The Raven Comparrison

[toms]

i dunno about you guys, but those JKO shots don't look like anything like final version to me. If ypu look at the comparison with U2 shots the characters and weapons look pretty comparable, it is the texturing and lighting that is the main difference between the two, and also the main thing that makes the JKO levels look really flat. The tiling on some of those JKO textures looks like some of those (usually bad) levels made in JED a few years back.

 

This doesn't however have much to do with the engine, if you look at other Q3 engine games, their levels look much prettier, mainly due ot better texturing and more atmospheric lighting.. something they obviously haven't gotten around to yet..

give them a chance...

 

jpeg compression is a bit crap on these...

 

they might not be quite up to U2 standards (it is a new engine after all)... but they are still pretty nice.

[Agen]

How'd u do that stormhammer? I had posts before i saw any of yours (i never saw any) and now they're infront...

im ighth ave been worknig offline

oops but then i still saw raok's. anyway.

i have noticed the level design insn't as good as soem other q3 engines games..... hmmm maybe we shoudl give them a bit of time.

[CaptainRAVE]

There are some really nice looking JK2 levels which actually look better than the Unreal 2 ones.......like this one..... .....this sure is better than any other game I've played or seen previewed.

 

Also people keep saying about the plain textures.......well that just simply is star wars. I've never actually seen much detail on walls etc in star wars games anyway.

[wardz]

I think these dull levels help the lighsaber stand out. It is not very SW like either to have really nice looking places. Most locales are quite dingy, adds to the atmosphere IMO.

 

 

wardz

[StormHammer]

Hmmm...I'm not sure about lots of simple textures in Star Wars. A lot of things have that worn look, covered in dirt, grime, dents and scratches. Of course, a lot of environments are also clean and subtle. So as long as there's a mixture (as I'm sure there will be), I can't see much of a problem.

[X-Vector]

Originally posted by StormHammer:

<STRONG>Hmmm...I'm not sure about lots of simple textures in Star Wars. A lot of things have that worn look, covered in dirt, grime, dents and scratches. Of course, a lot of environments are also clean and subtle. So as long as there's a mixture (as I'm sure there will be), I can't see much of a problem. </STRONG>

 

You have brought up a good point here, StormHammer.

One of the aspects that sets the Star Wars universe apart from the rest of the scifi world is the 'used' look that features prominent throughout the movies.

SW is not squeaky clean and antiseptic a la Star Trek, it's down to earth, human, bruised and battered in places.

This is the one thing that I feel Raven still has to grasp to ensure the game looks 'right'.

With all the pimping of the Q3 engine in this thread, I'd still like to see the first id powered game that features the 'dirty' look that Unreal engine games have shown. One example being UT, take a look at its rocketlauncher to see what I mean, another is the upcoming Duke Nukem Forever, which clearly shows the effect in the texturing of the chainsaw in the Area51 screenshot (FYI this is 2 year old footage).

[Kwup]

that's only because George Lucas was poor when he was filming it

[madrebel]

Originally posted by X-Vector:

<STRONG>

 

You have brought up a good point here, StormHammer.

One of the aspects that sets the Star Wars universe apart from the rest of the scifi world is the 'used' look that features prominent throughout the movies.

SW is not squeaky clean and antiseptic a la Star Trek, it's down to earth, human, bruised and battered in places.

This is the one thing that I feel Raven still has to grasp to ensure the game looks 'right'.

With all the pimping of the Q3 engine in this thread, I'd still like to see the first id powered game that features the 'dirty' look that Unreal engine games have shown. One example being UT, take a look at its rocketlauncher to see what I mean, another is the upcoming Duke Nukem Forever, which clearly shows the effect in the texturing of the chainsaw in the Area51 screenshot (FYI this is 2 year old footage).</STRONG>

 

fyi, that "2 year old shot" is even older than that. That is from the E3 footage in i beleive 96 or 97 which was using the quake1 engine at the time. They didnt make the switch to the UT engine until late 98 early 99.

 

Name one other unreal engine game that looked "dirty".

 

I can name a few quake series games that looked "dirty" kingpin being the most notable. Soldier of Fortune, hell SoF2 looks very gritty.

 

Unreal looks so cartoony. Dues Ex was a decently "gritty" game. But i cant think of much else that had the dirty feel.

[jipe]

quality maps brother. JK had very few quality maps/mappers. I personally thin JED was weak ive talked with may other mappers who think the same thing. So far its many opinions vs yours.

fact no opinion yes.

 

fact though is user created maps in JK for the most part were horrible.

 

Did you even bother READING my post? There are tens of thousands more people in the Quake community - the PERCENTAGE of QUALITY maps to overall RELEASED maps is pretty much the same, but the NUMBER (total) of quality maps is higher in the Quake community because there's so many more authors/levels.. it all averages out. That, and q3 was a much more popular game, which means more talent drifts to it.. it has almost nothing to do with the editor itself.

 

Everyone I know who's actually experienced with using JED swears by it. Brush editing is more intuitive than negative-space, but JED is entirely more flexible.

