Vorax Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 Some of you may remember that I was a big defender of the 1.03 patch. I was instructing people in tactics against the backstab in hopes that it was really not as powerful as it appeared. I hoped we were just newbies to the patch and it would be proven ineffective. I was wrong. Backstab is absolutely out of control now and it really is unstoppable if playing someone who has mastered it - Those that started using it when the patch came out are now absolute experts at it and really don't need to do anything else. - Those that didn't like it, but felt they had no choice are now also experts at it and really don't need anything else - Those that believed it was defendable (me) now know that even with every trick you may have against it, it is still 75+% effective. - Those that commented that people would start running backwards and playing like that....you were correct. I will not comment on the other problems that have been put out about the patch. I still do think that most of it is ok. But this one backstab problem is making the game stupid. To all those that I doubted, I am sorry. It's not easy to admit when you are wrong, but I was. Raven, I have defended this patch to all it's attackers, you are on your own now. Those that use backstab are just doing what they can to win. It works, it works very well. Although it is nothing like saber fighting in the movies, it is indeed the best way to win. Looks stupid, but it works. I have NEVER used it in the game, but I no longer have a choice Raven, if you leave us with this 1.03 patch, then I fear for your investers. I really can't see anyone buying a Raven game again if this is the last taste we have of your talents. I bought this game for 2 reasons: It's star wars saber fighting and it was made by Raven Next time I will be looking for Star Wars only. This is not Star Wars saber fighting. I don't know what it is. The game looks great, sounds great, but the game play is really a single move for good players: backstab I was originally, pre-patch and early-post-patch a very strong player, but now the only really strong players are the guys using pull/backstab...a single move can turn someone from a newbie to a level-lord...that's just not right So, what now for me? I am going to fire up a personal server, add a bot on JM and do nothing but pull/backstab on it until I have mastered it. I sooo want to like this game again. On servers where people aren't using it, it's awesome, but both of those servers will be taken over by backstab soon also ... The game has so much going for it, just please nerf the backstabs!! - Vorax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman3ooo Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 A here by proclaim Vorax an enlightened one. I completely agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 It's odd, but I haven't seen it spammed near as much recently, perhaps because I play NF Duels only?... It just isn't that effective there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank1234 Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 sounds like you need to conform a bit more Vorax. Add absorb, pull, and mindtrick to your force powers and you'll be complete. You'll be able to run when you take too much damage, avoid getting knocked down, and still be able to knock down others not running the same setup. Enjoy. Blank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrEEk_OuTcAsT Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 Better late than never... Vorax is right. I just wait for a patch by the way. I haven't touched jk2 1 week now. It is just freaking boring even if I win because there is only 1 move. Pull - Backstab. And if it is NF... Backstab alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugnate Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 This pull backstab thing is quite awful.. worse than the DFA era ever was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 Originally posted by GrEEk_OuTcAsT Better late than never... Vorax is right. I just wait for a patch by the way. I haven't touched jk2 1 week now. It is just freaking boring even if I win because there is only 1 move. Pull - Backstab. And if it is NF... Backstab alone. Go back and try again, I have never in my life done a backstab, or a DFA--I don't know how, but I seem to be doing pretty well. If you have a server you like we can meet there some time, or you can try the Darkside servers--those are great for NF dueling =) I bet you'd have more fun with me than you normally do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyque64 Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 I completely agree. 1.03 is horrid. I just un-installed/re-installed JK2 and play in the original 1.02. Its hard to find a server running pre-patch, but they are there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallory Ringess Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 I don't really have a problem with the 1.03 patch it's still great fun. . . but only if you find a server without someone spamming pull-backstab. Most of what I've read on these forums is people complaining about the game and the effect of the 1.03 patch. Now 1.03 isn't perfect, backstab/sweep is slightly too powerful and drain has been nerfed while absorb is far too powerful. But the problem on most servers is the people playing. if people didn't spam the moves they wouldn't be a problem but you will always find someone who wants to win at all costs. No matter what Raven do in the next patch (if there is one, from what I understood it was up to LucasArts if raven get paid to make one) you will find people who will exploit any move that will get them fast kills and get them to the top of the scoreboard. Nerfing backstab isn't