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ArtifeX's "What Needs to Happen in 1.04"


ArtifeX

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I've written a much-needed summation, based on all of my testing and research, of everything that I believe needs to be modified in a new 1.04 patch in order for JK2 to maintain long-term appeal and to repair the current community rift created by the 1.03 patch. Here's the link:

 

http://www.oculis.org/asc/features_104.html

 

I've got many fixes that would be very simple (seemingly) to implement, and others that are far more involved. Everybody give it a read and let me know what you think. Give me some good suggestions, and I may just add them to the list with a credit in your name.

 

Also, if anyone has an appropriate email address for someone at Raven assigned to JK2, then email it to me at:

 

arsartifex@msn.com

 

and I'll make sure to post it on that page so that Raven can hear about your reactions to my post directly.

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the suggestions at the bottom about altering the sabers the player wields is kinda interesting.

 

In 1.03 I've actually seen some blue stance players do quite well doing that spinning top routine. It coulda been that their opponents just sucked though, so it's hard to say.

 

I'm really not a fan of the blocking being "aimed" by the position of your crosshairs. In laggy games you're already fighting at a time disadvantage, your opponent will be beginning his next action by the time you see his current one.

 

In other words such a change would instantly dump jk2 into the "LPB only" realm. Unless I guess the blocking field was given quite a large radius in front of the player.

 

I do think it's kind of silly how easy it is for each stance to defend their rear even while the target is moving around; if you're engaged doing something else anyone swinging at your back should darn near be guarantee some damage.

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Ill read it later, ill probably disagree with you on most of the stuff since your against 1.03 and im for but its still worth reading. Be sure to include downgrading kick damage to 5 points. Kick should be to knock someone over, not to kill them.

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Originally posted by Xzzy

the suggestions at the bottom about altering the sabers the player wields is kinda interesting.

 

In 1.03 I've actually seen some blue stance players do quite well doing that spinning top routine. It coulda been that their opponents just sucked though, so it's hard to say.

 

I'm really not a fan of the blocking being "aimed" by the position of your crosshairs. In laggy games you're already fighting at a time disadvantage, your opponent will be beginning his next action by the time you see his current one.

 

There's not a whole lot anyone can do to help people on a 56k. Crippling gameplay to allow for 200ms lag would utterly destroy competitive play. I'd say that those with high-latency connections have enough of an advantage now because of the way they "teleport hop" all over the map.

 

In other words such a change would instantly dump jk2 into the "LPB only" realm. Unless I guess the blocking field was given quite a large radius in front of the player.

 

I do think it's kind of silly how easy it is for each stance to defend their rear even while the target is moving around; if you're engaged doing something else anyone swinging at your back should darn near be guarantee some damage.

 

What you're encountering is the bug where a close-range saber will clip through the enemy player model and hit from the opposite side. I'd recommend that when you're swinging at someone with their back to you that you keep this in mind and attack them from the maximum range of your current saber style.

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The DFA can turn while being executed, can kill while the saber is buried in the floor, and does far too much 1-hit damage.

 

being a n00b to the community (not necessarily the game) I dont

know what you mean by the DFA. If its that "finishing move" that is referred to (forward+jump+primary from standing) then they can do what they want to it cos I can't pull it off anyway.

 

I hope that Raven can implement what you suggested - it sounds like more variation in style will ensue from your suggested fixes - but I admit that it'd be pretty unlikely, more's the pity.

 

But then saying that i'm quite happy to play the game as it is, although I don't play much online (just LAN games with friends and with the oh-so-l33t bots.

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I read the recommendations and am in agreement for the most part. A couple of small things I disagree with.

 

1) Making The Light Style 1 Handed.

This doesn't make sense since it is supposed to be a defensive style. I would think the "acrobatic" medium style would be one handed. If you think about it you're opening up your attack options at the expense of your defense.

 

2) Removing Saber Throw From FFA Duels

I don't think this is necessary. This is just really a matter of awareness. If you watch for it you can block every one of them.

 

3) As for the radical changes, I would rather see them added as new styles than replacing old styles.

 

Otherwise I agree completely and think it those changes would make the game much better.

