Mercs vs. Jedis -- Suggestions for the Future of this Mod

[Solo4114]

Ok, I just finished playing my first Mercs vs. Jedi game. It's a very cool idea for a mod. Essentially, it works as follows, in case you don't know yet.

 

Mercs:

 

- Can use guns (duh!)

- Can pick up powerup items (IE: force field, sentry gun, bacta tank)

- Can't jump very high

- Can't roll

- Can't flip

- Have to find guns throughout the map (since we're playing on FFA maps)

 

Jedi:

 

- Start with a sabre

- Can be either dark or light side (you're not restricted based on your team)

- Start with whatever level of power the servers give them (IE: guardian, knight, master, etc.)

- Can do basically everything that a force user does (and that we usually take for granted) in this game.

 

Ok, so how's it break down?

 

Well, Mercs seem fairly underpowered, frankly. Jedi actually DO kick major ass in one on one battles with mercs. In fact, this mod seems fairly unbalanced in favor of jedi.

 

I started off my game playing as a jedi, and I did fine. I got killed here and there, but by and large, I was able to kill just about any merc I came across. Unless they were out of range of my throw or lightning, and unless they had a splash damage weapon, I could generally chop them to kibble.

 

Eventually, the teams became uneven, so I switched to the merc side. WHOA...HUGE difference. For starters, mercs start out with a bryar pistol and a stun baton. That's it. And let me tell you, if you get caught by a Jedi before you've found a decent weapon, you are HISTORY. Even if there's three of you, you're all going down if you don't have a decent weapon. Sometimes you can get behind a jedi (while he's demolishing your teammate) and hit him a few times with a blaster or bowcaster (which really is a friggin' useless weapon unless you get to basically point blank range), but for the most part, unless you have a repeater, a rocket launcher, a flechette cannon, or some explosives (or maybe a DEMP gun), you're in serious trouble.

 

Add to the fact that a jedi can simply yank these weapons from your hands if they want to, and you have some MAJOR imbalances in this mod.

 

Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea of the mod. That's why I'm bothering to post this thread. It's a very cool concept, BUT it needs some balance. So, here are some suggestions for how to balance this mod in future releases. Not all of them should necessarily be implemented, but picking from this list should certainly help.

 

1.) Allow mercs to spawn with full guns and ammo. A jedi spawns with all the tools of his trade: the force and his lightsabre. Why not let a merc spawn with the tools of their trade? You don't even have to give full ammo, just half ammo for some items (IE: rockets and explosives).

 

2.) Remove the "pull" ability. Yeah, it's cool to yank guns from a merc's hands, but the mercs are already at a disadvantage when they have to go hunting for guns in the first place, instead of hunting the other team.

 

3.) Remove the backstab from this mod. There is simply no purpose in having it at all in this mod, since if you play a true mercs v. jedi game, no jedi will be sneaking up behind OTHER jedi. Like I said, mercs got it tough enough already.

 

4.) Remove shields from the jedi. Jedi have the force. What use do they have for shields? Let the FORCE be their shield. I mean, hell, it takes timing, but you can push a missile, detonator, or even the repeater's alt fire back at it's user. Plus, you can backflip, leap over an explosion, etc. as a jedi.

 

Just a few thoughts. Post others if ya got 'em. And as always, let's try to keep this mature and civil for as long as possible...

[Ferox]

i also started playing jedi vs merc.. and since i never picked up a gun in the game i naturally picked jedi... but the blue side was outnumbered so i decided to switch.

 

 

not only did i get plenty of kills.. but i got my team to actually work together.. and we did rather well, we still lost the match but it was only by a few kills.

 

 

i dont see the mercs as underpowered.. i just see the jedi as..well jedi. but i would agree with a few changes.

