ArtifeX's "What Needs to Happen in 1.04"

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Xzzy

> I'm not talking about using a 5-degree arc here.

> I'm talking something more along the lines of

> 45-degrees

 

well it woulda helped to specify that.

 

Way I read it in your essay is that it was a fairly small span. 45 degrees accounts for half the field of view so even a 56k could do a decent job.

 

I'll make sure to clarify that in my article. Also, I was thinking of 50% blocking as a minimum value as long as the attack is coming from the 120-degrees in front of you. The max would be 100%, but that's only with their center mass directly in your crosshair at the time of contact.

 

I was never against the blocking idea, heck if it gave blocks an upgrade in effectiveness I'd like to see it because I prefer to be a defensive fighter. I was just expressing concerns over latency.

 

Which reminds me.. has you or anyone put any effort into researching the effect vertical position has on saber attacks? Spectating in FFA and watching on duel servers, you see a lot of people who play with their target circle aimed into the ground, presumably so they can get a greater field of view / depth perception in 3rd person perspective.

 

However when I play it always seems like I hit better when I keep the target cursor high on the screen, or at about the characters eye level.

 

Combo attacks (not special attacks) seem to trigger differently based on what the elevation of the cursor is as well.

 

I have messed with this a bit, and what i found was that it's easier to hit them when your saber enters their body while the blade is parallel to the ground. That's because your saber reaches farthest when it's perpendicular to your character's body. What that means is that you have a greater chance of your saber clipping through them and hitting from behind if it is swung in such a way as to gain maximum range. This is the major reason the right+attack Strong Swing is so effective.

 

Short version: Always keep your saber pointed directly at them. You'll hit more often.

 

It's quite possible that "behind" is closer when aiming high at their head, which is placed farther forward. That'll take some serious testing to determine.

[leelink]

For those players that are skilled, his suggestions address every issue that I know of and make good compromises. I think his suggestions should be put to use in the next patch. while they all proabably cant be implemented, I hope to see adjustments to most of the things he has pointed out. I play about 2-4 hours a day and can say that his suggestions are right on target to make the game more balanced.

[BrainStorm]

How about an auto and a manual block?

 

 

Keep the auto-block and add a seperate key that would increase the effectiveness of said block but use force power to do it.

 

I'm sure in a "real" jedi battle (wink, wink; nudge, nudge), if you saw someone wind up for a powerful looking swing, that you would use the force to increase your strength and to help you block it.

[Twins of Doom]

I must say that this is the most assinine, ill-conceived and poorly supported post that I've ever bothered to reply to. You are obviously someone who isn't very familiar with the game as it is played by those who have invested a lot of time in practice and observation. The next time you decide to flame a post by someone who obviously has a better grasp of the subject matter than you do,...don't.

 

obviously you are the one who posts before thinking, because if you have ever played me you would realize that i am quite familiar with the game, more so than most people

 

If you let your opponent get beside or behind you, then yes, you can get hit. I usually choose to keep my attacker in front of me.

glad we agree to keep our attacker in front of us, but you still get hit and take damage, and you also get your saber knocked back half the time leaving you open to attack, standing there and not attacking is NOT an option that will let you win

 

Wouldn't you exchange speed for controllability? With the spins added into the mix, every swing after the first one is nearly pot-luck.

maybe luck for you, but skill for other people

 

If you listen to the sound of people jumping during a no force match you will hear force being added to the jump.

there may be force added, and i realize that, but it obviously ain't enough to let you walk on a wall

 

Try that on someone armed with said rocket launcher and Absorb turned on.

No, you don't push the person, you push the rocket, also works with flechette launchers too!

 

now, are we discussion a new expansion pack or a patch, because half these ideas are those that would change the gameplay so drastically that an expansion pack would be needed

 

now Artifex, as you have probably noticed i have added you to my msn contact list so that we may set up a time to fight sometime (do you have msn messenger)?

