one-hit-kill moves, should they be removed?

[BigMexican]

well, last patch it was the DFA, now it's the backstab/sweep. btw im basing my definition of one-hit-kill on an opponent with 100 health, 25 shields, and without protect etc on. as far as i know, only the backstabs, DFA and yellow finisher are one-hit-kills.

 

what im wondering, is if they should be left as they are, easy enough to perform for even a newbie with a script, or even without in some cases. this would most likely mean their continued spamming, as a one-hit-kill move is without a doubt the fastest way to rack up kills, and when it comes down to it, that's what 90% of the community's about.

 

or, should they be removed altogether, and the max dmg left at 120 with some of the heavier red stance swings? this would most likely lead to spamming of the heavy red stance swings, but with a much less devastating effect. players spawning in are no longer prone to instant death, and it's a simple matter of collecting a few shields and health packs after each melee to ensure that you dont get spammed in the next one. it would probably make saber combat longer and more involving, but it could also drag things out, especially if players found (and they always will) more lame exploits, and decided to act purely defensively. in such a case, only force use (easily countered with absorb) or some very skillful defense breaking could take down a player interested in staying alive, especially in a duel. saber combat would most likely have to be changed to reduce defensive capabilites (perhaps artifex's selective block-radius idea?) and to incorporate more combos.

 

or, should the one-hit-kills be modified so that they require precision and expertise to execute. neck/headshots could perhaps give a one-hit-kill, but then of course a downwards sweep would be too powerful (maybe?). perhaps introduce stabs and lunges, whereupon a player can take advantage of holes in their opponents defense to take them down. this would make red stance a lot less attractive because of the complete lack of defense available when winding up for a swing. for this to be effective, the moves would have to be unscriptable, at least in a perfect execution. the execution of the move could be easily enough scripted, however its application would be reliant on the players skill. as an incentive against spam, the move/s could have long recovery times, or perhaps inappropriate execution (against a player not presenting the required opening) could lead to a deadly parry, giving the defender an opening which (s)he could capitalise on.

 

i dont think many people will argue with me when i say that this game's main attraction is the saber. hardcore dm gunners are NOT going to pick this game over others, Q3 or UT1&2 would be much better choices for the die-hard rocket-launcher fan. players looking for realism, well there's no way this game compares to the rainbow 6 series, etc. what draws people (and it drew me) is the force and the saber, which are both unique to this game (and its predecessor). they can only be found in this game, and for me have offered a refreshing change from the current cs trend that is rocking the gaming community. to have both of these uniquities (is that even a word? hehe) exploited to the point where there arent really any alternatives (absorb and backsweep, if you use anything else you'll come out 2nd best against equal "skill"), then the game loses its original appeal.

 

to me, absorb isnt as bad as it could be, i do believe it needs tweaking, but it's still able to be worked around. but the one-hit-kill moves need to be seriously considered. from the three options i proposed, i do not believe that the first one is at all plausible. if that's the way that raven go, then they can kiss my patronage goodbye. i would love to see the third option implemented well, but if the move's able to be spammed, then i'd prefer the second option, no one-hit-kills.

 

anyway, that's my opinion, feel free to add/modify anything you want, as this was simply a spontaneous rant, and wasnt really thought out or pre-planned i do think this issue needs some addressing in jk2 though, and if it's not in the 1.04 patch, i dont think many players will be around for 1.05 ...

[cardsharp]

Couldn`t agree more. I don`t like the backsweep even though I use it extensively, simply because I want to win.

It`s far to easy in a FFA to simply wade into a melee backwards and take out 2 or 3 opponents in one go. Also, in duels, you can be as skillful as you like, but one lucky backsweep`s gonna take you out.

Absorb`s really fairly easy to counter, particularly if you have decent phones; Just wait til the sound stops then wade in with your drain/lightning or sabre.

[Dea]

FFA is about racking up kills, it's been like that in every other FPS, and it is in JK2. In duels 1 hit kill moves are easilly aviodable with someone with even the least skill. By far, most duels end in someone making a mistake, and his opponent successfully executing a 1 hit kill move yes. But who wants to watch a ten minute boring duel where ppl just pound there attack button? I don't

 

conclusion: 1 hit kill moves are good

[BigMexican]

"who wants to watch a ten minute boring duel where ppl just pound there attack button?"