[ShockV1.89]

Mercs v Jedi is a mod that, in its current beta state, is largley dependent on what level you're on. In NS_Streets, jedi will rule, bar none. In Bespin Shafts, mercs are more likely to win, unless jedi camp the catwalks. Ferox and two other mercs almost beat myself and 3 other jedi, just by entrenching themselves by their base. It was a bitch-and-a half to get in to them, and by the time we did, we were ripped.

 

And so on. I just think that the ammo deal needs to be changed with this mod. Pull is still good, and its fundamental to being a jedi.

 

Start the mercs with SOME guns. A pack of thermal detonators and a blaster rifle, or a loaded repeater. Not all of them, thats a bit much. Class based outfitting would be nice here. (ie. Stormtrooper, Sniper, etc..)

 

Give the mercs a basic force jump, and higher resistance to push/pull. The jumping annoyed me the times I played as merc, and being pushed off cliffs ALL the time irritated me a little bit too.

 

ShockV1.89

[blowdpanis]

i hope raven is reading this thread, because i think mercenaries vs. jedi could be the 'new' form of play that everyone wanted...something genuinely cool, kind of revolutionary.

 

if raven does this right and even made maps around the concept, this could be infinitely cool as there are a lot of 'guns' vs. 'light saber' enthusiasts already.

 

raven, you're sitting on something with awesome potential...pick it up and run with it!

[waxdart]

One thing of note that I found strange -- Mercs can't pickup Seekers (the spherical hovering droids) but Jedi can. That's a bit on the odd side.

 

Mercs should be empowered with at least level 1 jump. There are some very small lips in the levels that we all take for granted... and become a major pain in the ass if you're a Merc.

 

Of course, adding the ability to enforce teams is a must -- I was in that session with you guys... and it was difficult enough just explaining the concept to the newcomers, much less convincing them to abide by it.

 

I tend to disagree about pull, though -- a Jedi should be able to snatch the weapon from your hand. He can't pick it up anyway. If Mercs start off with a full complement of weapons, it shouldn't be too much issue, anyway (take my rocket launcher, please! I've got a flechette in the trunk).

 

Maybe that's just me, though. I rather liked the fact that playing Mercs was a considerable challenge. It certainly encourages teamplay.

 

The pull/sweep thing, though, is a terrible threat to this game mode. It's bad in standard MP, but when you can't defend, period...

[Vanor]

One thing to keep in mind about Jedi vs Merc...

 

It wasn't ment to be balanced for both sides. Raven made the mod in responce to people here saying that gunners shouldn't be able to use the force. Or at least that's what I seem to remember. They said this mode of play would not be balanced, and that jedi would stomp on the merc's.

 

It's a unsuported mode of play, because there is really no way to truely balance it, and in all honestly it shouldn't be balanced.

 

Jedi don't fear foot troops for a reason.

[striderx2048]

It wasnt original meant for team play, it was more for pick your class, jedi or merc, now get your kill on, but I feel if the game mode is ctf, than mixed teams are good, but if it team ffa, then enforcing jedis vs mercs would be ideal.

[Kissamies]

Yes, its unsupported so far, but that doesn't stop us discussing of it. One way to balance it might be to allow the mercs to buy starting weapons the same way the jedi buy force powers. The amount of points for mercs to buy the guns would be dependent of server's force level. On Jedi Master level merc should have enough points to get all weapons, or nearly so.

[©-Kïzötzëphæl]

Bryar Pistol is actually pretty good.

Some Jedis were just fighting each other for no reasons while i was just standing there, so i just kept powering up my Bryar and shooting them, I always got a nice simple kill like that

[Dark_One]

A grappeling hook or some kind of jetpack would be very cool. Maybe a netgun.......

[Father Ruckus]

Originally posted by Dark_One

A grappeling hook or some kind of jetpack would be very cool. Maybe a netgun.......

 

LOL those are actually great ideas....no jet pack though. Hook and Net could be awesome.

 

Make the net similar to AvP2, problem is, in AvP2 you could whip out the knife and cut free, so how would it be handled with Light Sabers. Or make the Net like grip....where they can pull the netted jedi to them.

