Breakin2' Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 does Vader try to bring Luke with him to the Emperor? If Luke became the Emperor's apprentice, Vader would be out. He'd have to realize that. Of course, it can be argued that Vader planned to have he and Luke overthrow the Emperor (which he suggested in Empire Strikes Back), but in Return of the Jedi it certainly didn't seem like he was going to turn on the Emperor anytime soon. Well, right up until the point that he did... Still, the general idea that I got from watching Return of the Jedi is that Darth Vader wanted Luke to join him and the Emperor. That would make three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Seph Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 Well Vader follows orders from the Emperor. The Emperor tells Vader to bring Luke to him. The Emperor then makes sure they will duel , by taunting and making sure Luke will take the saber. After the Duel , the Emperor says "take your fathers place at my side". Sort of giving the impression on out with the old in with the new. So in the end it comes back to 2. A master and an appretance : The Emperor and either Luke or Vader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breakin2' Posted April 27, 2002 Author Share Posted April 27, 2002 I always wondered how Anakin wound up becoming sub-serviant to the Emperor. Supposedly, he is amazingly powerful (he had a higher concentration of those medaclorians (sp) than Yoda did) and, evidentally, becomes really arrogant. Why would such a person take orders. I figure Vader would want to become the master himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewBJedi Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 I thought Vader foresaw the doom of the Emperor - didn't he mention that in Empire Strikes Back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamiclone Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 who ever said anything about there having to be two? I mean i know that yoda said in episode I "...always two there are, never more, never less..." but i mean he's talking about there can only be two as like a master and his apprentice, but where i am going is that who said vader wanted luke to be his apprentice. How about partnership in this thing so called the "sith". Then maybe down stream they each can have an apprentice and create a giant family of red sabers. (thats a metaphor or something like it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gundark Kid Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 Could the Emperor have given up his claim as a Dark Lord after he became Emperor? I mean, "Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith" sounds like he's the number one Sith Lord to me. The Emperor must have had to appear in an official role more and more as time went on. I mean, the guy would have to lead a secret identity double life as Emperor/Dark Lord. Sounds like a lot of work. So Palpatine goes into retirement as Dark Lord of the Sith, Vader steps up to bat as Sith Lord, and now he needs an apprentice. Palpatine would probably be arrogant and self-assured enough to feel like he didn't need the 'Dark Lord' stuff anymore. In Episode IV, one of Tarkin's adjutants, I forget his name... Tagge? said to Vader that he (Vader) was the "last of his religion"...was he referring to Vader's Jedi tradiation, or his devotion to the Sith? I prefer to think that he was talking about Vader's devotion to the Sith. Man, I think about SW too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt_Dancer Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 I thought that the Emporer told Luke that he was going to take his fathers place. Doesn't he say that? Vader was most likely thinking that Luke and he could strike down the Emporer or at the very least was unable to resist the will of the Emporer and the Emporer was expecting Luke to strike down his father. I dunno... thats how it always seemed to go down to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAgent Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 It is said in Episode 1 that there is always 2 Sith Lords (master and apprentice). Master = the Emperor Apprentice = Vader My opinion is that they were merely trying to turn Luke to the dark side. My understanding is that a Dark Jedi and a Sith Lord are different entities. So they could have turned him to serve the dark side as a dark Jedi without upsetting the whole Sith balance thing? DA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue15 Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 Well, they do have Mara Jade as a dark jedi assassin...so why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaroff Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 Mara Jade is part of the expanded universe not the movies. Also, in Return of the Jedi, Obi-Wan tells Luke that if Anakin had any offspring they would be a threat to the Emperor. Meaning that Luke will be more powerful than Vader if he becomes a Jedi. So, why should the Emperor keep Vader if he can have Luke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Abbadon Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 Originally posted by Rogue15 Well, they do have Mara Jade as a dark jedi assassin...so why not? From what I understand though, anything that isn't in the movies isn't canon, so Mara Jade wouldn't count. Edit: Heh, we posted at the same time. First time that's happened to me I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gundark Kid Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 Originally posted by Pvt_Dancer I thought that the Emporer told Luke that he was going to take his fathers place. Doesn't he say that? Vader was most likely thinking that Luke and he could strike down the Emporer or at the very least was unable to resist the will of the Emporer and the Emporer was expecting Luke to strike down his father. I dunno... thats how it always seemed to go down to me. True, he says "Take your Father's place by my side", and he also calls Luke "my young apprentice", but he could also have said "my boy" as easily. Vader was servant and emmisary of the Emperor. But if Vader was the apprentice, would the apprentice have the title "Dark Lord of the Sith"? I think not. Darth Maul was a Lord of the Sith, right? But was he a Dark Lord? I forget. Vader could have been Dark lord and Sith Master, so to speak (he even says to Obi-Wan, "the circle is complete...I am the Master now"), and still been a servant of the Emperor. Vader revels in the power of the force, he even says that "the power of (the death star) is insignificant compared to the power of the force". The Emperor's connection to the force was different than Vader's, too, I think. As an incredibly force sensitive being, Vader probably surpassed Palpatine's mastery of the