Jedi verse Jedi, Sabers Only

[Wilhuf]

RAVEN, that system sounds pretty good. As long as the blocking actually worked pretty well. That way, there would be some actual tactics in saber dueling. You have to constantly evaluate the risk of attacking versus defending.

 

With manual blocking, if you have to commit to a block, you're not attacking of course. This means you could be supressed by an agressive attacker. If the blocking isn't pretty effective, it's not worth requiring the gamer to actually press a button to block.

 

How about a block move that is also somewhat agressive, such as a block that pushes the enemy weapon out of the way, but still allows you to hit the enemy. (This is a basic foil move, not sure if it is standard to saber dueling).

 

I doubt that the gameplay system will be so complex that you can actually do high/low/inside/outside line attacks and parries. (Although SOF2 tech supports per-pixel collision.)

 

Also, how would we do combination type attacks if our right mouse button is committed to defensive moves? Maybe through a combination of keys?

[SlowbieOne]

As I said a few posts back Wilhuf, Lucasarts says they will have a slew of defense moves so I wouldn't doubt if they have something like an aggressive block.

 

I think left mouse and right mouse should be saber attacks and block should be the middle mouse button. It worked very well in Rune.

[Covax]

On a branching topic, since I was a huge LSvsLS fan: the duel.

 

There was the one map in JK (the platform where you fight Maw) where I would always try to initiate Tournaments, 2 guys would go at it one on one while the otheres watched (and hekled). The winner took on the next guy.

 

My only claim to fame was that I introduced 'bowing', ie shut down your LS, look down then look back up, turing on the LS. A minor thing to some, but important differance between JK Duelists and Quake Fragmasters.

[Irimi-Ai1587246519]

whoa whoa whoa, people. i came in late on this one, but i've gotta mention one thing regarding the manual vs. automatic blocking and whether to have an option for it in game settings. first off, having a block key would not make anything more laggy during MP. second off (and i can't believe no one's mentioned this or heard of it) there is an existing mod for mysteries of the sith that HAS manual blocking in it, plus 10 attack moves (inlcuding the original primary and secondary attacks from JK...it might be more, but i can only think of 10 right now). this mod also had an option to turn the automatic blocking on or off in the game settings screen. another neat feature of this mod was that blocking took mana/force power to perform. to me, this makes sense. in all the SW books, whenever someone is blocking blaster fire with a lightsaber, it's usually described as letting go and letting the force guide the blocker's hands (much like luke had to do on the millenium falcon to block the little floating blaster droid). a 'normal' person would not be able to block blaster shots with a lightsaber because blocking with a saber necessitates using the force. this is why lightsabers are generally only effective offensive and defensive weapons in the hands of someone who is very force sensitive. also, when fighting a (dark) jedi who has a saber, it would take the force to be able to block and foresee where their attack was going to come from, the same way with blaster shots. anyway, i thought that making the block take up some mana was a really cool idea, and was much more true to the books/movies. it just surprises me that this mod has been out for at least 2 years and no one hear has heard of it or played it evidently. it already HAS everything your talking about, plus more. the mod is called the art of the lightsaber, and modifies strictly saber attacks/moves. you should all give it a try (if you have mysteries of the sith) and then post your opinions about it having tried a similar system. i can say for myself that i love the manual block system. it really makes you have to be aware of timing and tactics, and requires much more skill to remain alive. duals using the art of the lightsaber mod are hardly EVER strafing and circling. the manual block and all the attack moves and evasion moves contributes to this.

 

Irimi-Ai

[SlowbieOne]

I don't like the thought of using mana to block. So what if you run out of mana? You can't block? Pretty lame if you ask me. After all, this is a game. It would slow down the pace.

[Irimi-Ai1587246519]

yeah, it would make it so you coulnd't block. it would take a lot of blocking to do that (it only took a little mana), but that's the point: it makes you think about tactics. you can't just sit there and block all day, and if you use force run, seeing, persuasion all at the same time, you won't have any left for blocking. to me, that makes a lot of sense. in the movies/books, you don't see (dark) jedi running around using 4 force powers at once and blocking blaster bolts. in 'visions of the future', luke is barely able to block blaster shots from several guards who are directly in front of him because the guards had ysalamiri strapped on their backs. that little area of not being able to sense the force made luke barely able to block the shots. and while he was doing that, it took all of his concentration. there was no way he could have used force persausion, or jump, or whatever. anyway, it would make it so you couldn't block...that just means you've got to play smarter and think more. like i said, try out the mod THEN post your opinions.