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I do find it harder to make use of mindtrick, I have actually found a use for this power, although maybe not the intended usage. I personally use to run my opponent "LOW on force power during duels, most people are usually using absorb, (even if thier not this still works) so what I do is use mindtrick to run thier force down by making them activate thier force sight. once i have them "LOW" on force so they cant block, usually after about 4 times after making them use sight, I then use force pull to put them to the ground and backstab them. this has worked well against skilled players such as Xeo, Luna, IdiotSavant, jedi Menace and others. If they dont use sight then I just get in front of them and do a medium stance down up slash, which gets me some good damage and makes them think twice about not activating thier sight. While it is difficult because you need to be aware of your opponents force power, I feel if they change Mindtrick or the cost of sight, it might make this tactic too powerful. I could see maybe a slight increase in the cost of sight, but only a extremly small amount if any.

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some good points (in my opinion)

 

- Saber Throw-- Remove Saber Throwing from FFA duels.

an awesome idea, players can simply backpedal and throw. if you start an attack, they roll and throw, if you dont have throw, you die.

 

- Make Light Style a one-handed style

would be a great way to add something to light style, even it was purely for the "coolness" factor hehe. martial arts always rock

 

- Double-tapping direction keys and attacking

why oh why did they not include this in the original game! :)

 

the "radical" saber combat fix isnt really feasible for a patch i dont think. it wouldnt be upgrading anything, or making anything necessarily fairer. i cannot see raven heading in this direction at all. however, i think it would make for an awesome mod! anyone? :)

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Originally posted by ArtifeX

 

There's not a whole lot anyone can do to help people on a 56k. Crippling gameplay to allow for 200ms lag would utterly destroy competitive play.

 

Agreed, however, I'm not talking about just modem people.

 

Most folks seem to hover around 90-100ms on the servers I frequent. That means you're seeing 200ms go by before you see what the guy on the other end is seeing, without taking into account CPU lag on all three endpoints.

 

Note how fast opponents seem to stand up when knocked down compared to how fast YOU stand up. That's what you're seeing.

 

I just think that making such a blocking system would stress people's network too much. Maybe in a 0 ping environment it would work but with today's internet it just seems like opening the doors to frustration.

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Absorb has been overpowered. It has an effective duration of 27 seconds and is invisible to opponents until a power is used against it. It also has a minimal initial use cost that carries over from the previous version. All these factors combine to make it the most effective Power in the game--by far.

i hate to break it to you but you will never kill anybody with absorb, its a defensive move, not offensive

 

Kicking and Wall moves still require Level 2 Jump, and so are not in No-Force matches.

can you honestly say that you can walk on walls in real life? of course you need force!

 

you say the manual says medium is "acrobatic" but this is the quote from the manual

This is the classic lightsaber combat style. The attacks are of medium speed and range and do a decent amount of damage. Some of the moves incorporate spins. A jedi can chain about 3-5 attacks in a row. This style is best for fighting multiple enemies.

please tell me where the word acrobatic is found in there

 

All saber damage has been lowered drastically, with the exception of the Medium Finisher and the Backstab/sweep moves, which actually do much more damage than before.

this is bad? this just makes lightsaber duels longer, and as for backstab/sweep think about it, you make yourself vulnerable by turning your back to your opponent, you have to do a lot of damage to make the risk worth it

 

Light Style normal swings can be blocked 100% of the time while standing, crouching, moving or using a Force Power. This makes them useless against anyone who realizes this.

Medium Style normal swings can be blocked 100% of the time while standing, crouching or moving. This severely cripples this style.

i have tried this, if i stand still and watch my opponent while they are on medium or light stance i still get hurt while i am on medium, light, and heavy stances...ever heard of side sweeps?

 

Light Style swings are now nearly impossible to control due to the super-caffeinated swing speeds.

its supposed to be fast, you gotta be able to take advantage of their situation somehow

 

Lowered saber damage has given guns a huge advantage. This was supposedly balanced by higher ammo requirements for blast-radius projectiles, but this just leads to one player camping the rocket launcher ammo and denying it to everyone else.

two words, FORCE PUSH

another one word, jump

 

Isn't 300 damage a bit much for any attack? The Strong style backsweep can actually do this much. The 1.02 version was capable of this much as well, but it required that your opponent be prone and in a corner before you began the swing. I'm not one for wanting to nerf effective moves, but this is way over the top. 100 health and 200 shields should protect you from any one-hit kill.