nuances of the force early on. Palpatine used aspects of the force that Vader didn't, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have done those things- the Emperor never used Grip in the movies, but Vader could. He didn't even have to be on the same planet as you, all he had to do was see your image to choke you! Vader survived the fall into the molten pit after fighting Obi-Wan and he survived the same force lightning that was killing Luke, for a little while at least. I think that as far as powerful force weilders go, Vader and the Emperor were equal, at worst. You'd think that wrinkley old man could get away from a half dead, one handed asthmatic, but he couldn't, Vader picked him right up. How? Vader was using his connection to the force, a stronger one than the Emperor's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebelwerfer_ Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 I know that if it isnt in the movie then it aint cannon, but what about the sith catacombs from MOTS? I'm sure that it implies that there were more than 2 sith existing simultaniously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gundark Kid Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 Well, I think that the point is only two Sith LORDS can exist at any one time, but you can still be "of the Sith" without being a Sith Lord. Perhaps the Sith were a group that had been subjugated by Dark Jedi in ages past, and had come to worship them, and rever the ways of the Dark Side as being the just and correct way of the force? Maybe that's even where the term "Dark Lord of the Sith" came from- "Dark" from the "Dark Side", and "Sith Lord" from that twisted religion of worshipping Dark Jedi? So that's how Vader can be "Dark Lord" of the Sith- he's got power from both camps of the Dark Side? I don't know, it was never really explained, maybe Ep. 2 will clear that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obijonkenobi Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 From my understanding, there was (a long time before Ep1) thousands of Sith. But due to their greed for power they ended up turning on each other and the end result was only 2 or something of a low number like that was left. They decided to avoid this in-house fighting they would only have two Siths. A master and an aprentice. When the master dies, the apprentice becomes the new master and takes a new aprentice - this would keep happening up until the events of the movies. As for Vader and Luke and dear old Mr Wrinkles (aka: the Emperor), in Epire Strikes Back, Vader says to Luke to join him and together they will over throw the Emperor... This sounds like Vader wanting his master to die which would make Vader the new master, and therefore letting Luke become the new aprentice. I dont know details but I am pretty sure thats at least partially correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hibiki Kensaki Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 I personally think the "only two" thing refers to a master only having one apprentice. Once this apprentice graduates to Sith Lord, he can take up another. This is different from the Jedi in that the Jedi have whole academies that train hundreds of kids into force wielding, saber toting soldi... err... defenders of the peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breakin2' Posted April 27, 2002 Author Share Posted April 27, 2002 I think Episode II may just complicate matters. We all know that Darth Maul was the apprentice and it's assumed that the future Emperor was the master. What about Count Dooku? I don't know many details about the movie (I've avoided spoilers the best I could), but the action figures have him being as dark jedi master. If Palpatine is a master and this guy is too, who would be the apprentice? Of course, this will hopefully all be answered in the movie, but that's just too far away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedantic Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 Dooku is the apprentice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star ReaVeR Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 Well I was asking kind of the same thing, I don't know if someone already heard of that darth tyrannus guy from episode 2, is he an apprentice of darth sidious too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCanr2d2 Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 All goes back to Darth Bane, the Sith Lord who set the rule of two, after the mentioned Sith slaugher, due to the greed/fear etc of other Sith, it is much safer to keep the Sith at two. After all, the Massassi Temple on Yavin IV, where the rebels base their attack on the Death Star in ANH is an ancient Sith Temple. For most of TESB and ROTJ, it is a lot of manouvering by Vader and Palpatine to get Luke to join one of them. Vader wanting Luke with him, and get rid of the Emperor, and the Emperor wanting Luke to get rid of Vader. In the end, the Emperor is right, Luke and Anakin do rule the galaxy together, but not as Sith, but as Jedi... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amorpheus Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 I'd say Vader just had to obey his master, no matter what he thinks about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 I think Palpatine was getting overconfident and thought he could handle multiple Apprentices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CupO'Coffee Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 no i dont think so. i think he wanted either luke or vader at his side. he wanted vader and luke to duel each other, that way he could determinate who of them is stronger as well as getting rid of luke as a menace to his reign. also i think that vader wanted luke at HIS side, getting rid of sidious that way. such treacherous behaviour seems to be common among the sith (didn't exar kur or what his name was like best his master in combat, that way becoming the new master?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amorpheus Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 Then why'd Vader stop Luke from chopping the Emperor's head off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CupO'Coffee Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 hmm... good point... maybe vader only talks big about ruling the galaxy when big S isn't about... or this "let us rule the galaxy together" thing was only a way of tricking luke into the darkside or, vader wanted to fight with luke, making him get angry, and when he (luke) would have realized that he has fallen to the darkside vader would betray sidious (what he actually did whatsoever), kill him and rule the galaxy with luke at his side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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