[SlowbieOne]

I've tried the mod, but it has nothing to do with Jedi Outcast. This is a completely different engine and game.

 

What if you want to play no force sabers?

Then how do u block?

 

What you are talking about in the books has nothing to do with saber duels. It has to do with reflecting blaster bolts.

 

Since when do you need force to swing and block with the saber? JK had auto saber blocking, and didn't consume any force, the way it should be.

[Chewie_Rips]

Whats the name of the mod, and I presume its at Massassi???....I'll give it a try, but I havent played a mod yet that I played for more that a day..

[DeathBoLT]

Hopefully blocking in NF sabers doesn't become an issue; why? Because in JK2, there ought not be a division in the form of NF/FF sabers, NF/FF guns. I'd personally like to see the division in form of certain personalities or gun/saberist, etc.

 

The reason no force sabers play even started because of the way the force was in Jedi Knight. You really couldn't saber duel simply because focusing on force use became the key to winning. People wanting to go at it with sabers had to goto NF because you can't survive with the saber as your main weapon with destructions flying around. Even going lighty wasn't really saber dueling because you were still running around at mach 4 due to force speed.

 

I'm hoping JK2 balances the saber and force abilties so that NF sabers isn't really neccessary because the force would add to the saber dueling experience - not dominate it.

 

btw please post a link where I could download this Art of the Lightsaber mod for MotS.

[Tre Lightshadow]

Art of the Lightsaber? That mod (to me) seems slow paced, and some of the moves get complicated (like holding down Force saber move or whatever and doing all the other stuff.) get Saber Battle X for Jedi Knight, that mod is sweet, you can do new moves and you also have new evasive attacks. It rules. Oh ya, it's at Massassi.

[KillerBee]

I would rather see joers with no devision..

[Irimi-Ai1587246519]

SLOWBIE:

 

1) I've tried the mod, but it has nothing to do with Jedi Outcast. This is a completely different engine and game.

 

I'm well aware that art of the lightsaber is a mod for MOTS, which is not JK2: Outcast. As such, I am also well aware that this is a completely different game and engine. My only point in bringing up the AOTL mod was because there was some discussion regarding manual blocking. I was only trying to inform people that there was a mod for MOTS that already incorporated such a system, and suggested that others try it and see what they thought, rather than just thinking about it. If I pointed out a mod for MOTS that's been around and I've played for 2 years and I'm posting on a group that is dedicated to JK2, don't you think I *know* that JK/MOTS and JK2 are different games? Think about it.

 

2) What if you want to play no force sabers?

Then how do u block?

 

If you want to play NF sabers, then you set up a character whose only force power is force saber fighting (the force power you use to block, do the side evasive rolls, and stab with the saber), while those you are playing with do the same. Additionally, force saber throw can be used since it is a force power, but essentially still a saber fighting maneuver. If you had played the mod for a longer amount of time rather than just trying it, you might understand. Then again, maybe you wouldn't. From your comments (e.g. "JK had auto saber blocking, and didn't consume any force, the way it should be.") it appears as though you are one of the JK/MOTS players who would just circle strafe all day and just want to constantly attack with all weapons and unlimited ammo and without having to think about tactics and mana-management (the uber-jedi). That gets boring really quick. Any moron can do that. That takes very little skill and gets boring very quickly. I think you'd need to play against some people who have played AOTL for a while to know (e.g. the Masters of the Lightsaber clan, who are clan that only plays with the AOTL mod). They don't run around using destruction all the time or grip, but rather try to make duels look cinematic.

 

3) What you are talking about in the books has nothing to do with saber duels. It has to do with reflecting blaster bolts.

