Jedi Knotes #3 !

[Agen]

There was always 3 sides... dark,light,neutral powers so i u copuld have both but not the best of both

[StarScrap]

While it's true that Mr. Lightguy Jediman not being able to throw stuff is a bit iffy, it doesn't really need to be true. It's possible that light people can also use the first x number of dark powers, and dark people could also use the first x number of light powers. It's even possible that 'x' would be modified by the number of light vs. dark powers you have (the whole spectrum from JK). That way your light master could throw stuff, but couldn't blow the dark master sky high. Either that or you could put the force powers along the spectrum and you can only use powers a certain 'distance' from where you are on the spectrum.

 

Also the splitting of force powers seems to have the same purpose as classes in RPGs. Asking for force powers to be split seems a lot like wishing you could have an all-class character. (Man, I REALLY wish my cleric could backstab, and my monk could use the Double Bitted Axe of Brute Force with No Finesse, and my sorcerer could have 9 billion hitpoints and wear plate mail)

[Slonn]

You see, Yoda tells you a lot about the force, but really, he didn't tell you enough. If you wade into it enough, you'll see that most Force 'techniques' are the use of telekinesis, or as Vagabond put it, remote manipulation.

 

The Force, I assume, is like tangible object that a Jedi can manipulate to a certain degree. This opinion is reinforced by the so-called 'tremors' in the Force, when Ben nearly faints from Alderaan's destruction. This removes a great chunk of space to be filled and causes the tremors they feel as the Force rushes in to fill the space. Vader's popular asphyxiation technique is just a squeezing of the trachea. In the New Jedi Order books, the older trainee's joke about how to kill an enemy, and one suggest you apply a little pressure to a cranial artery through the Force as Skywalker listens, dismayed.

 

Another point is heavy manipulation of the Force. In one of the comic-books, the Holocron states that a Sith once crashed two stars together. The utter power can only be explained by either a gathering of force energy between the stars which has such immense gravity that they are drawn together, or a 'pushing' towards each other. How would this affect the 'web' - akin to a spider's web, where the slightest brush can set off the spider - of the Force?

 

Force 'Destruction' and 'Lightning' are just masses of energy - heavy concentrations of Force - controlled by the user. These could be used by either light or dark... It is the intention and the feelings of the one doing so which distinguishes him/her as a Jedi or Sith. Luke uses a similar technique to Destruction on the Eye of Palpatine to disable a security grid, but he didn't become a dark jedi.

 

However, this leaves to be explained things like mind tricks. Is it a stimulus of lobes in the brain, altering electric pathways, causing the mind to think and sense differently? Or is it something else? How does Force 'Speed' work? Is it an alteration to the brain which releases more adrenaline, or a telekinetic push?

 

I'm going to confront the fact that I sound like a geek now.

 

Always the best,

 

-Slonn

[digl]

Welcome to the forums Slonn

 

you are right on most of what you say, except you dont breath through the esophagus

Im not sure how Its called in english tho

its traquea in spanish

[Slonn]

Trachea in English. The distinction is so narrow, even I forget it sometimes. I edited for your viewing pleasure.

 

You guys sure are friendly, welcoming every new register. When do I get my chocolate Jedi medallion?

[digl]

about mind tricks, maybe you send a message to the midichlorians of the other person, and those are able to change someones behavior

I say this just to try to find an explanation

 

and only people who cant contact midichlorians con be affected, because people who can communicate with them cant be affected by them

 

Im just rambling

 

I just noted your edit

 

as soon as stormhammer comes around

Boba rhett should give you an official gift basket

[StormHammer]

Welcome to the forums, Slonn. Hope you enjoy your stay.

 

*hands over a chocolate Jedi Medallion*.

 

There you go.

 

Yes, I have always associated Force powers with telekinesis in one form or another. There are certain attributes of the Force, however, that are not as readily explained, as you pointed out. Although you have a decent theory regarding Force Speed.

[Slonn]

Thank you for the medallion.

 

If I ever get a job, I want to be a theorist or a stock broker. Either way, you have to be 100% wrong to be fired!

 

The 'Force as a tangible object' theory is just something I cooked up in a roleplaying sequence back in 1998-99, when my character (a wise old Jedi leader), taught some of his students about the Force.

[StarScrap]

It seems to me that Slonn's current argument for letting light jedi use dark powers is that they COULD because they're all just manifestations of the same manipulations used for everything else. However, the reason I see for not letting them use those particular manifestations is they WOULDN'T. How many of you can envision Luke using lightning to kill some stormies slowly? I don't see it that easily. Back to my RPG argument, sure a druid could poison daggers, pick locks, and steal, but he wouldn't, and therefore the game doesn't let him. It's just the games way of trying to keep you a little more in character.

