Falling to your death in a multiplayer game

[Essobie]

I’ve seen a great number of multiplayer first person shooters, and it never stops to amaze me that game designers (specifically mappers) find joy in having players kill themselves accidentally (and instantly) by making a false step. Or more relevant to a discussion about Jedi Knight 2 where a “false step” can be forced on you (pun intended) by the simple process of someone looking in your general direction while you are in mid jump, and doing either a Force Push or a Force Pull.

 

Multiplayer conflict, from deathmatch to CTF centers around players killing each other to achieve a goal (either more points or more captures or more whatever). In what way does anyone gain any satisfaction in killing someone by simply dropping someone off a ledge? Why is it even in the game, and moreso, why is it encouraged by awarding POINTS for this?

 

I would get more satisfaction from doing lethal damage to my opponents than I would if I merely had to wait until someone goes anywhere near the edge of a drop, and then flick my mousewheel up in their general direction.

 

From lava you can’t get out of in Quake, to “space maps” in Quake 3, to what we have now in the 3 foot wide catwalks on Nar Shadaa in Jedi Knight 2, time and time again, designers think it is cute and humorous to spend the majority of the game watching people fall, rather than watching people have interesting confrontations dealing with agility, speed, and aim.

 

On maps that do not include insta-death scenarios (especially setups that take up the majority of the map), I find multiplayer JK2 exhilarating and very enjoyable. There is a mix of balance based on what weapons are available, the environment, and force powers. The game is fast paced and exciting. You can spend 100% of the time worried about what your opponents are doing, and adjust your playstyle accordingly.

 

The moment that most of your attention must be on where you are walking exactly INSTEAD of what your opponents are up to is when the gameplay grinds to screeching halt, turning the match into the FPS equivalent of a pillow fight. What may have been placed in the game as “fleeting, short-lived fun” for the folks that enjoy listening to wails of falling foes, is basically an extremely shallow excuse for gameplay.

 

I’m interested to know if organized leagues, tournaments, and competitions are going to keep maps with lots of deadly vertical drops in their map rotation, and if so, why?

 

Essobie

[Saberwolf]

I think your being a little harsh on the developers.

 

While I agree that the somewhat disturbingly sadistic trend of players to put the drop on other players gets extremely annoying, it is not so much a major fault in the gameplay as in the maps. Obviously, this type of thing only becomes a major factor in maps with lots of nasty deep holes thrown about, i.e. bespin shafts, and nar shadda streets. Infact, I've played on servers where people leave when one of those aforemented maps comes up.

 

(just a quick thought from a forum newbie)

[Darthtoast]

One reason they might have used the Nar Shaddaa levels is because they already made an SP level for it, so why not include it in MP? It's another map to play and gives some variation.

It IS annoying to be pushed and pulled into oblivion, but that's what you get for playing the maps with drops. No one's forcing you to play them. I think that you just have to get used to looking around before jumping in levels like those.

[Essobie]

That's the point... there is a reason why people leave servers when those maps come around: they aren't fun to play on.

 

As I said, it's more specifically the mappers that create the environements that I don't think makes good gameplay, but if you push someone and they immediately fall to their death, you get a frag. THAT isn't the mappers doing that.

 

Most of all, I'm wondering of the competitive aspect of the JK2 community is going to filter these annoying maps out during their competition. From the very FEW Q3CTF ladder games I was involved in, CTF4 (that space CTF map) was never used in competition because the majority of the deaths in games on that map were from falling and not from getting shot.

 

Essobie

[Essobie]

Originally posted by Darthtoast

One reason they might have used the Nar Shaddaa levels is because they already made an SP level for it, so why not include it in MP? It's another map to play and gives some variation.

It IS annoying to be pushed and pulled into oblivion, but that's what you get for playing the maps with drops. No one's forcing you to play them. I think that you just have to get used to looking around before jumping in levels like those.

 

I am used to looking around before jumping... jumping around by myself is simple. It's the ease of which my opponents can have their way with me while I'm doing the jumping is the problem.

 

And without a doubt, I'm not going to be playing on those maps any more.

 

I totally agree with you in that they included Nar Shadaa because they already had the .map lying around to make a few minor MP changes to create a new map. But there is also a CTF style map with the same problems that center around big drops... including around the flags on both ends. That map isn't in single player anywhere.

 

Essobie

[TheJackal]

what. you dont like the sound of your enemies' screaming when he's falling those endless pits that seem to sprout up everywhere in the StarWars universe?

 

I like it but I dont do it while they are in a saber battle with someone else nor when they are not engaged with me in combat.

 

as for that CTF you last refered to is called CTF_Bespin I think.