 

Also maybe make the demp gun have the ability to possibly short out a Light Saber for a few seconds

[ShockV1.89]

Yeah, but would you really want to pull a jedi and his sabre any closer than you have to? A stokhli spray gun sort of thing would work, where the net delivers a stunning charge, temporarily disabling the opponent. (sort of how grip works when you hold them for too long.)

 

ShockV1.89

[Genocide52]

I don't know if anyone has said this (didn't have time to read everything) but I wanted to state my opinion before I forgot. I think you could do something like the Hunted map on TFC. Have a maximum of so many Jedi (5 snipers on Hunted) and then everybody else has to be mercs. This would also stay true to the movie with there being only a few Jedi and many people running around with guns. Just my opinion.

[Lord Nodata]

Originally posted by Father Ruckus

Also maybe make the demp gun have the ability to possibly short out a Light Saber for a few seconds

 

That is yet another good idea. I hosted the game mode this weekend (it was the server that said clearly "Jedi vs Mercs RULES!: Jedi=RED Mercs=BLUE) and I thought of something that would make the game mode INFINITELY more fun.

 

If you could limit the amount of Jedi on EACH team, I think this game mode = winner. So say each team would have 2 jedi's and the rest must be mercs. The jedi's would be the players with the most kills on the map, or the players that had been on the map the longest...I dunno.

 

Also, I FULLY agree with the Jedi NOT being able to pick up shields.

[Ferox]

heheh i found the joys of the sniper rifle last night. like shock said we pretty much made our stand in one place right by a large opening and you could see people walking on the other side, so i just took out my rifle and wrecked some people hehe.

 

 

 

i dont think mercs should get force jump.. would be cool if they got jetpacks though hehe. and start with some weapons.

[Vanor]

I have to throw in my vote for jedi not picking up shields as well. between the increased blocking and major advantage that jedi have over merc's. This makes it rather hard to take down a jedi.

[ShockV1.89]

hehehe ferox, that was until I came up behind you and your disruptor rifle was on the floor behind me, and you with your laser pistol. wheeeeeeeee!!!

 

ShockV1.89

[striderx2048]

mercs need something to get over that lip, and jump 1 is already in the game, adding a jetpack maybe the more realistic solution, but as you can see, the patch fix some things and screwed up other, do you really want to go through that again?

[Bl4de]

To make servers enabled with Jedi Vs Merc, type the command

 

g_jediVmerc

 

I got this from a friend. It does not need to be modded into the game. Just making sure people don't waste time making a mod for a command that's already in the game. If it's not in the game sorry, I'm going to try this right now (have been too busy) everyone else try it, it SHOULD work.

[Bl4de]

Bump

[TheJackal]

can you give me the IPs of good servers who use this?

[KnightHawk420]

Force jump level 1 might not be a bad idea. But I'd steer clear of anything that gives gun users any force powers. If it's truly neccessary so be it, but I haven't found a situation where it's "needed" for mercs.

 

Mercs vs Jedi's should NOT be balanced by means of tweaking the abilities of each. To simply allow an admin the possibilty of limiting the ratio of jedi's to mercs would suffice. say 3 mercs for every 1 jedi should provide enough challenge. But this limit/ratio should be defineable and not hard coded.

 

Again jedi and merc abilities should not be tweaked. You are a merc, not a jedi, or a jedi in training, or a jedi wannabe. Your a gun luser with a itch trigger finger.

 

Jedi's should not have any of they're powers touched. As much as being a gun user and having your guns pulled, well maybe ya ought not mess with dem jedi's...

 

Even a jedi having shields. I might let that go, but still the problem is relatively solved by ratio. If you get 3 or 4 mercs pounding on you from different directions as a jedi your neato force powers will pale in comparison to your need to run like hell.