[Vestril]

now, are we discussion a new expansion pack or a patch, because half these ideas are those that would change the gameplay so drastically that an expansion pack would be needed

 

Raven was willing to drastically change gameplay for 1.03, I think only a few of Artifex's idea's are more drastic than the changes from .02--> .03. Current precedent suggests that they are willing and able to utterly change gameplay.

[visualTK]

Originally posted by ArtifeX

With the addition of more acrobatic moves, Medium wouldn't really need anything else to make it useful. I think that Light definitely does need more useful moves. Also, anyone who does any fencing will agree with me that you can attack much faster with only one hand on the grip of your sword, hence this ability goes to Light style.

 

I disagree. I use light almost exclusively with a lot of success. I don't think it needs more to work. I think it's a matter of style.

 

Originally posted by ArtifeX

Why FFA Duels are so monotonous:

 

1. They swing at you.

2. You step backwards and saber throw.

3. They lose 30 health, you don't.

4. wash, rinse, repeat.

 

Try it. If you stick to this, you'll never lose another FFA duel.

 

Again, I disagree. I've had people try this with me. I wait and block their throws. Eventually they realize it's getting them nowhere and move on.

[Twins of Doom]

Raven was willing to drastically change gameplay for 1.03, I think only a few of Artifex's idea's are more drastic than the changes from .02--> .03. Current precedent suggests that they are willing and able to utterly change gameplay.

 

Many of these changes are extremely drastic though, not to mention how many of them.

Example: Add a double bladed lightsaber, make light stance one handed

 

thats gunna take the programmers a LOT more work than anything they did with 1.02 --> 1.03

[Vestril]

I'm sorry, did you not read his article? It said this:

 

I realize the "Radical" saber fix above isn't likely. More's the pity. But even if only the non-"radical" stuff was done in 1.04, then I think that JK2 would end up much better off in every gametype.

 

About the changes you just mentioned. It's obvious that these are more likely to be in a mod, he acknowledges it. What is the point you are trying to make?

[Twins of Doom]

Originally posted by Vestril

I'm sorry, did you not read his article? It said this:

 

 

 

About the changes you just mentioned. It's obvious that these are more likely to be in a mod, he acknowledges it. What is the point you are trying to make?

 

i'm just saying that it's more likely to occur in a expansion pack that you would have to pay MONEY (so that they make money) for, a patch is to fix bugs and balance gameplay, not add features

 

that was all i was trying to say there

[Vestril]

Originally posted by Twins of Doom

 

i'm just saying that it's more likely to occur in a expansion pack that you would have to pay MONEY (so that they make money) for, a patch is to fix bugs and balance gameplay, not add features

 

that was all i was trying to say there

 

Oh, ok, I see. You didn't really point that out in your statement

 

Anyway, it might not cost money, someone smart and nice might read Artifex's post, and build an unofficial mod for it If Raven was going to implement thos changes though, it would most certainly cost us money to get our hands on, and would likely be in an expansion pack.

[Twins of Doom]

[qoute]Anyway, it might not cost money, someone smart and nice might read Artifex's post, and build an unofficial mod for it[/qoute]

ya but an unofficial mod (with my limited modding experience) i think it would be quite hard to do and wouldn't be as good as if the guys at lucasarts/raven did it....it also wouldn't be as widespread (like the ffa_episode1 map, it's a great map but few people have it)

well, that's just my opinion, maybe it could be done well, i don't know...i don't do much modding

[Moradivh]

I'm amazed by the depth of your research, ArtifeX. Your fixes are imaginative and well-argued, but I think several are also unrealistic to expect in a patch, overly ambitious, and might open up more than a few balance difficulties.

 

For starters, don't hold your breath waiting for those punches and one-handed saber animations. Move these to your "radical fixes" list and pray for an expansion pack, because I doubt Raven's going to waste time making new motion capture sword moves for a game they released over a month ago, not when they're busy working on other titles.