 

No, that's not a FACT that most user created maps weren't of too high quality. That is a straight up OPINION, and although I agree with you, you're confusing fact and opinion.

 

Two quotes:

 

acdcfanbill: "just the tinkering with JED i did was really difficult and confusing... never really did get the hang of it"

 

h0rb (hebedee): "i agree with jipe. in my vast editing experience, JED is - by far - the most versatile and functionally capable editor out there."

[Kwup]

ya right, JED is by far the worst map editor I have ever used

 

I never learned it after trying FOREVER

 

I learned and made my first UT lvl within 2 weeks of playing with UnrealED

 

Same thing with Worldcraft (Half-Life)

[Guest ZeroXcape]

RaoK: I agree, JK editing isn't a breeze. As far as JK editing goes though, there are only a few options at hand. Any can pick up Worldcraft after two minutes of playing with the editor, but JED takes a bit longer to master.

 

If you like editing q3, you'll be right at home with the JKII editor.

[Agen]

But remember jk was a,de in 97. q3 radiant is quite new. easier tehnology

[X-Vector]

Originally posted by madrebel:

<STRONG>fyi, that "2 year old shot" is even older than that. That is from the E3 footage in i beleive 96 or 97 which was using the quake1 engine at the time. They didnt make the switch to the UT engine until late 98 early 99.

</STRONG>

 

Nope, sorry to disappoint you but that screenshot was released in November '99, it is part of a batch of ten shots with one more to follow the month after (the DamGuide shot).

Also, 3DR switched to the Unreal engine earlier than you mention, immediately after E3 (May) '98 to be exact.

 

Name one other unreal engine game that looked "dirty".

 

Undying.

 

I can name a few quake series games that looked "dirty" kingpin being the most notable. Soldier of Fortune, hell SoF2 looks very gritty.

 

Kingpin definitely (a Xatrix/Gray Matter trademark it seems), SoF maybe, SoF 2 no way (not yeat at least).

Actually, it's funny you should mention that last game because I remember a discussion on that very topic over in the SoF 2 forum a couple of weeks ago and I wan't the only one to use terms such as "clinical" and "antiseptic" when desribing the look of that game's screenshots.

I see a big similarity between the two Raven games in this respect, both seem to feature high quality weapon designs, decidedly above average player (enemy) models, but very sparse and 'clean' environments.

This more or less made sense for Elite Force, but I wouldn't want JKO to have the same look if it can be helped (this is one of my worries, that the game will feel like an EF mod - I hope Raven will do what it can to avoid that).

 

Unreal looks so cartoony. Dues Ex was a decently "gritty" game. But i cant think of much else that had the dirty feel.

 

On the contrary, Unreal looks sharp, vibrant and 'realistic' compared to Quake 2 (its closest id rival at the time) with its relatively blurry and fuzzy textures and drab orange/brown colour palette.

[madrebel]

Originally posted by X-Vector:

<STRONG>

 

On the contrary, Unreal looks sharp, vibrant and 'realistic' compared to Quake 2 (its closest id rival at the time) with its relatively blurry and fuzzy textures and drab orange/brown colour palette.</STRONG>

 

well, let me say something i neglected. Q2 had great......brown....graphics i never liked q2 graphics.

But saying unreal looked more "realistic" i cant agree with that. I mean any game that features a gun whos slogan should be "when you absolutely have to cut off your own head right now" (the ripper claw bouncy blade gun rmemeber? ) should never have the word "realistic" anywhere near it .

 

also anyone who uses duke "taking" forever in an argument is automatically docked 5 argument point

[jipe]

ya right, JED is by far the worst map editor I have ever used

I never learned it after trying FOREVER

 

I learned and made my first UT lvl within 2 weeks of playing with UnrealED

 

Same thing with Worldcraft (Half-Life)

 

No map editor, least of all JED, can compensate for incompetence.. and as I said before, brush editing is much more intuitive. It's a lot easier going from negative space to brushes, rather than the other way around.

[X-Vector]

Originally posted by madrebel:

<STRONG>But saying unreal looked more "realistic" i cant agree with that. I mean any game that features a gun whos slogan should be "when you absolutely have to cut off your own head right now" (the ripper claw bouncy blade gun rmemeber? ) should never have the word "realistic" anywhere near it .

</STRONG>

 

I think it should be pretty obvious I wasn't using the word 'realistic' in that way, it was merely a way of describing the difference in visual splendour between the two games.

 

About that DNF remark, he who laughs last laughs best and I'm absolutely sure I will be the one laughing last.

[Kwup]

ya so what will be out first?

 

Team Fortress 2 or Duke Nukem Forever?

[madrebel]

Originally posted by X-Vector:

<STRONG>

 

I think it should be pretty obvious I wasn't using the word 'realistic' in that way, it was merely a way of describing the difference in visual splendour between the two games.

 

About that DNF remark, he who laughs last laughs best and I'm absolutely sure I will be the one laughing last.</STRONG>

 

hehe i didnt say duke wouldnt be a good game................................................................................................................................................................................ .................................................................................................................................................................................... .................................................................................................................................................................................... ....................................................when it comes out.