 

So IMHO forget tweaking, just give me ratios, and an objectives based gametype and map(s). And for the rest of you, just deal with the fact that no merc in any galaxy can hold a candle by himself to a jedi. This gametype should be meant for teamplay where the mercs always outnumber Jedi's. Or we can just make a suck mod and neuter it, to where mercs are of equal value to jedi's.

[K_Kinnison]

ratios of Jedi vs Merc should be the best and easiest. And will still allow for pure servers.

 

maybe give the mercs a 2v1 advatage. I guess it needs to be playtested.

 

Mercs should learn to work together. You have to be Uber bounty hunter in order to take out a Jedi 1v1. Boba Fett certainly had a hard time in RotJ, and Jango Fett only does well becaue he is expeinaced, and fights dirty

 

I have played many Team FFA, and the key to those is running around in packs. same thing with Jedi vs Merc

 

When you re-spawn as a merc, first thoguhtshold be to get a Decent Gun ASAP to defend yourself. Then find some buds, THEN stockpile if needed

[Ten Tigers]

Here are some ideas that I feel would make this Jedi vs. Merc thing own...

 

Most of these ideas are for the mercs. I think the jedi are fine as is...

 

First give the mercs the ability to roll. As it is you cannot roll with a gun regardless of who you are. Not only can mercs roll, but they can fire while rolling to either side, but not while rolling forward or backwards. Instead of rolling, jedi should do cartwheels to either side and the Maul/Butterfly flip forward or backwards.

 

Tweak the mercs jump ever-so-slightly. It's a joke as it is. I can jump further in real life. But I dont think they should get any kind of force jump. Which is koo. Then mercs can do the whole Chow Yung Fat dive/roll/jump, shooting all the while...

 

Mercs get the choice between a grappling hook or a jetpack. The differance is the jetpack is more versitile but has a limited use before it needs to cool down and it cannot be used. Where as the grappling hook is unlimited in use but does not have the speed and full manuverability of the jetpack. Either on can be used to save you from a push/pull attack.

 

I thought about a netgun but it would really be useless. Not only could such an attack be pushed back to you, even if it hit, it wouldnt stop a saberer for more than a second or two. Anyone who has tried to net an Aliien on Aliens vs. Predator 2 will know what Im talking about...

 

And lastly, thermal detonators should be instagib weapons. Balanced by the fact that they can be easily pushed back, only yeild one per pickup, only two can be carried max, and the respawn time is double what most weapon/ammo pickups are.

 

 

 

 

What do yall think of my ideas?

[Solo4114]

Some great ideas here, people.

 

I definitely agree that we shouldn't overpower the mercs. They should not receive any force powers whatsoever. Their jump is, as far as I'm concerned, relatively fair.

 

I like the idea of the mod limiting the # of jedi per team or per game. IE: if all jedi are on one team, make there be a mandatory 3 to 1 ratio in favor of mercs. One jedi can pretty easily take out three mercs if they're close enough.

 

Maybe starting mercs with FULL guns is a bit much, but I do like the idea of being able to pick either a class, buy your weapons, or giving everyone a bryar, stun baton, blaster rifle, four detonators, and maybe a half-loaded flechette cannon. I think the flechette would be best because, 1) it's primary fire can easily be blocked, 2) its secondary fire, while strong, can easily be pushed, and 3) its secondary fire isn't quite as accurate (but seem stronger) as the repeater. Personally, I gravitate towards a class based game, since I've been a fan of those for years.

 

There's lots of ways to do the class based game, having classes like scout, bounty hunter, smuggler, stormtrooper, heavy trooper, etc., and giving them varying shields, weapons, and speeds (IE: heavy guys move slower than scouts).

 

If we want to leave mercs to simply be mercs (no classes) then I think the purchasing system or simply starting out with a more beefed up arsenal would level the playing field.

 

As far as pull goes, I guess if they start with more guns, it wouldn't be a problem really. Pull my blaster, I've got a repeater. Etc.