the answer. What I would like to see in the next patch is * make it more difficult to knock someone down and/or * ability to get up quicker or roll away when you're knocked down Either of these two would stop most of the pull/backstabbing thats going on * improve Drain so it's at least 1 used = 1 drained = 1 healed and it should affect absorb. and/or * make absorb work more like protect so that while it will stop damage it will use force or at least up the force usage of absorb This is really to even out light/dark powers as at the moment once you're opponent has switched on absorb all you can do is run away untill it runs out or attack and hope you get a good hit in and pray you don't get knocked down. For the record i mostly play duels either as Mallory Ringess or Deak Starkiller. I prefer to go darkside with grip/drain but I do tend to change tactics if what i'm using is getting by butt whipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorax Posted May 26, 2002 Author Share Posted May 26, 2002 Originally posted by Blank1234 sounds like you need to conform a bit more Vorax. Add absorb, pull, and mindtrick to your force powers and you'll be complete. You'll be able to run when you take too much damage, avoid getting knocked down, and still be able to knock down others not running the same setup. Enjoy. Blank Trust me...I know all the tactics and strategey for defense against backstab. The problem is, they don't work. Suppose you don't use the pull/backstab, but want to stop someone who is: Mindtrick - helps delay the inevitable. You might get lucky against a weaker player who uses BS, but not against a good player. He only needs one shot at you. Most of the good players that use this pull/stab only have 2 other force powers that they are concerned with: Absorb and seeing....he got ya Absorb - Always standard in my basket of tricks. It is your best defense. Again, it only delays the inevitable against good players. Simply avoid you while you are burning your force...it wears off, they get you. If you try to be smart and time it, it will save you for a bit longer, but eventually, the knock down/stab will come....he got ya Pull - well I always have that. I am very effeicient at knocking people down but I haven't been combing it with the backstab. You have to attack, jump or run sometime, and when you do....he got ya I will concede that not all the pull/back stab users have figured out that they should also have absorb and seeing, but they will eventually, all the good players have. I have tried every possible counter to the back stab. Initially with alot of success. But the move can be done so fast that as more and more get proficient at it, you really have no defense. Initially, it didn't scare me at all....now I know the match is almost guaranteed to be lost if the other guy is a good pull/back staber. If he is, that will basically be his only move and every fight he is in only teaches him how to be better at it....he got ya. - Vorax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leelink Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 Its not the peoples fault, its the game play that makes them play that way. If you want to win you "Have" to backstab, those that dont believe that, have not played a skilled player. anyone who says they dont need backstab to win is Vorax, or even Me 3 weeks ago. I believed that it could be countered but later found that there is "NO" and I mean "NO" counter. Even with protect, 25 shields and full health a back sweep will kill you. this is ridiculous. I have even tried to start a backstab when somone sweep is ending, but there is some kind of delay that prevents you from doing this. Kicking out is BS that some people like to think is true. you might be able to kick out with a less skilled stabber that starts his stab\sweep late. I wont go back to 1.02 because it was plauged with worse problems and anyone who has mastered that version is scarier to me then a person who has mastered the 1.03 version. niether version is safe. the best thing to do is wait for the patch or wait for a mod that balances the gameplay. I haven't played for a week now and there use to be a time when you would see me on 4 hours a day, but now that I know of the unbalance issues in the game it makes it less fun to play. btw vorax, I'm probably one of the best pull/stabers in the game, but of course I get a lot of flak for it and then when I dont use it I get killed by a backstab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 If you want to win you "Have" to backstab, those that dont believe that, have not played a skilled player. You've piqued my interest, my AOL SN is Vestril, please IM me so we can set up a duel and you can give me a demonstration of skilled backstabbing--it could well be that I have yet to have fought a skilled backstabber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leelink Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 Vestril, I will make sure that you get moved to the top of my butt kicking list. there are many in line, look for a thread under "are you elite enough" and you will see I am no Noob. : ) I wont be able to match you until wednesday at the earliest, but you can get some practice on the quake**** duel server against, idiotsavant, jedi menace, and Xeo and \clark\... clark will give new meaning to the term butt kicking, best pull kicker I have ever played and If your real lucky you might get to play revulsion, This player is beyond my skill and I have only beat him twice, but that was before he knew I was waiting for him to use all his force power so I could pull and backstab him. I also have to give a shoutout to legend of khaydarin, although I do not consider him a backstabber, he is still a great player. Practice up, because I will be looking for you starting wednesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMexican Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 i can think of 2 people on the servers that i play on that can backstab well. the rest are just stupid newbies who run into battle backwards spamming, or who push you over and then run towards you backwards trying to fluke a backstab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThingAhMajig Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 Vorax, I always though you were a bit of an optimist. I guess I was wrong. The problems we are seeing now were there since the beginning. I have been and always will be someone who will find the quickest kill with the least amount of effort, and I think the general populace is similar to my way of thinking. Honestly the game does not take ANY skill to master. Anybody with half a brain can figure things out and exploit a combination that works the best (repeat ad nauseum). Backstab was exploitable since patch 1.02. I don't think it’s a problem with patch 1.03, but rather they did not address the fundamental flaws that were already present, which were not exploited to its full potential. I used DFA, pull/push, hack/backstabbing and binding all these keys since the first week into the release of this game. Its humorous to see that people have considered backstab useful now... DFA was just easier to execute hence its popularity. I must agree with you on all your points, but I think your biggest mistake was to give people too much credit. In nature, we are lazy and want the most gains out with the least amount of effort, but your mission has been to emphasize skills above exploitation. Which in itself is admirable but very few people will take the time and effort to master. Frankly very few people have this or brains... I blame bad genetic makeup, it’s their posterity. Now the ultimate question is can Raven balance the game? I don’t think so. Will they make an effort to do so? Well I hope so... Is this game total BS now? Certainly... Since this game is on an express train in becoming what CS is now... I would like to add another move that can be repeated ad nauseum... Which will hopefully wake up Raven to all the holes in their game. And yes Let the some users beta test the patch... You seem a very good candidate to do this actually... frankly i don't care to. I fondly call the move the "Jumping Jack@ss": Bind a key to do the following: back attack and jump (A slight hop will do)... Find a Mob... rush ahead and show them your @ss... press the bind key and you become a flying backslasher!!!! Yes instead of killing 2 to 3 opponents... you can take out WHOLE group of them... MOW right threw your competition!!!! Guaranteed to work... This is the NEXT spam move. I play only in no force servers... Nada... zippo force... Or even better... rush them straight ahead I can still execute a backslash with my face to you. Another hole Raven should look into... You can Execute a backslash without anybody behind you... (did this in patch 1.02... with bind experiments... might be fixed now... imagine if some ppl figured this out lol) As for the new combos... heavy 4 hit combo... absolutely USELESS!!! Overall... I'm ready to throw out this game and wait for Galaxies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Real Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 You just need more practice. I won't lie, I use the move despite how many people feel about it. Yet I believe you either use it to your advantage, or pay the price and die by it. I play alot of good players who know backstab well. Believe me, there are counters, and the fights good backstab players have against eachother are damn hard. You can't make any mistakes practically. They know when to use what and how. To be honest they aren't truly "backstab" players. When against a player their caliber they pull out all the stops, using finishers, kicks, rolls, etc. Usually the easy backstab is against the player who can't defend against it well (Hense we should all practice). I'd go into more detail, but I'm pretty tired. Maybe tomorrow I'll talk more about it. After reading this I just wanted to say that you can defend against the move. Like the old saying goes, Fight Fire with Fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerys Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 Personally, I came THIS close to shutting down my server and uninstalling JK2 today. I actually shut the server down for awhile, I was that sick to my stomach. Go look at my thread on the Dedicated Server Forum for details. I'm just so disgusted with the state of affairs right now I could just quit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThingAhMajig Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 Originally posted by Aerys Personally, I came THIS close to shutting down my server and uninstalling JK2 today. I actually shut the server down for awhile, I was that sick to my stomach. Go look at my thread on the Dedicated Server Forum for details. I'm just so disgusted with the state of affairs right now I could just quit. yes Indeed... The game is a Joke... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorax Posted May 26, 2002 Author Share Posted May 26, 2002 Originally posted by Brandon Real You just need more practice. I won't lie, I use the move despite how many people feel about it. Yet I believe you either use it to your advantage, or pay the price and die by it. I play alot of good players who know backstab well. Believe me, there are counters, and the fights good backstab players have against eachother are damn hard. You can't make any mistakes practically. They know when to use what and how. To be honest they aren't truly "backstab" players. When against a player their caliber they pull out all the stops, using finishers, kicks, rolls, etc. Usually the easy backstab is against the player who can't defend against it well (Hense we should all practice). I'd go into more detail, but I'm pretty tired. Maybe tomorrow I'll talk more about it. After reading this I just wanted to say that you can defend against the move. Like the old saying goes, Fight Fire with Fire. I really don't believe it is a matter of practice. I have had all the practice I could get. I specifically sought out the best of the pull/backstabbers to see what could be done basically since the patch came out. I spent 3 hours just tonight, in a last ditch attempt with an excellent backstaber who was willing to have it me with his worst. I won a few, but ...I am very good at defending against it, however it still was his game with about 1/3 of the wins being mine, and he only used was that move, with some kicks He was surprised and impressed at how well I could fight without using it, but as everyone is saying here, it doesn't matter. Who won? Him. Your last line sums what I was saying...everyone that doesn't want to throw out the game, should learn it and use it, cuz otherwise, they will never be able to keep up with the good pull/slashers. I pray for a patch that stops it. It just isn't saber fighting. I really have no problem with anything else in the game. But some of the stuff listed by ThingAhMajig are a bit disturbing and must be investigated also. - Vorax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenroth Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 Guess I can throw another reason on top of many why I stayed with 1.02 and have had nothing but enjoyment from JKII even with DFA spammers, after all there really not that bad after awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandamus Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 Sorry guys. I enjoyed it for a while, but I got much more enjoyment out of Team Fortress Classic. I stood on the balcony in Bespin yesterday and watched the "monkey fight" go on below; Half a dozen people all desperately running around, backstabbing wildly, backslashing whole groups, DFA'ing, waiting for others to weaken themselves fighting so that they can rush in with a backslash and take both kills, people attacking me though I'm in a remote location with a keyboard symbol over my head... Make this game so that those with patience and brains and skill will win, and I'll try it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooglyMoogly Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 Originally posted by leelink Its not the peoples fault, its the game play that makes them play that way. If you want to win you "Have" to backstab, those that dont believe that, have not played a skilled player. You're right Leelink..if you want the most kills you probably do have to do this. In my opinion you are also wrong about a few things. You CAN win a fight without using any of the special moves. The game doesn't *force* you to do anything. I can use these moves like anyone else, but I *choose* not to because I think it diminishes the gameplay. It all comes down to the players personality and what they think is important. I've played on a server full of good players that don't abuse ANY of the things in the game that are considered unbalanced, and those have been the BEST games I've played. I just don't understand it when people say the game forces them to play a certain way. I think they need to own up to the fact that it is their personality that makes them do it and not the game. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenroth Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 They say that because if you wish to be able to compete and "win" vs just play for enjoyment you have to use theese crap moves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystals Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 I have to agree here. The pull backstab/backsweep is just overpowered. To tell ya the truth I'd rather deal with 50 v1.02 DFA spammers than have to deal with 1 pull backstab spammer. The fact is that in 1.02 you could counter the DFA spammer 98% of the time...the backstabber in 1.03 is just a pain. One other thing I don't like is all the blocking (sorry I know this has been talked about before). Unless your in a duel server where long fights can be fun...it just takes too long to win a fight. Granted some fights are shorter than others...but all in all it takes too long. In CTF servers I almost exclusively use guns because it's the only way to kill the flagcarrier before they speed off. In v1.02 I used saber almost exclusively in all types of servers. It's not that I haven't learned 1.03 ...the problem is that I have learned it and it's no fun. Like Leelink and the rest...I haven't played in a week and doubt I will play again until there is another patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qibbish Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 I really don't believe it is a matter of practice. I have had all the practice I could get. This sets up a red flag. You might be an exceptional fighter, but you can always use practice. Always try to learn from those around you, even those with much less experience then you perceive in them. This is hard to do, and I often fall into ego-centric traps like this, but that is all illusion, my friend. Anyhow, I use a combo of absorb and protect, and it works like a charm. Only 1/3rd of the backstabs ever work on me (and, in a 3 hour session across multiple servers, I only get pushed down maybe 4 times). I backstab most of my kills, but I don't spam the trick on those that I push over. I used to, but now I simply let them get up (or hack at them with another attack). I hate trying to get into position anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.