The War Against Terrorism...

[toms]

Originally posted by Wilhuf:

<STRONG>TomS you really need to think about why there is a movement to reduce restrictions on wiretaps and increase security measures, such as identification checks. Could it be that this is a necessary response to the most massive and destructive attack on US soil in its history?</STRONG>

 

What i am saying, if you were listening, is that by reducing personal freedoms to counter terorism, we are actually handing a victory to the terrorists.

 

Originally posted by Wilhuf:

<STRONG>If only we had better wire tapping before September 11. More stringent identification checks. Better airport security. Better followup with INS watchlists. ...So many 'if onlys.' </STRONG>

 

great...i am sure that having my email tapped and being forced to carry an id card would hve stopped those attacks... o actually hang on a minute... that would have made no difference whatsoever.

 

Originally posted by Wilhuf:

<STRONG>TomS do you know whether any of the more than six thousand men, women, and children killed on September 11th actively funded the IRA?</STRONG>

 

did i say any did? no. would they have deserved to die if they did? no. what i was saying is that it just slightly sticks in my throat that te rest of the world has been suffering terrorist attacks on there home soil for years (uk, spain, russia etcc.) but suddenly as soon as there is one in the US the whole world is supposed to realise we are in some new era of terror or something. yeah right.

 

Originally posted by Wilhuf:

<STRONG>Here's a partial list of the victims. How about you name a few names of those who apparently 'deserved it.'</STRONG>

 

 

oh come on now... i always thought you were slightly more mature than that. did i say anyome "deserved to die"? not that i remember... ican't even see how what i said could be even loosely construed as mean that.

 

my points were... (1) america should try looking at WHY people were willing to die, to kill etc.. to attack them, and why they are sen as an enemy by a lot of the world. HOw can you fight/prevent something if you don't even try to understand it?

 

(2) that they seem to be in danger of both repeatig any mistakes they made earlier, escalating the situation and giving the terrorists another victory by making them heroes to a lot ofthe world and reducing the personal freedom of the rest ofthe world's citizens.

 

(3) this is a big, dramatic, almost unreal attack, but it isn't the first such attack. It was totally predictable it was going to happen in some way at some time.

 

(4)(probably selfish on my part) I don't like being thought of as an enemy by people i heve never met, and my country has had no direct involvement with just because half the world seems to see the UK as an american poodle or something.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by nykel:

<STRONG>Peolple I just had to say something. Frist and foremost I agree that the persons who organised this attacks should be brought to justice. But the means by which this is done is my concern. Guns, bombs etc I say no. If we're not careful we'll have a full global war on our hands.</STRONG>

 

Sorry, but we already have a full global war on our hands. There are wars everywhere on this planet, some justifiable, others not, and they've been going on for many years. Terrorist attacks have been going on for many, many decades around the world - and many, many thousands of people have already died as a result.

 

Many countries have already been waging a war against terrorism, but the problem has been a lack of unity around the world. Now we're starting to get there, and like it or not, military force is one of many ingredients that must be used.

 

I live in the UK, and all my life I've heard of one terrorist atrocity after another. Even came close to being a victim once - remember the horse guards who were bombed and killed by the IRA in London? I was taking a close-up photo of them around the same vicinity, one week before they died. I felt physically sick when I heard that news. Only providence has allowed that myself and my loved ones have come to no injury so far.

 

There has already been political action to try and come to a common agreement regarding the IRA - but now we have a splinter group called the Real IRA continuing the killing campaign. These people are not interested in any resolution of their conflict. They only wish to harm others, and will find any reason to do so.

 

I'm not saying military action is the only remedy - but in this instance I feel it is entirely justified. Yes, it must be targeted to minimise the risk of killing innocents. On the other hand, I believe it is almost impossible to pick out every terrorist from the crowd. They don't go around wearing signs, after all, and it is very difficult to link specific people to specific attacks.

 

So, if you can't provide all the evidence needed, are you just going to do nothing, and wait for the next attack to see if that provides you with more evidence? Sorry, but I think that's totally ridiculous.