 

If Raven's patching JK2 again, the best we can hope for is balance changes, so keep your realm of suggestions within that. I expect no new art, animations, or special moves, unless they can be easily recycled from what the game already has.

 

I don't think you're far off on the rest of your fixes, though some of them are dangerously risky and theoretical. I also flat-out disagree with many of your perceived "problems" with 1.03. I could go into more detail, but I feel I should conduct a little more research of my own before criticizing. Besides, I've talked enough already, for now.

 

- Blind Moradin

[Quite Jedi]

I am just a demo boy and am getting the game tommorow.

From what I have experianced on Master Jedi AI level was enough to get me going on this topic. I have used the backstab many times in this demo to see if I could understand what it would be like in MP. I did notice that it killed 90% of the time but also noticed that it is pretty slow and if you are lucky enough you "could" jump over the guy who is doing it to you to get infront of him (in the "safe-zone") This is where the classic stance comes in handy with its creative jump attack. So everything seems balanced so far. Since the AI doesnt force-pull you then walk over to you and lop your head off I will not experiance that till I get the game, and im sure I enjoy trying to beat all lame styles of play.

Like I always said....

"If they use lame tatics, you use lame tatics"

If some styles of play (that allow lame tatics to be used) are ironed out the fun elements of the game and its intensity would disappear making JK2 a more serious game.

[Xzzy]

Originally posted by Quite Jedi

I did notice that it killed 90% of the time but also noticed that it is pretty slow and if you are lucky enough you "could" jump over the guy who is doing it to you to get infront of him

 

Usually doesn't work. Call it lag, bad skills, whatever, but usually as soon as the animation starts the user's entire ass turns into a flaming death trap.

 

You have about a tenth of a second to get outta there.

 

Your first mistake is assuming that humans are as easy, or even comparable, to bots. Well it ain't true. I can *easily* get a 100% kill ratio against bots on duel servers, and that number quickly drops to 50% against human opponents, and I gotta work my ass off for even that.

 

"If they use lame tatics, you use lame tatics"

 

Oh yeah there's a great idea, why doesn't EVERYONE use cheap tricks just so we're all equal.

 

making JK2 a more serious game.

 

Sounds good to me. A serious multiplayer melee based game is something I've wanted for a long time, seems star wars is a great place to do it in.

[-thefly-]

Wow, ArtifeX...you really must suck at this game. I can't believe you came up with all this silly-willy nonsense. I bet a REAL player like me could kick your booty three ways to sunday with the light stance....oh wait...i just went to http://ladder.iglnet.com/ and read who won BOTH tourneys...still you must really suck (oh wait, i forgot sarcasm is often lost in text...oh well)

 

Really though, I agree with all your points....i know you've put the research hours into your ideas oppossed to most of these lamers who come up with their arguments as they write a response.

 

I look forward to playing on an *ASC* server soon (and in BIG D no less)....

[Trap]

Originally posted by -thefly-

Wow, ArtifeX...you really must suck at this game. I can't believe you came up with all this silly-willy nonsense. I bet a REAL player like me could kick your booty three ways to sunday with the light stance....oh wait...i just went to http://ladder.iglnet.com/ and read who won BOTH tourneys...still you must really suck (oh wait, i forgot sarcasm is often lost in text...oh well)

 

lol

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Twins of Doom

 

obviously you are the one who posts before thinking, because if you have ever played me you would realize that i am quite familiar with the game, more so than most people

 

 

glad we agree to keep our attacker in front of us, but you still get hit and take damage, and you also get your saber knocked back half the time leaving you open to attack, standing there and not attacking is NOT an option that will let you win

 

Light style does not knock back your saber against Strong style. Period. While I don't make a habit of standing still, it is possible to kill your opponent with collateral saber damage if given long enough. This actually becomes a viable strategy if your opponent is severely wounded and refuses to use anything but light style.