[Sifl]

Originally posted by CaptainRAVE:

<STRONG>I personally think they should have waited and brought JK2 out on the Quake 4 engine, at least that way it would be able to stand up against the likes of Unreal 2 and Max Payne.</STRONG>

 

Um, are you nuts? Max Payne looked about the same as Half-Life, to me...

 

Wait for Quake 4? Raven is doing Quake 4, and they're already working on 2 projects, so they probably haven't even started Quake 4! And they can't start Quake 4 until Doom 3 is done, which means at least another year. Then Quake 4 takes two years after that... then Jedi Knight 2 would take a year or two after that. Are you really saying that they should have waited until 2006 to release Jedi Knight 2 just so you can get a few more polys? And you know what, if they did, you'd be saying they should have waited for Doom 5.

 

Please, people really need to get over this silly tendancy to think that the next big thing is always better. I'd rather have a good game now that's fun than wait 5 years for a game that's got no gameplay because all their time was spent on new technology.

 

No offense, CaptainRAVE, just a pet peeve of mine.

[Sifl]

Originally posted by CaptainRAVE:

<STRONG>Actually Max Paynes specs will be higher than JK2. Remember Max Payne uses a newer engine than the Quake 3 one.

 

...just about run it best graphics.</STRONG>

 

Just because it's newer doesn't mean it's better. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Max Payne had extremely low-poly environments and had *nothing at all* that Q3 didn't have. And Q3 has multiplayer. Just because it doesn't run as well as Q3 on your machine doesn't mean it's a better engine, it means it's a *worse* engine.

[Sifl]

Originally posted by RaoK:

<STRONG>now lets do a REAL comparison...

 

nobody, and I mean nobody can say JKII is #1 in the visuals department, so I sure hope it out performs U2 in the gameplay area or we have a sleeper here.</STRONG>

 

Here we go again... Unreal II has been in development longer than JK2. And you purposely chose the worst-looking JK2 screenshot you could find. That level is obviously unfinished.

 

For all we know, Unreal 2 could turn into Duke Nukem Forever or Prey or Daikatana or Team Fortress 2 and not come out for many years to come.

 

And, besides (do I have to say it again?) who really cares? Unreal II will look like crap compared to games released a year or two after it, but does that mean it's not worth playing and that you won't buy it?

[Sifl]

Originally posted by StormHammer:

<STRONG>If Raven can deliver an SP game with a strong story, and 20+ hours of varied and challenging gameplay, with lots of choices in how to play, and a great MP to boot, I think it will stand the test of time like it's predecessor. </STRONG>

 

Exactly... how many people here remember that, when the original JK came out, it's graphics were terrible compared to other games of the time (like Quake 2 and Unreal), yet it was game of the year for its gameplay. And maybe there's a reason for that... the more time you spend on new technology and making the game look beutiful, the less time you have to make sure the game is fun.

[Guest Celestial]

Focus on gameplay not pretty map graphics. Those are only a plus.

[Dante1587246514]

Originally posted by RaoK:

<STRONG>...unreal engine > q3 engine

 

many will dispute that, but I stand by my decision. why is that you say? because I'm a biased jerk who likes arguing, why else?

 

anyways, I believe that the Dark Age of Camelot engine is better, thousands of people, great graphics, not as fast but just as good or better

 

or what about the Tribes 2 engine? sure T2 sucked and Dynamix didn't do a good job with their engine, but you gotta admit 64 people at one time with little net lag = good</STRONG>

 

im sure you've heard enough about the unreal and camelot engines...the T2 engine is the worst ive come across...have you seen the system specs for that beast?!? its not practical for a SP FPS...with losts of detail and wanting to appeal to a mass market...not everyone has a ninja pc...so your argument to a lil faulty...give me an engine that everyone can use or play with near enough no probs...

[X-Vector]

Originally posted by Sifl:

<STRONG>Um, are you nuts? Max Payne looked about the same as Half-Life, to me...

</STRONG>

 

It sure looks to me that *you* are the strange one in this discussion.

I've played bits of both Half-Life and Max Payne this week and to say that MP isn't far above HL in the visual department is incomprehensible.

In fact, when I played MP for the first time and came across the laboratory part (the one that is rigged with explosives) where I saw the white coat scientists I wondered how cool it would be if Half-Life looked that good.

Make no mistake, I acknowledge that HL is the far superior game overall and that perhaps for its time it was even more visually impressive (its world design is phenomenal IMO, just like that of JK mostly is), but it just isn't able to compete head to head with the top of the range current generation MP engine.

 

Just because it doesn't run as well as Q3 on your machine doesn't mean it's a better engine, it means it's a *worse* engine.

 

It would be, if Max Payne's visuals were worse or at best on a par with those of vanilla Q3, but they aren't.

One other thing to take into account, people that say Q3 runs well on their machines will have either pretty powerful PCs or don't run the game at maximum quality, you'll need a 64MB video card to achieve good framerates at 32-bit colour depth and with max texture detail.

RTCW and even Elite Force have substantially higher system demands than Q3 BTW, it would be better to compare Max Payne's (and JKO's) performance to those games I'd say.