 

it's simple. DONT jump. and for that flag in the middle of that ditch. Simple. do the staff jump to jump quite low ONTO the platform with the flag (you can only achieve this with good timing) and then run out right away threw the platform's entrance. if you do it right its impossible for them to touch you. you're moving to fast for them to target you + force push you.

 

of course there's allways that lucky guy who does push you.

[Jeff 42]

I find it extremely fun to send people flying to their deaths, and I don't have a problem with other people doing it to me from time to time. It adds another interesting element to gameplay. You have to be aware of where other people are who might be able to push you off. It's especially fun when someone tries to grip you off a ledge, but you turn the tables and send him to his doom as well--or even better, send him flying and manage to stay on the ledge yourself. My favorite MP map in the game is Nar Shaddaa Streets, and my favorite for CTF are Bespin Exhaust Shafts and Warring Factions. I guess it's just a matter of personal preference, just like some people don't like playing with guns.

[Pvt_Dancer]

I like playing on levels with drops. Not only is occasionally fun to choke another player into the void... I think its thrilling and epic to do battle on the verge of tumbling into a precipice where one false jump or step will prove fatal.

 

You could always play only on maps that don't have these drop offs... or play on them in areas where there are no drop offs... Even in Nar Shaada there are a few spots where you could hide out and fight reasonably safely... if thats your bag.

[CBrate]

I don't mind heights. Bespin, whilst being notorious for such deaths seems designed around running the catwalks and quickly dispatching any opposition on your way to the flag. It is quick, fun and full of action. Sabre-swishing is secondary to the objective here and if you want in-depth sabre techniques, reevaluate your preference for CTF.

[Darth Abbadon]

I enjoy the Nar Shadaa maps as well. I find it quite gratifying to hurl the people who think force absorb is the end all of protection to their doom. (Most especially the flag runners in CTF that use it.) I also find it quite amusing to knock off the drain and choke kiddies before they even get in range to use their powers.

[Wake]

all whiners should be killed ... play a different game if you dont like it

[Phr00t]

I like the Nar Shaddaa Maps. I've dueled a clan member across the entire map, starting down where the two pits were and forcing him to follow me everywhere, while still fighting. Running backwards, attacking and jumping over ledges requires quite some knowledge of the map to perform well. It's fun when you get it, and for that reason, I can live with the Push/Pullers.

[Hubris]

I've always hated maps with lava, bottomless pits, etc, but I think it's pretty well done in JK2 due to the level of control you have over it. Getting knocked to your doom is generally your fault once you know how to keep it in control.

 

As for it immensely limiting you, I don't agree, I've done and seen other folks run CTF_ns_streets the whole way backwards with the flag.

 

I would have to say though, I like maps where it's a feature of a greater map, not the sole feature of the map. CTF_Bespin for example really has nothing more going for it besides the bottomless pits, the map otherwise is really quite terrible from a gameplay and design perspective, very one dimensional. Imagine Bespin without the pits to illustrate my point, it would be garbage.

 

Whereas CTF_Streets it really adds to the map in my opinion. Remove the pits and the level is still quite good, the addition of the pits just accentuates it.

[Pain]

Those maps aren't the greatest, but they are still pretty fun to play. There have been a few times when I was watching some people fighting on one of the platforms and someone would grip and attempt to throw them to their death, and right before they fall i would pull them back and laugh while the guy who would have died killed his oppenent. to me thats entertainment

[sunsetrider]

For Nar Shadda, that is a rather expansive map that you can suit and adopt a different approach to counter all the deaths by falling off the ledge. Absorb is one thing to use in trying to negate the effect of either grip or push, but the ranged attacks are a boon for this map. It is rather effortless to use a guided rocket to send them flying off as well.

[Pedro The Hutt]

Originally posted by Wake

all whiners should be killed ... play a different game if you dont like it

And what about people who can't live with other people having a different opinion than theirs? ^_~

 

 

Anywho, I agree on the getting points for pushing someone off a cliff thing. Back in the days of JK you lost a point yourself if you fell to your death ^.^ Not the one that pushed you getting a point. Bleh they should at least detract points for light siders using it lol, a light Jedi isn't supposed to be cruel/mean/unfair and push his opponent of a cliff hehe. Anywho.. it should go back like JK in that department. But besides that. biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig thumbs up to Raven for making a damn fun game

[Prodigal]

I really like the 'rules' of this game, the danger of being manipulated with force while airborne, attacking, rolling, ect really adds an extra factor to the game...if that wernt implemented there would be little to no danger for someone grabbing the flag on NS, force speeding and strafe jumping to safety (NOt that thats not still doable even with the restrictions). All this does is cause you to become a smarter player.