 

No, using the force to block blaster shots happens, AS WELL AS using the force to block sabers. For instance, a Jedi is fighting a non-force sensitive person (i.e. 'normal'). The Jedi would not need to use the force because the 'normal' person probably has no training with a saber type weapon. No problem there. However, whenever a (dark) Jedi is fighting someone else who has a saber, odds are that the other person has some training with sabers and is force sensitive. A lot of times in such duels, the force-sensitive fighters are using the force to anticipate the other's moves and attacks. Thus, blocking an attack would 'cost' some mana/force power since the fighter is using the force to anticipate the attack. This happened when Luke fought Guri, the Yuuzhon Vong, etc. You must have forgotten those parts of the books if you had read them. So, I agree that a force-sensitive vs. a non-force-sensitive where both had sabers would not take mana/force power to block attacks. However, it is common for force-sensitives to utilize the force to augment their fighting while facing another force sensitive (like predicting attacks and augmenting one's offense/defense).

 

4) Since when do you need force to swing and block with the saber? JK had auto saber blocking, and didn't consume any force, the way it should be.

 

Well, since when a Jedi is blocking blaster bolts or is fighting another force-sensitve....that's when you need the force to block/attack. I just got done explaining that. Why should the blocking not cost mana? What you really mean when you say that it's "the way it should be", is it's the way YOU want it to be. As I said above, a Jedi (or anyone else for that matter) does not need the force to swing a saber. Anyone idiot can pick up a saber and swing it (Han cutting open the Tauntaun to keep Luke warm in ESB). However, it takes a force-sensitive person to block blaster bolts and to stand a chance against another force-sensitve in a saber duel. Think about what you are saying. If you don't want manual blocking because you want the game to be easier, just say so.

 

Irimi-Ai

[Irimi-Ai1587246519]

TRE LIGHTSHADOW:

 

The AOTL mod is anything BUT slow paced. You should try dueling some members from the Masters of the Lightsaber clan I mentioned in the previous post. I've dueled with a couple of them, and it is FAST, and it's not just strafing. There are many more attacks and moves...it is fast, believe me. Most of the moves are not complicated. The only ones you need to hold down the force saber fighting button are stab, evasive roll right, evasive roll left, and manual blocking (if you have it turned on). Only one attack, two evasions, and one defense use it. Not too complicated. It is, however, more complicated than the original JK system, which is the point. It takes more tactical thinking, skill, timing, and mana-management. For these reason, I find it to be much more fun and challenging. The original JK/MOTS gets so boring and repetitive. I also have the SBX mod, both for JK and for MOTS (there are differences to those who might be considering downloading them). In fact, I beta-tested the original MOTS version. I still use both the beta and the final release. Some things in the beta I like better, and some things in the final release I like better. Anyway, SBX is a great mod. I know you really like the SBX mod...that's twice now that you've mentioned it However, for challenge and variety, AOTL is better in my opinion.

 

Irimi-Ai

[Irimi-Ai1587246519]

Here's the link to all those who want to try the AOTL mod:

http://www.outpostd34.com/sandcrawler/saber/

 

Here's a list of features taken from their website, posted here so others can see if they want to even bother:

 

Heavy Slashes:

• Spinning slash

• Obi-Wan combo (torso slash-twirl-overhead)

• Overhead strike

• Upward slice (damages attackers in front and behind you)

• Twirling slash (direction-controlled: turn right - clockwise, turn left - counter clockwise)

• Heavy torso swing (direction-controlled)

• Crouching Z-swipe

 

 

 Miscellaneous Moves:

• Force Jump (new) - pressing FJ in mid-air makes you flip 1; when falling, holding down FJ will reduce fall damage according to rank

• Force Saber Fighting - allows enhanced saber tactics and moves, like saber stab

• Roll sideways (strafe and tap Force SF), an excellent evasive move

• New controllable blocking system - hold Force SF and hit the fire button in order to block attacks

• Taunt - flip the saber in your hand and yell a taunt to your opponent

 

 

 Other Stuff:

• 18 new Jedi skins, each with their own saber handle

• 10 of them are fully robed: pull off their hoods, and throw off their robes!

• 5-6 new deathmatch levels

• New animations for most Force powers (like Heal)

• Hold your saber handle with the blade off, allows quick surprise strikes

• Switch autoblock on\off through the gameplay menu (replaces lightsaber auto-cam)

 

Irimi-Ai

[Irimi-Ai1587246519]

Opps...sorry. I forgot the quick attacks. I knew there were more than that!!