 

You say that you could use force destruction to take out a security grid? Sure. Use lighting to power a generator? Sure. If the game were an unlimited world that was governed by its rules of physics and nothing else. Unfortunately, it is, like so many other games, a game. The only use for lightning and destruction in JK (as far as I know) is to kill, and therefore the light side can't use them.

[Slonn]

Well, then it represents an opportunity to expand the game to a degree which would draw many new players who are grasping for the kind of virtual reality where you can break everything, use all you skills to overcome obstacles, etc.

 

For example, if JK2 had an area where you had to sneak past a network of security cameras, and the only way to short them out is to conduct an enormous amount of electrical energy into them with force 'lightning'. First you could Force 'pull' the security case off the circuitry junction and then target it with force lightning to short them out.

 

Being able to use a certain manifestation of the force isn't what determines the shade, if you will, of a Jedi. The intentions and feelings of the Jedi//Sith performing the act is the key factor.

 

If JK2 were a fully thought out world, like Deus Ex, where there are hundreds of possibilities to pass this security grid and open that door, I would expect more people would enjoy the game. However, the 'return to JK' style is intriguing, because I always loved JK. But running around rambo-style doesn't seem to be very... Jedi.

[Slonn]

However, I'm not saying they should radically change JK2 for us elite few who like the thought out environment. JK2 is still going to be my favourite game for a good amount of time.

[StarScrap]

You have a good point about the security pannel, but I don't see how they'd let you do that while keeping you from frying the baddies. Maybe having how you use it affect your light/dark side, and then have that affect other stuff in the game.

[Vagabond]

StarScrap, to answer your question regarding whether Luke would use Force Lightning, if we are to believe the Expanded Universe - and let's recall that JKII is also a part of the Expanded Universe - he did far worse than that. He actually turned to the Dark Side, wreaking havoc on a scale similar to his father's, before Leia turned him back to the Light.

 

But this game isn't about Luke, it's about Kyle Katarn, who is clearly neither a beacon of the Light Side, nor a Dark Side toady. He's best classified as a Fallen Jedi, who has forsaken his Force-sensitive heritage due to his unresolved conflict in dealing with the Light and Dark Sides.

 

Jedi Knight allowed Kyle to choose a path, Light or Dark. Mysteries of the Sith allowed Kyle to combine both, starting him down that gray, twilight path where both the Light and Dark are in balance.

 

While the events following Mysteries of the Sith are yet to unfold, it seems as though Kyle has resigned himself to a self-imposed exile from the Force. To protect him or others, that chapter is yet to be revealed. What we do know is that Kyle did use Force Lightning, did use Force Grip, did use Force Heal, did use Force Absorb. He used the most powerful elements from both sides of the Force spectrum, and this rich story demands continuity.

 

While I believe that history clearly demonstrates that Kyle Katarn was a "Gray Jedi", let us abstract the discussion a bit, and examine the nexus of this debate: that only Light Jedi use the so-called Light side of the Force, while only Dark Jedi/Sith use the so-called Dark side.

 

While it is true that the Jedi practice a discipline that emphasizes serenity and defense, sometimes the best defense is a good offense, as emphasized by them weilding a weapon capable of cleaving body parts and turning a blast door to slag. They key is that these more aggressive behaviors are used as a last result, and more importantly are not used in anger. Therefore I can see using Force Lightning as a perfectly legitimate tactic, say against a platoon of hostile Battle Droids. Jedi would be foolish to not study these more offensive powers, but only by the most accomplished and least temptable Jedi.

 

But let's look at the other side of the equation, because I think this is where the whole light-only / dark-only argument really falls apart. The whole premise behind being of the Dark Side, is that you're so power hungry that you can't tolerate all the discipline and meditation that Jedi are expected to master before advancing further in their Force training. So the eager Jedi turns to the Dark side, because it's faster, more seductive, and in the end becomes corrupted. Given that one's so ambitiously power-hungry for Force knowledge that one forsakes the Jedi Order, do you seriously think that once a Jedi has embraced the darkness, that he'll go, "Hmmm, I must be sure I don't practice anymore of those Light Side powers. They're strictly off limits to me, even if they would prove useful to me"? Heck no! That's the whole point of turning to the Dark Side - to become as powerful with the Force, as quickly as possible.

 

So just for the sake of argument, let's assume that Jedi never learn so-called Dark Side powers, which I don't believe is the case. You can bet the bank that the so-called Dark Jedi/Sith wouldn't have the slightest hesitation about learning so-called Light Side powers. For this reason alone, I don't buy the whole Force power segregation argument.