 

have you ever tried pulling one of these off on a moving enemy? it never hits! because you can't go running around backwards after your opponent on heavy stance, they'll just kil you

and the point at which it does 300 damage is ONLY when the opponnent is hit directly with the middle of the blade, which is even harder to pull off, if you get hit by this move it is YOUR problem, you know where your direction keys are...right?

 

Make Light Style a one-handed style and allow the free hand to be used for specialized melee attacks like grappling and punches.

have you ever seen anybody in star wars punch? you'd just end up with a missing hand like in a new hope when obi wan cuts off the persons hand in the bar

besides light stance isn't going to get any better with one hand

 

Do NOT make blocking manual. We have enough keys to worry with already!

how about an option to make it manual either a) for the individual or b) for the server

Slow down Light Style so that thoughtful combos are possible.

i can do combos in light style, can't you? besides, any slower and it would be impposible to take advantage of the moment, and it will just be a weaker medium

 

Allow Light and Medium style to have crouch-roll attacks, but make sure the attacks themselves have very short range and a small recovery time after the swing. Make sure these are blockable when crouched, at least

crouch is supposed to be defensive, not offensive

 

Make all Saber Styles cost the same number of points to buy in the Force Power Setup. Don't make any style a prerequisite of another.

why, because you don't like having to miss out on one style? remember single player where you learn one then the next?

 

Give Strong Style the Light Style Lunge and the Medium Finisher (the only two moves that it doesn't already have that are actually worthwhile).

why, those are unique moves to those stances, are you to lazy to switch stances?

 

Replace the Medium Style with a double-bladed saber style (a la Darth Maul. And no, not the nasty hacked one that's in there already). Make this a real, double-handle-length saber. Add all of Darth Maul's acrobatic moves. This should be a balanced offense/defense style, just as Medium was supposed to be. The key to the defense of this style should be evasion, not blocking. D.M.'s cartwheels and flips should be the order of the day to avoid saber strikes

that might be cool but it would ruin all those who like the yellow stance and cause for even more division among players...why not make a new stnace?

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> > All saber damage has been lowered

> > drastically

 

> this is bad? this just makes lightsaber

> duels longer,

 

It's fine for duel servers, but on any other game type, it really, really sucks.

 

I've had situations where the rest of the server racks up 10-15 frags in the time that me and one other guy duke it out in a corner.

 

The problem comes from the availability of shields and health, get smacked once, run around for a couple seconds and pick up some new health and shields.

 

The raven software map and the bespin ctf one are good examples of this. With reduced saber damage, there is simply too much healing power in the maps for fights to last an acceptable length.

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Originally posted by Xzzy

The problem comes from the availability of shields and health, get smacked once, run around for a couple seconds and pick up some new health and shields.

 

The raven software map and the bespin ctf one are good examples of this. With reduced saber damage, there is simply too much healing power in the maps for fights to last an acceptable length.

 

I can agree with that, so just challenge the guy to a duel (default k)

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I must say that I agree with most of these suggestions that ArtifeX writed. The best way eliminate these special move whores is to decrese damage special moves make and increse damage of normal attacks. There isn't much to add thing that have been said earlier... but something must be done for this rageus back stabbing...

 

And one other thing, it would be very cool if players could choose between normal and double bladed light sabers, ofcourse i would need lot of work like coding and making new animations but it would open so maaaany possibilities :D but then again it would be a whole new game...

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ya, that would be sweet with double bladed lightsabers....but i doubt that it would happen

the only problem is that the only thing that would get used would be the double lightsaber....who's gunna use a non-double bladed lightsaber, even if it does have dis-advantages

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Really good insight into Mind Trick, leelink (sorry about the pun).

 

I'll investigate this.