 

And no, if you keep your opponent in front of you, then no normal Light swing will hit you and do damage unless you try to attack while he's waling on you. It's a simple matter to disengage.

 

maybe luck for you, but skill for other people

 

Then lets see that skill. Challenge me. arsartifex@msn.com

 

there may be force added, and i realize that, but it obviously ain't enough to let you walk on a wall

 

Jackie Chan seems to do it well enough in his stunts without force. Oh wait, he must be hacking! mygOt!

 

No, you don't push the person, you push the rocket, also works with flechette launchers too!

 

How to avoid having your rocket launcher round pushed back in your face:

Step 1: Turn on Absorb.

Step 2: Get just out of pull range.

Step 3: Jump in the air.

Step 4: Fire rocket. If pushed back at you, it will be pushed at a point behind you. The rocket misses and you have the opportunity to fire your next rocket which will be fired too quickly for them to recover from their first Push and Push again.

 

Oh, and this works with flechette launchers too!

 

now, are we discussion a new expansion pack or a patch, because half these ideas are those that would change the gameplay so drastically that an expansion pack would be needed

 

Almost all of the "normal" changes I suggested would require nothing other than changing some constant values in the game code.

 

I believe I marked the "radical" changes very clearly and mentioned I didn't expect them to be implemented in a patch, but would certainly like it if they were.

 

now Artifex, as you have probably noticed i have added you to my msn contact list so that we may set up a time to fight sometime (do you have msn messenger)?

 

yes, i do. I'll be online today at 4pm. Do you want 1.02 or 1.03? NF or FF?

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by -thefly-

Wow, ArtifeX...you really must suck at this game. I can't believe you came up with all this silly-willy nonsense. I bet a REAL player like me could kick your booty three ways to sunday with the light stance....oh wait...i just went to http://ladder.iglnet.com/ and read who won BOTH tourneys...still you must really suck (oh wait, i forgot sarcasm is often lost in text...oh well)

 

Really though, I agree with all your points....i know you've put the research hours into your ideas oppossed to most of these lamers who come up with their arguments as they write a response.

 

I look forward to playing on an *ASC* server soon (and in BIG D no less)....

 

ROFL

[Twins of Doom]

yes, i do. I'll be online today at 4pm. Do you want 1.02 or 1.03? NF or FF?

 

what time zone? because right now in alberta it's 4:14 and your not on....

1.03 NF Saber Only (at least that's my preference)

 

Light style does not knock back your saber against Strong style. Period. While I don't make a habit of standing still, it is possible to kill your opponent with collateral saber damage if given long enough. This actually becomes a viable strategy if your opponent is severely wounded and refuses to use anything but light style.

 

Well i don't know about you but if i'm taking colateral damage from your saber i'd stop and back up or use a different strategy....OR lunge attack which DOES almost always either a) knock through defences

b) leave them open to attack by knocking aside their saber

 

Jackie Chan seems to do it well enough in his stunts without force. Oh wait, he must be hacking! mygOt!

if i were you i wouldn't believe everything i see on TV (or movies for that matter)

 

Almost all of the "normal" changes I suggested would require nothing other than changing some constant values in the game code.

 

I believe I marked the "radical" changes very clearly and mentioned I didn't expect them to be implemented in a patch, but would certainly like it if they were.

i belive i made my explanation for that clear in this post:

i'm just saying that it's more likely to occur in a expansion pack that you would have to pay MONEY (so that they make money) for, a patch is to fix bugs and balance gameplay, not add features

 

that was all i was trying to say there

[BigMexican]

i've noticed that of all the people who act high and mighty in this community, artifex is the only one who can consistently back it up. sure, he acts as if he's the best damn player in the world at the game. the thing is, he probably is ...

 

anyway, good luck twins, you may even get a round on him if you switch to heavy stance!

[ArtifeX]

Well Twins? After the match last night are you willing to concede some of my points?