 

Bin Laden declared war against America and it's allies, and considers it a Holy right to kill both military and civilians without distinction. He also craves weapons of mass destruction, such as nuclear weapons, and will use them without thought or care of the consequences. He, and people like him, cannot be reasoned with. The Taleban (whom I have always considered to be terrorists themselves for what they do to the Afghan people) has chosen to protect him.

 

Let them now suffer the consequences.

 

As for innocent Afghans, yes, the international community has an obligation to try and assist them (as our Prime Minister Tony Blair has just this moment stated on a news bulletin) - to give them food, shelter, and whatever other aid they need in the trying times ahead. And to allow them to choose their own government, and no longer be ruled by fear of death.

 

I used to be a pacifist myself, but preaching love and peace in the face of monsters achieves nothing. After three decades of watching death and destruction, I can no longer take that stance.

 

If you come across a rabid dog, do you try and reason with it? No, you put it down. Do you let the guy down the street keep a hundred such beasts in his garden? No, you take action to stop him.

 

So it should be in the fight against terrorism.

 

I apologise in advance if I offend anyone in what I have posted. I am simply expressing the way I feel...and those feelings are quite strong. ;-)

[nykel007]

A lot to read. As you said unity, that the thing that will solve everything. But you don't solve a thing with guns, man! Might it be that it is the only language they know, but there has to be an alternative. On the war issue. When I mean global war, it's like the conflict in the Balkins, where I live we never really much gave thought to that isssue. In our present sit. this could reach even small TnT. Why, cause there is a terror net that spans the globe. This situation could make WW2 look like small fry.

[Wilhuf]

The US has fairly good intelligence on Al Qaeda's motives. Understanding why Al Qaeda wants to aribitrarily kill Christans and Jews will not stop them from doing so. After all, the US is the main donor of foreign aid to Afghanistan . Did that appease the Taliban and Al Qaeda? No.

 

te rest of the world has been suffering terrorist attacks on there home soil for years

And so has the US. Americans have been targets of terrorism abroad for decades. Terrorism is not new to Americans. Just because terrorism occurs outside of US soil doesn't mean Americans haven't suffered. For instance, many Americans were killed the bombings in Beirut, Kenya, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen.

 

we are in some new era of terror or something. yeah right.

 

Yeah, it is right. No terrorist attack on this scale has ever been conducted on any country at any time in history.

 

great...i am sure that having my email tapped and being forced to carry an id card would hve stopped those attacks... o actually hang on a minute... that would have made no difference whatsoever.

 

So, basically, toms, you expect security, but without sacrificies in personal freedoms. Sorry, that isn't how the real world works.

 

Yes, toms, you're right that the terrorists 'won' a round in the sense that now we are going to have to give up some freedoms from investigation, freedoms from search, etc. in exchange for security. That is why George Bush referred to the terrorist attacks as 'attacks on freedom.'

 

[ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Wilhuf ]

[nykel007]

Consider this senerio, our new colition againist terrorism talks and then strikes Afgan. Then say some evidence surfaces blaming someoneelse for the attacks, then what? That's why I saying the big boys should tread carefully in this situation.

[Wilhuf]

So, it turns out that our level-headed US government officials do indeed consider the nuclear option in this war on terrorism. A snippet from the Washington Post article:

 

The Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on Washington and New York have invigorated national security strategists inside and outside the government who favor using nuclear arms to deter and respond to chemical or biological attacks.

 

Conservatives outside the administration have been calling on the administration to make an explicit threat to use nuclear weapons to respond to a biological or chemical attack. This would change a long-standing U.S. policy of refusing to rule in or rule out use of nuclear weapons in the event of such an attack.

 

So far, at least, senior Bush administration officials have maintained this policy of deliberate ambiguity, though some administration figures appear to be sympathetic to a change that would entail a more specific threat.

[toms]

Oh well... it doesn't matter much now. Looks like they have made there minds up how they are gonna handle it. We will see how much more secure the world is in a year or two. Sadly i think it will be less so, but then i am no expert.