 

 

Originally posted by leelink

I do find it harder to make use of mindtrick, I have actually found a use for this power, although maybe not the intended usage. I personally use to run my oppenent out of force power during duels, most people are usually using absorb, (even if thier not this still works) so what I do is use mindtrick to run thier force down by making them activate thier force sight. once i have them low on force so they cant block, usually after about 4 times after making them use sight, I then use force pull to put them to the ground and backstab them. this has worked well against skilled players such as Xeo, Luna, IdiotSavant, jedi Menace and others. If they dont use sight then I just get in front of them and do a medium stance down up slash, which gets me some good damage and makes them think twice about not activating thier sight. While it is difficult because you need to be aware of your opponents force power, I feel if they change Mindtrick or the cost of sight, it might make this tactic too powerful. I could see maybe a slight increase in the cost of sight, but only a extremly small amount if any.

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"i hate to break it to you but you will never kill anybody with absorb, its a defensive move, not offensive"

 

When did he imply absorb was an offensive move?

 

 

"can you honestly say that you can walk on walls in real life? of course you need force!"

 

Wha? You use force for force jump level 1 anyways, what's your point?

 

"this is bad? this just makes lightsaber duels longer, and as for backstab/sweep think about it, you make yourself vulnerable by turning your back to your opponent, you have to do a lot of damage to make the risk worth it"

 

Lightsaber damage is pretty sad, when you consider every 'useful' gun deals a great deal more damage, either in splash or direct hit. Exactly how is longer duels a good thing btw?

 

You obviously haven't encountered a good backstab script yet :)

 

 

"two words, FORCE PUSH

another one word, jump"

 

Rocket at semi-close range + homing/absorb :) You can also fire rockets faster than can be pushed (no homing though). Jumping is a great way to telegraph where you're going to land. Thanks for showing me where to aim my rocket.

 

"have you ever tried pulling one of these off on a moving enemy? it never hits! because you can't go running around backwards after your opponent on heavy stance, they'll just kil you

and the point at which it does 300 damage is ONLY when the opponnent is hit directly with the middle of the blade, which is even harder to pull off, if you get hit by this move it is YOUR problem, you know where your direction keys are...right?"

 

 

Not quite. The saber moves lag time (where the moves animation is compeltely, but still going on) is where the majority of the damage comes from. While the actual swing is quite powerful, impaling people on the lag afterwords tends to be where the kills are at.

 

"have you ever seen anybody in star wars punch? you'd just end up with a missing hand like in a new hope when obi wan cuts off the persons hand in the bar

besides light stance isn't going to get any better with one hand"

 

Qui Gon punched maul after maul kicked obi-wan down in ep 1. Luke probably didn't punch vader cause the guy was wearing armor :)

 

 

"how about an option to make it manual either a) for the individual or b) for the server"

 

I'd only see this as a way to complicate things. I for one, wouldn't want automated blocking but too each their own I guess (should it even change).

 

"i can do combos in light style, can't you? besides, any slower and it would be impposible to take advantage of the moment, and it will just be a weaker medium "

 

Yeah, I can spam light style in circles with the best of them. However, because the moves finish so quick and saber combat currently promotes the hit-and-run style method, you can't really aim a swing as well as you can with heavy stance. Add to that high block rates and the easy ability to knock back light stance hits, and it's speed advantage becomes less and less apparant.

 

"crouch is supposed to be defensive, not offensive"

 

Says who? Light stance has a crouch lunge attack, and you can throw your saber in a roll.

 

"why, because you don't like having to miss out on one style? remember single player where you learn one then the next?"

 

Right now, you pay more force for strong. It only makes sense that it's the strongest stance (no other force ability do you pay more for less results). In order to say all styles are balanced, they need to be balanced in price.

 

On a semi-random note, you start with medium, then fast, then strong in single play. In order of buying saber styles in multi, it's fast -> medium -> strong.

 

"why, those are unique moves to those stances, are you to lazy to switch stances?"

 

Read the rest of his ideas, duh. He gives the "new" lightstance 2 sabers, and medium the maul saber. I don't agree with it, but you can atleast not take what he's saying completely out of context.

 

 

Oh well.