 

 Quick Swings

• Standing swing combo (left-right-heavy chop)

• Quick diagonal-downward slash combo (right-left-right)

• Quick diagonal-upward slash combo (right-left)

• Quick torso swing (direction-controlled)

• Roll & slash

 

Irimi-Ai

[SlowbieOne]

First of all I have played AOTL enough to know it sucks badly. It is so slow paced it isn't even fun.

 

Second, NF sabers means exaclty what it sounds like: NO FORCE SABERS. Why make a useless force saber system for saber duels when you can make it just as interesting without force?

 

Third there was no way to have saber duels in JK without strafing unless you used a cheat cog or something, so you don't know what you are talking about. Are you one of those fools who just jumps around swinging?

 

Fourth, THIS IS JUST A GAME! Stop talking to me like an ass. I'm not gonna stoop to your level and insult you. The point of this message board is to express opinions, and talk about them, not insult someone when they disagree with you. Obviously you have some issues, so if you are gonna reply and want a reply from me, be nice. I'm grown up and whatever you say I can take, but I won't give you the satisfaction of answering you.

 

I was simply saying that there is no reason to compare AOTL with JO cause it's not even in the same ballpark.

[DeathBoLT]

The problem with manual blocking: a real jedi uses the force to predict where the saber is coming, where the blaster bolt shall strike.. theres only one problem with it though, in a video game:

 

We're not jedi. You can't forget that because, although a Jedi would have superhuman reflexes, we simply don't. The computer game must comphensate for it accordingly, and automatic blocking does that. Lets say that, we're walking out in the open and someone with a sniper rifle is drawing a bead on us. A Jedi would sense danger and defend agaisnt attack whereas someone without the force would get their face chewed off by blaster fire.

 

In this situation, either automatic blocking is neccessary, or some sort of force early alert system(along the lines of a 'spider sense') that warns us someone has us in their targeting brackets. One way or another, its crucial that Jedi abilties that real life humans can't have are comphensated for in the game.

 

I'm about to download AotLS mod right now to try it out

 

[ September 06, 2001: Message edited by: [eVe]DeathBoLT ]

[Irimi-Ai1587246519]

Slowbie:

 

Sorry if you took anything that I've written personally. I did not mean for you take anything personally. I re-read and re-read my posts, and I could only see two things that *might* be taken personally. Both times all I said was that "any moron/idiot can...". I'm not saying YOU are a moron or idiot, I was only saying that those two things were things that anyone can do. How that is insulting escapes me.

I thought we were discussing ideas. Yes, you disagreed with my opinions, and I disagreed with your reasons for disagreeing. That was why I was providing evidence from the books, movies, and my experience playing online as well as examples. If you took these personally, it was not my intention. You clearly did take them personally, though, as judged by the anger and hurt in your reply. If I remember correctly, you supported the idea of a manual blocking system. I agree with you, and only suggested that others try the mod to get a better idea about it. I'm aware that AOTL and JK2 aren't in the same ballpark, and never in my posts did I even try to suggest that they are. Again, if you thought I was comparing AOTL and JK2, I don't know where you got that from. I'm sorry you interpreted it that way. All I have said all along is that there was already a MOTS mod that utilized manual blocking, and suggested that people try it to get an idea about it and to provide proof that a manual block does not increase lag (even with JK's netcode).

Then you disagreed with/didn't like it using mana to block. All I did was provide reasons why I thought it was a good idea, why I liked it, and why it stayed with the continuity more. Then you started disagreeing with those and I provided evidence or examples because I didn't think your critiques were accurate and blah blah blah. The point is, we are more in agreement than disagreement. It would have been nice if you had noticed some agreement between us in your posts as I did in mine, rather than just disagreeing with everything I said.