1st Match: (full force)

ArtifeX - 3; Twins - 1

 

2nd Match: (no force)

ArtifeX - 3; Twins - 0

[Bluezman]

Sorry to interupt your flame war with a constructive suggestion

 

I like your suggestions for v1.04, yet have an additional idea and would like to have your and the community's comments.

 

Nowadays most people complain about the finisher/special moves. While red DFA has been nerfed and yellow DFA never really was a problem, now its the backstab/backsweep moves that are being spammed.

 

I actually find the animations are well done and the moves are - unless being spammed - rather cool. There also are some ways to counter them. The real problem is spamming.

 

Probably everyone knows the feeling if you have a real nice saber fight against a skilled player who fights well, doesn't use any "lame" tactics (whatever that may be...) and than you manage to pull off a special move like a yellow dfa or a blue backstab and you finish off your opponent with that. I think it looks and feels really cool.

 

Now what if Raven would make these moves what they were intended to be (I think): Finisher moves!

 

Suggestion:

The following moves can only be pulled off, if the opponent has 30 hitpoints or less:

- blue stance backstab

- yellow stance backsweep

- yellow stance dfa

- red stance backsweep

If you try to perform the move and your opponent has more hitpoints, the animation simply doesnt start. Just like with certain moves that only work if an opponent is nearby. Then with these move you would get your opponent killed (since all of these moves do 30+ damage in the first place. You could have used a regular swing too, but if you want to make it stylish or be more unpredictable or simply pull off a cool move, you can use a nice finisher.

 

One could argue about adding blue lunge move or red DFA, I personally wouldn't. Also one could argue about the value for the hitpoints. BTW: I also don't know if it works technically.

 

I think this would resolve the spamming issue and the 1-hit-kill issue. You simply couldn't spam the moves anymore. When you fight someone and think you have him down to 30 hp, you can try to do the move if you like. If it connects, you have a stylish kill that looks great. The moves themselves are more appreciated because you don't see them all over the place.

 

Your thoughts?

[Xzzy]

> if the opponent has 30 hitpoints or less:

 

And how would you propose the game figures out what your opponent is?

 

On duel servers it's easy I guess, but then again, you don't get many backstab spammers in duels because they tend to get their ass kicked pretty fast.

 

On FFA, good luck. There's no way for the game to know who your "opponent" is.

[ArtifeX]

I'm against anything that would further limit the amount of combat choices you had at your disposal.

 

xzzy raises a good point: you have no idea how many hp's your opponent has. You just have to keep trying (and failing at) the move to test whether their hp is low enough. Use of Heal and Drain would complicate things further.

 

My other point: Why would you bother risking your "stylish" move when a faster, more likely successful swing will do the same job? If they implemented what you suggest, I would quit using the so-called "finisher" moves altogether, as even a normal Light Stance swing would do the same job.

[ldeviator]

There's no way for the game to know who your "opponent" is.

 

Boy that can't be right... The game knows when there is someone behind you and that is your opponent.... talking programmatically, it already knows if there is someone behind you so it already knows there is SOME opponent there... just add the conditional

 

if(opponent.health <= 30) { kill_their_ass(); }

 

Now whether to do that or not... that's a different question.

 

I think I agree with Mr. A that those just shouldn't do so much damage... they'd be finishers then not starters AND finishers...

 

my personal thought that would require more changes then just easy damage changes... one should only be able to be knocked down if they are low on health and then kicked OR if they are knocked down by force (which is too strong I think right now and needs work)... that way finishers really are finishers to those that are already on their way out.

 

On the force knocking down thing... if I have plenty of force AND I have comparable levels of either push or pull (I don't think it's reasonable that a push monger can take out a pull monger and vice versa), being pushed or pulled is still _OK_, but I don't think it should result in a knock down UNLESS they knock me against a wall.. then I think that is reasonable that I fall down (cuz that'd hurt a lot ).

 

But, if I have 3 levels of push or pull over the other guy that only has 1 in either, then I think that how it is now is fine.