 

Blank

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Absorb is still to powerful. it makes it a regular duel fight, but consider this, the other person still has force powers, while you will not be able to use yours, becuase that will just increase his force powers, and with as quickly as it can be turned on and off (with no sound que or visible que) it makes it nearly impossible to counter, by increasing the force power it consumes by a small amount it now makes this power still useful, but not overpowering. Artifex is right by suggesting this power needs to be set at the force consumption it had in 1.02... I would even settle for a rate of consumption between 1.02 - 1.03

 

My other suggestion is to remove the sound que from Mindtrick, "Unless" that person is using force sight of 3, then they still get the sound que that someone has used Mindtrick. Mindtrick could be so much more useful as its intended force if you could use it in this way,

 

Think about it, one could roll behind a rock and then use mindtrick making you think he was still there and then attack you from behind and you would never know because you didnt get that Sound que that tells you "hey watch out he's invisible, start spamming your saber and jumping" Unless you have level 3 sight.

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Right now, you pay more force for strong. It only makes sense that it's the strongest stance (no other force ability do you pay more for less results). In order to say all styles are balanced, they need to be balanced in price.

 

Makes sense, how do you factor that into NF duels though? They make it so that all of the styles should be balanced.

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Originally posted by visualTK

I read the recommendations and am in agreement for the most part. A couple of small things I disagree with.

 

1) Making The Light Style 1 Handed.

This doesn't make sense since it is supposed to be a defensive style. I would think the "acrobatic" medium style would be one handed. If you think about it you're opening up your attack options at the expense of your defense.

 

With the addition of more acrobatic moves, Medium wouldn't really need anything else to make it useful. I think that Light definitely does need more useful moves. Also, anyone who does any fencing will agree with me that you can attack much faster with only one hand on the grip of your sword, hence this ability goes to Light style.

 

2) Removing Saber Throw From FFA Duels

I don't think this is necessary. This is just really a matter of awareness. If you watch for it you can block every one of them.

 

Why FFA Duels are so monotonous:

 

1. They swing at you.

2. You step backwards and saber throw.

3. They lose 30 health, you don't.

4. wash, rinse, repeat.

 

Try it. If you stick to this, you'll never lose another FFA duel.

 

3) As for the radical changes, I would rather see them added as new styles than replacing old styles.

 

Otherwise I agree completely and think it those changes would make the game much better.

 

I'd like that as well, but I'm trying not to ask for the moon here.

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Originally posted by Xzzy

 

Agreed, however, I'm not talking about just modem people.

 

Most folks seem to hover around 90-100ms on the servers I frequent. That means you're seeing 200ms go by before you see what the guy on the other end is seeing, without taking into account CPU lag on all three endpoints.

 

Note how fast opponents seem to stand up when knocked down compared to how fast YOU stand up. That's what you're seeing.

 

I just think that making such a blocking system would stress people's network too much. Maybe in a 0 ping environment it would work but with today's internet it just seems like opening the doors to frustration.

 

That's not quite how it works. What they're seeing on their screen doesn't affect you in the slightest. It's only what the server is seeing that matters. If you have 100 ping, then you're 100ms behind "real-time", not 200.

 

Blocking using your crosshair, as i suggest, would be absolutely no different from leading your target with a projectile. That's something that all of us have been practicing since Doom. Why can't you aim your crosshair in the same manner and just not hit attack? I'm not talking about using a 5-degree arc here. I'm talking something more along the lines of 45-degrees with varying degrees of success based on your distance from the center.

 

I'm sorry, but this is the best solution I've seen. I haven't heard one argument yet to displace it.

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> I'm not talking about using a 5-degree arc here.

> I'm talking something more along the lines of

> 45-degrees

 

well it woulda helped to specify that. :p

 

Way I read it in your essay is that it was a fairly small span. 45 degrees accounts for half the field of view so even a 56k could do a decent job.

 

I was never against the blocking idea, heck if it gave blocks an upgrade in effectiveness I'd like to see it because I prefer to be a defensive fighter. I was just expressing concerns over latency. ;)

 

Which reminds me.. has you or anyone put any effort into researching the effect vertical position has on saber attacks? Spectating in FFA and watching on duel servers, you see a lot of people who play with their target circle aimed into the ground, presumably so they can get a greater field of view / depth perception in 3rd person perspective.

 

However when I play it always seems like I hit better when I keep the target cursor high on the screen, or at about the characters eye level.

 

Combo attacks (not special attacks) seem to trigger differently based on what the elevation of the cursor is as well.