 

Irimi-Ai

 

PS I'm really not one of those people who just jumps and swings, nor do I strafe all the time. It is possible to have saber duels without circle strafing all the time. I know because I have been in them before. I agree that you will never be in a duel that is not just circle strafing if you play on the zone (unless you get a MOTL room). However, that does not mean that it's impossible to have a saber duel that does not consist of cirlce strafing all the time. Just because you haven't seen one doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Much of it depends on who you play with and what they care about. I hardly ever play the zone because there it always is circle strafing because the people care about killing as many people as possible. That's pretty boring in my opinion. On the other hand,if you play with people who care more about making it look cinematic and move really fast (like the people I play with), cirlce strafing happens very rarely. I'm sure that you haven't played with people like this (there aren't many), so I must say that it is you who does not know what they are talking about...not me. So, it is possible, and don't assume that everyone who plays only cares about being the "winner" or the "best" and therefore just tries to rack up the most frags. Some people care about clever tactics and making it look smooth, cool, and like the movies.

[Irimi-Ai1587246519]

DeathBolt:

 

I mostly agree with you. The game does have to compensate for the differences between if we were real Jedi in the game world and between being a normal human in the real world merely playing a game (don't go all matrix on me...haha). I think a Jedi danger sense would be cool. MOTS tried it with scripted things like "I sense several beings nearby," but a cool danger sense would be really awesome. However, I don't think the way they resolved it was by automatic blocking. In most instances in JK or MOTS, you knew you were going to be shot at with enough time beforehand that you could have used a manual block if it was there. Also, automatic block would only work if you were facing the danger. The way I think they compensated for not having a danger sense was adding shields and allowing you to take several blaster shots with no shields before you die. To me, that was how it was solved. A portable shield generator for a Jedi? That's how they compensated for not having a danger sense. That way, you get shot when you don't see it coming, but you're not dead because you've got shields and health. But once you're hit, you know you're in trouble and you'd better do something. Sorta like a delayed danger senes. You find out when you're in danger when you are, rather than before hand. So, in JK you're walking and a sniper gets a bead on you. There is no danger sense and we don't have superhuman reflexes, and they don't want people to die too easily, so they add shields and lower the damage blasters do (several hits in the games vs. typically one or 2 hits in the movies). I'd love to see a danger sense replace shields in JK2, though, and also increase the damage blasters do...but also increase Kyle's accuracy while blocking blaster fire. Anyway, I completely agree that real life humans have to be compensated for the Jedi abilities that they don't have, but the character does. I just think that the main way it was solved was primarily via shields and lowered blaster damage, and secondarily through autoblock. I'm with you....danger sense would be lots better.

 

Irimi-Ai

[Tap[RR]]

The ONLY problem i had with aotl is finding fricken people online. Its a ***** to find someone online with the same mod, damn mots!! Also manual blocking (damn ive said this enough people!!) WOULD NOT cause huge amounts of lag, not with q3's netcode. But i kinda prefer the force being drained with blocking (they already said it drained mana) as long as it isnt a HUGE fricken amount of mana, should be a balanced amount. Oh, hey slowbie, were ya been! havent seen you on the zone in awhile, need someone thats actually knows how to play sbx right

[SlowbieOne]

I'll be playing later tonight probably. I'll be waiting inside the tree with my saber off... Watch your back!

[Myxale]

All i want to said ..was said before.

 

But i wont be bad if Raven decide to implement Staffs lik in the best mod for JK .

 

I think they choosen a GOod time.

 

The JK comumity ist one of the bigest; the editing networks are big too ,.. they know what the gamers want.

They only have to take a look on all the selfmade stuff.

 

[Guest Kurgan]

I see there are others with the power of "Force Long Post" around.. I must be cautious! ; )

 

I personally would love to see other lightsaber type weapons in this game, even if they are part of a "class based" type of thing or as weapon pickups. As long as it's balanced...

 

Kurgan

[Myxale]

Staffs...

well made and game balanced Staffs.

Would be cool, if some Level -Bosses ( if there will be good ones ( pleas not so lame like in JK) that are using Staffs or ex. sabers.))

 

I personaly think a game with Jedi-Knight as name, must get more focused on "Jedi"

 

And whats a jedi's Weapon.....the Saber

[Dae-Won Song]

A lot of people don't seem to realise a lot of people help lagging. They can't afford cable or DSL, or it just isn't available in their area (This problem is large in Australia).

 

Think about it... in Australia, Cable is around $50 - $60, and that's fair enough, but it's only available in a few capital cities. DSL is at least $100 a month, which is ridiculous. Especially for me, being to young for a job...