[Slonn]

Originally posted by StarScrap

You have a good point about the security pannel, but I don't see how they'd let you do that while keeping you from frying the baddies. Maybe having how you use it affect your light/dark side, and then have that affect other stuff in the game.

 

Well, if we had a dynamic universe like JediKnight had - to some degree, anyway - where how you use your force powers and what you kill determines your status - Jedi or Sith.

 

So, if you used your Lightning on a friendly trooper to kill him for the fun of it, you would get a tremendous drop into the Dark Side. If you used it to kill an enemy trooper, you would get a not-so-dramatic drop. However, if you used Lightning to disable a security grid and sneak past the trooper, you would get a boost to the Jedi side. It can't possibly be hard to program something like that.

 

If I wanted to play my perfect game, I would be saving up my force energy for big battles with bosses and dealing with things like security grids, kind of like getting through Deus Ex, sneaker style. Of course, I would be searching for every secret and trying to get all the powerups possible, while collecting ammo and storing it. However, JediKnight - and likely JK2 as well - didn't promote this kind of gameplay.

[Slonn]

Also, the fact that a Dark Jedi uses certain powers doesn't neccessarily mean they are Dark Side powers.

 

For instance, Darth Maul uses Push on Obi-Wan in Ep-1, but it is described as a neutral power in JK.

[StarScrap]

I considder myself thoroughly slapped.

 

Actually i was thinking the same thing myself, but it does kill the argument. I still think that the separation is a good idea though, even if it is a bit untrue to the world. Provides a certain "either/or" choice that I like. And the "i know what he has as soon as he uses one thing" could be remedied by more powers for either side.

 

And Slonn, I don't THINK we were saying that anything a Dark Jedi used was evil.

[Slonn]

It was brought up somewhere earlier in the argument.

 

What Vagabond said was just reiterating my posts. What a Jedi//Sith becomes is based on how he does things, not on what Force powers he uses.

 

If Kyle were a 'gray Jedi' - by Vagabond's defintion - he'd become the proverbial uber-jedi. He would have no seductions to the dark side and no strenuous connections to the opposite. He couldn't be consumed by evil, but he could still use the powers which would normally do that to a Jedi, and vice versa.

[Vagabond]

Slonn, what I was said was that during Mysteries of the Sith, Kyle was using both Light and Dark powers. However, his informal and abbreviated training left him poorly equipped to deal with the strong temptation of the Dark Side. And my thought is that this will play an important part as to why Kyle seems to have forsaken the Force at the start of JKII - because he felt he was potentially a danger to himself and to others if he succumbed to the Dark Side.

 

So on the contrary, Kyle wasn't an uber-Jedi because he could use both so-called Light and Dark powers. Like I've said before, I don't think it's what powers one is capable of wielding that determines whether one is Light or Dark, but rather how one uses one's abilities. As such, I believe Kyle was a Jedi, similar in ability to many Jedi of the Old Republic. However, his lack of traditional Jedi training was his weakness, as he nearly became corrupted by the seductive power of the Force.

[Millions o' Monkeys]

yes that he did...weak minded fool

[Slonn]

• If he <i>remains</i> a gray Jedi through JK2, he'll likely be the uber-Jedi I spoke of.
  
• I've been arguing that throughout the thread.
  

[Vagabond]

Regarding the coined term Gray Jedi, holding such a title is a precarious position at best. When I used that term I was referring to one using one's powers for both good and self-serving reasons. Not that one is capable of using both so-called Light and Dark powers.

 

But regardless of the criteria one uses for determining whatever a "gray" Jedi might be, neither one leads to any kind of "uber" Jedi.

 

Using the Force for both good and self-serving reasons doesn't make one "uber". Neither does using both so-called Light and Dark Force powers - this because I don't recognize the powers themselves as having alignment, but again the context within which they are used.

 

No, I see nothing "uber" about Kyle or anyone else who finds themselves in this conflicted Gray area between the Light and the Dark. On the contrary, they have my sympathies.

[StormHammer]

I couldn't have put it better myself, Vag...so I won't bother.

 

Congrats on reaching 1000 posts, BTW.

[Vagabond]

*In best Elvis Presely voice*

 

Thank ya...thank ya very much

[Agen]

so now ur gonna die in ur bathroom for an unknown reason *takes aim at vaga with sniper rifle while he's doin his hair up*

[wardz]

but he realises he is pointing at himself and pulls the trigger. Oh dear no more terminator.

 

wardz

 

edit: spelt my name wrong