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Originally posted by Twins of Doom

i hate to break it to you but you will never kill anybody with absorb, its a defensive move, not offensive

 

You use this to defend yourself against push/pull while rushing your opponent to attempt the same.

 

can you honestly say that you can walk on walls in real life? of course you need force!

 

If you listen to the sound of people jumping during a no force match you will hear force being added to the jump.

 

you say the manual says medium is "acrobatic" but this is the quote from the manual

 

please tell me where the word acrobatic is found in there

 

I may be wrong and read this elsewhere. I'll try to find it.

 

this is bad? this just makes lightsaber duels longer, and as for backstab/sweep think about it, you make yourself vulnerable by turning your back to your opponent, you have to do a lot of damage to make the risk worth it

 

I agree backstabs should do more damage to discount the risk, but the damage is so astronomical that it makes the other normal swings of dubious usefulness.

 

i have tried this, if i stand still and watch my opponent while they are on medium or light stance i still get hurt while i am on medium, light, and heavy stances...ever heard of side sweeps?

 

If you let your opponent get beside or behind you, then yes, you can get hit. I usually choose to keep my attacker in front of me.

 

its supposed to be fast, you gotta be able to take advantage of their situation somehow

 

Wouldn't you exchange speed for controllability? With the spins added into the mix, every swing after the first one is nearly pot-luck.

 

two words, FORCE PUSH

another one word, jump

 

Try that on someone armed with said rocket launcher and Absorb turned on.

 

have you ever tried pulling one of these off on a moving enemy? it never hits! because you can't go running around backwards after your opponent on heavy stance, they'll just kil you

and the point at which it does 300 damage is ONLY when the opponnent is hit directly with the middle of the blade, which is even harder to pull off, if you get hit by this move it is YOUR problem, you know where your direction keys are...right?

 

Again, wrong.

 

1. Ask anyone I've played against whether or not I can land a backsweep on the run.

2. The point where the swing does 300 damage is at 8'oclock, not directly behind--which is easier to pull off than directly behind.

3. Direction keys do little good when you're on your ass after a knockdown.

 

have you ever seen anybody in star wars punch? you'd just end up with a missing hand like in a new hope when obi wan cuts off the persons hand in the bar

besides light stance isn't going to get any better with one hand

 

Again, wrong.

 

Episode 1. The naboo power station. Qui-Gonn Jinn backfists Darth Maul, knocking him onto a lower bridge.

 

I asked for this to be added to the game, not for it to be mandatory for people such as yourself to use it. If you don't like it, don't use it.

 

 

how about an option to make it manual either a) for the individual or b) for the server

 

Manual blocking is already a server option. Don't see many servers using it though. Wonder why that is?

 

i can do combos in light style, can't you? besides, any slower and it would be impposible to take advantage of the moment, and it will just be a weaker medium

 

Yes, i can do combos in Light style. Please reread the section in my saber guides where I describe just why Light style combos are rarely useful.

 

crouch is supposed to be defensive, not offensive

 

It is neither offensive or defensive. Crouch offers no benefits to Defense whatsoever unless the attacker is swinging far over your head or is trying to kick you on a laggy connection.

 

ROLLING is usefull for avoiding hits, but likewise offers no defensive bonuses. I am suggesting that offensive capabilities be added to ROLLING.

 

why, because you don't like having to miss out on one style? remember single player where you learn one then the next?

 

Because if all styles become balanced, then spending more points on one than the other no longer makes sense.

 

This isn't single player.

 

why, those are unique moves to those stances, are you to lazy to switch stances?

 

In case you didn't notice, I actually grouped that statement with the ones following it. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear enough by using a bulleted list.

 

that might be cool but it would ruin all those who like the yellow stance and cause for even more division among players...why not make a new stnace?

 

 

I must say that this is the most assinine, ill-conceived and poorly supported post that I've ever bothered to reply to. You are obviously someone who isn't very familiar with the game as it is played by those who have invested a lot of time in practice and observation. The next time you decide to flame a post by someone who obviously has a better grasp of the subject matter than you do,...don't.

 

Feel free to look me up on the *ASC* site and challenge me.

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If you listen to the sound of people jumping during a no force match you will hear force being added to the jump.

 

It's actually worse than that, you even have a Force power resevoir, I wonder why he thinks it's being used up...

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