with canon... even remotely. Neither did the conversation it came from really.

 

And yes canon debates are fruitless... and many end up closed or heated with many ruffled feathers.

 

Had your comments been more constructive, or more clearly defining your view of the matter I would never have directed any comment towards you instead of your post.

There is no reasonable way you should ever direct rude comments like that to another poster. There is nothing remotely justifiable in what you did... period.

 

I am interested in everyones views, both conflicting and assertive. I am also open to criticism.

Your reactions towards me here clearly state otherwise.

 

Edit: But enough of this, back on topic folks...

[Sir Vougalot]

I had always assumed that the Sith who goaded the Mandalorians into attacking the Republic were the remnants of Exar Kun's Brotherhood of the Sith, existing as a small community mainly on Korriban. (Wookieepedia was under this impression for a while, mentioning in one of their articles -- I forget which -- that Revan and Malak came upon the remnants of this clan at the Academy on Korriban.) I believe that Revan and Malak, in order to be true Sith Lords (and I don't mean "true" as in the same sense as the enigmatic"true Sith," I mean "true" as in of the unbroken line of Sith succession), they had to be ordained by the Sith on Korriban. (One must be ordained by a Sith Lord of the unbroken line of succession from the Dark Jedi Exiles, as we see Anakin ordained by Darth Sidious in Revenge of the Sith.) But, being the fearless leaders of this massive Dark Jedi fleet, they would not compromise their pride and image of superiority by succumbing to long years of training at the hands of the Academy's Masters. Instead, I would say that they most likely acquired all of their Sith knowledge, philosophy and discipline from scouring Korriban and studying various artifacts for themselves -- holocrons and the like -- and once they were strong enough in the dark arts, they invaded the Sith Academy and conquered it, forcing the Academy's Master's hand in their ordination to the Sith. Now Sith, they were free to rise up against the Master of the Academy (perhaps this was Jorak Uln), declared themselves Sith Lords, and then mass-ordained their entire Dark Jedi army to the Sith.

 

They needed to be of the unbroken line of succession, obtaining ordination from Exar Kun's lineage, who in turn was ordained by the spirit of Marka Ragnos, if you'll recall.

 

So, in a nutshell, I believe that the Sith Canderous was referring to was what remained of Exar Kun's Sith, before Revan, and not the mysterious "true Sith."

 

Also, if you think about it, Revan, Malak and their followers would have been like a second group of Dark Jedi conquerors who subjected the Sith to their rule, provided my theory is correct. History repeats itself. I just hope the comic series doesn't prove me wrong.