 

When I first started playing on NS I did fall off ledges, miss jumps and get pushed off pretty often, but once you get used to the movement and the flow of the game you can execute some pretty cool manuevers. I think it adds a needed third dimention to the usual jump around and fire gameplay that most games present.

 

 

 

 

Prodigal

 

Peace.

[LooNBB]

Everytime I "throw" someone " to their Doom" I just laugh and laugh... It NEVER gets old for me

[CBrate]

Originally posted by LooNBB

Everytime I "throw" someone " to their Doom" I just laugh and laugh... It NEVER gets old for me

 

I wonder if I can wipe that smile off your face by pulling your over as well in true "You're coming with me" style?

[Jiro Kage]

I disagree with you completely.

 

I think it fits well into the Star Wars universe - endless pits of death are everywhere. Yes, it is kinda cheap how you can be so easily gripped and tossed, but that lends another aspect to the game. A guy with saber out approaches you in a teamgame on nar shadda, what do you do? You can fight him with saber and risk getting tossed off, or blast him with something and knock him off. Or, you get tossed, remember who he is and dont let it happen again.

 

I think that the ability to pitch enemies off a ledge is an excellent addition. However, I think you should be able to "catch" the force push or pull in the air like you can when you are standing.

 

The point is not to jump when an enemy is in range, or avoid getting close enough that they can grip, or if they are grip monkeys then learn when to switch weapons or use something else against them.

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by Essobie

I’ve seen a great number of multiplayer first person shooters, and it never stops to amaze me that game designers (specifically mappers) find joy in having players kill themselves accidentally (and instantly) by making a false step. Or more relevant to a discussion about Jedi Knight 2 where a “false step” can be forced on you (pun intended) by the simple process of someone looking in your general direction while you are in mid jump, and doing either a Force Push or a Force Pull.

 

Never played Quake 3 or Tribes, huh?

 

 

Multiplayer conflict, from deathmatch to CTF centers around players killing each other to achieve a goal (either more points or more captures or more whatever). In what way does anyone gain any satisfaction in killing someone by simply dropping someone off a ledge? Why is it even in the game, and moreso, why is it encouraged by awarding POINTS for this?

 

Gets me all warm and fuzzy inside.

 

I would get more satisfaction from doing lethal damage to my opponents than I would if I merely had to wait until someone goes anywhere near the edge of a drop, and then flick my mousewheel up in their general direction.

 

Play on non-force servers if it's such an issue.

 

From lava you can’t get out of in Quake, to “space maps” in Quake 3, to what we have now in the 3 foot wide catwalks on Nar Shadaa in Jedi Knight 2, time and time again, designers think it is cute and humorous to spend the majority of the game watching people fall, rather than watching people have interesting confrontations dealing with agility, speed, and aim.

 

You can always make your own maps. There is an SDK out now.

 

On maps that do not include insta-death scenarios (especially setups that take up the majority of the map), I find multiplayer JK2 exhilarating and very enjoyable. There is a mix of balance based on what weapons are available, the environment, and force powers. The game is fast paced and exciting. You can spend 100% of the time worried about what your opponents are doing, and adjust your playstyle accordingly.

 

Agreed. It rocks.

 

The moment that most of your attention must be on where you are walking exactly INSTEAD of what your opponents are up to is when the gameplay grinds to screeching halt, turning the match into the FPS equivalent of a pillow fight. What may have been placed in the game as “fleeting, short-lived fun” for the folks that enjoy listening to wails of falling foes, is basically an extremely shallow excuse for gameplay.

 

 

Or you could worry about both. But that would require skill.

[Rogue74]

I don't think it's any kind of problem at all. You've just got to think about what you're doing or about to do and you have to keep aware of where you're at so people can't exploit your position and send you off of a ledge. Force pushing, pulling, or gripping someone off a ledge is as much of a kill as a heated lightsaber duel. You exploit mistakes and stupidity in both.

 

Those maps are my favorite because nothing is more humiliating than Force gripping someone and holding them over a ledge and holding them where they can't do anything about their situation then dropping them.

[Fettish]

If you don't like the bottomless pit maps, then don't play them. There are plenty of other levels you can play that don't have pits everywhere.

[Con. Snake]

I'm working on a map, that yes has pits. But when a players is pushed, pulled, gripped, or whatever and thrown into them, an air current pushes the player back to safety. It's a rowdy "F**k You" to the type of players I hate. I'm sure it will piss off those bastards, but ya know what? Don't like it, Don't play it. No skin off my back.

[Harpoon]

Why do people do it? its the only way to eliminate players quickly. In JO you hit the guy tons of times with your lightsaber and he doesn't die and it usually ends with either one of your teammates coming with with a repeater and stealing your kill or a couple of his buds arriving.