 

Good to see that in a few days they have only so far managed to kill 4 UN workers, pretty good friendly fire ratio for the US military so far. And only anti-us demonstrations in 15 or so countries...i feel safer already

[Guest Kurgan]

Here's a couple of good articles I read recently on nationalreview:

 

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-lindsay092801.shtml

 

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-robbins100801.shtml

 

Much of these political theories actually gel well with some of my own ideas about why this #@*$&^ happens. If you see the video series "The Occult History of the Third Reich" (check IMDB.com for details) it shows a similar situation in Germany in the 1930's. I doubt this war on terrorism will ever be won, but if we do things right, it could seriously diminish the future breeding grounds for other Bin Laden-wannabes.

 

Anyway, it's only human nature to be more upset when your home is bombed than when a stranger you can't see has their home bombed, nobody can argue against that. Everybody who's been a victim of terrorism has a right to be angry, obviously.

 

I guess my concern is, let's say we topple the Taliban, let's say we defeat Al Qaeda. What's next? I think that we should take a look at how we handled the situation with Japan after their defeat in WWII, and contrast that with how Germany was treated after WWI, etc, and compare to this situation, at least in principle.

 

I think we would have a golden opportunity to set things right. Do this wrong, and we're just going to lay the groundwork for another terrorist network to form in their place, under a new banner.

 

That's how I see it anyway...

 

Kurgan

[Wilhuf]

What's next after Al Qaeda and Taliban are dead and buried? Probably a 'military solution' to Iraq...

 

Problem is, if we try to implement a 'Marshall Plan' for Afghanistan, whom will receive the aid? How much and in what form? And to what end? Will Afghanis suddenly experience the 'economic miracle' that Germany enjoyed following WWII?

 

Well before September 11, the US was the main donor of foreign aid to Afghanistan. 4 million of the 27 million Afghanis receieved food from the US. Clearly the level of aid given was insufficient tribute to 'bribe' Afghanistan into ending its harboring of Al Qaeda. I suppose the US could simply give more aid, and take more serious steps at 'developing' Afghanistan.

 

Although when one considers that a huge proportion of Afghanistan's existing transportation infrastructure was created directly by the Americans and Russians, I am somewhat skeptical.

[Guest Krayt Tion]

File this article under miscellaneous.

 

//Snip

 

Diversity of opinion is key at a time when our nation is caught up in the drumbeat of patriotism, when what passes for media coverage is the sound of sameness. If diversity is what makes America strong, we should tolerate diverse points of view.

[Hito-Kage]

Okay Being an American I have a few things to say.

 

1) TomS has a point. To me its no wonder why other countries hate us, especially Religeous countries such as Afgan. Countries around the World view us by what they see in the media. They see the music we listen to the see the movies we whatch they see Corrupt Leaders doing dispicable thngs(CLinton Scandle). All they see in the US is a very Large amount of people who have no values or morals.

So they think all the people in the US are like that. And the sad part is most of us are. We are selfish, we think that it doesn't matter what we do as long as it does not hurt anybody else, In our country Divorce rates are skyrocketting.We are one of the Leading Countries in abortion.Marital affairs are up, Our picture that is painted by other countries of the US arent Very pretty. But that is no reason to attack The US Killing thousands of people.

 

2) Nothing can Change what has happened, its what will happen now that is of most Impotantce.

 

"A Government should not mobilize an army out of anger,military leaders should not provoke war out of wrath.Act when it is beneficial,desist if it is not.Anger can revert to joy, wrath can revert to delight, but a nation destroyed cannot be restored to existance, and the dead cannot be restored to life. Therfore an enlightened government is careful about this, a good military leadership is alert to this. This is the way to secure a nation and keep the armed forces whole".

-Sun Tzu, The Art of War

 

I beleive our country needs to re-discover its true American heritage. Our country was given to us by God and it is him who we have turned our backs on. All I see these days are American flags saying In God we trust. But is it God we trust or is it our Military we truly trust. I believe us Americans need to take a second look at the way we have lived our lives and come to the place that other countries will not only look at us as the only remaining super power in the world, but a country who has the righteous love and protection of allmighty God.