 

yeah, but a lot of people enjoy playing them

 

and besides, with level 1 saber throw you can easily counter people spamming attack kick also becomes way more useful, being the only knockdown method apart from saber locks.

 

i do agree about the duels however, with the one mistake equalling a one-hit kill by your opponent. however, the third option i gave i think handles this well. it allows people to capitalise on their opponents mistakes, but prevents it from being the sole move that they use.

[Lucky]

there should be no 'special' moves, all the moves should had 0 recovery and do the same amount of damage.

 

 

Lucky

[Darth Knight]

That would be very boring if they were all the same.

[visualTK]

I would have to agree with just making the moves more precise. DFA is like that now. Someone who times it well will still get the kill, it's just that the bunny-hopping spammers have been eliminated because it really is a matter of timing now.

 

Also, though, along with making the "back" moves more precise I would like to see the sabre damage go up a little. 10 minute duels are boring for most people. If you want a game to be popular then even a noob should be able to rack up a few kills. Otherwise the MP game will *really* lose its fan base. Part of the fun is being able to come into the game new and see a positive number beside your name the first time out.

[tempest8008]

I've posted this before in other threads, but personally I think one hit kills should be the RULE not the exception.

 

 

Blocking should be manual, not automatic; a toggle key would be great.

 

You should have a neutral stance, an attacking stance, and a blocking stance. In the neutral stance you can attack and defend, just not as well. This would be the most common stance to be in.

 

In the blocking stance you can not INITIATE an attack, but you can 'riposte' after being attacked (attack immediately after your opponent does when he/she leaves themselves open)

 

In the attacking stance you have long range and strong hits with a chance to break the block of your opponent, but your defense is weak.

 

All saber hits where your saber passes THROUGH your opponents body, unless they have shields, should be a one-hit kill...including the current light lunge and ANY OTHER SWING, heavy, medium, or light. Attacks where just the tip of the saber hits, or a glancing blow should cause less damage.

 

In that system saber combat makes more sense, but I'd still like to see more jumping attacks.

 

One other point I'd like to make.

 

A one-hit kill should be a DIFFICULT maneuver to perform. A good player should be rewarded by being able to time it to work AS a one-hit kill. The backsweep is too easy to perform, and I have yet to determine WHY they made it unblockable.

 

Other's have posted that attacks to the rear of an attacker should cause more damage. I couldn't agree more. I've lost a lot of duels because I did a light lunge through the back of a backstabber and they completed their move and I died, meanwhile I'd poked my saber through their sternum...

 

I dunno.

The whole thing is getting on my nerves now.

[Sith knight]

One hit kill moves are necessary, the reasons have been mentioned and needed not to be repeated. I just want to discuss how one hit kill moves work. All one hit kills involve some difficulty to perform: one must swing and then forward jump and attack to perform DFA, an opponet is in front of you to perform medium finisher, an opponet is behind you to perform back stab/sweep. Therefore timing is very important in using these one hit kill moves. One hit kill moves must also make so much damage to kill in one hit, and should have a reasonable range of attack. So this is the offensive consideration of one hit kill moves.

 

One hit kill moves should be blocked if it is out of range or almost out of range, so the opponent is safe if he retreat fasts enough. They should also make less damage in the start and end of the moves, the same reason as the blocking. One hit kill moves can be to a certain degree predicted before it starts and the move should be long enough to be avoided or at least escaped with seriously damaged if you are fast enough. DFA is easily observed so even it is spammed before, it can be avoided to a very high degree. It is a strong stance swing so it is quite slow. Medium finisher can be avoided as the swing is obvious and slow. Also you have to move forward to start the move. Back stab/sweep is not very obvious as the move is so fast that if you see it, you are killed. Also it can't be predicted because one can perform it once he see someone behind him and he just stops moving or keeps stationery and stab/sweep. The only chance of survive is the opponent out of its range luckily. This is the reason why ass moving fighters are so many and pull and back stab/sweep are used so often.

 

The longer move is justified as the back stab move should be slow enough to avoid cutting yourself instead of cutting your opponent. The back sweep is an almost 360 degree spinning action so it should not be so fast to perform. Also a jedi can see opponent behind him and do a back stab/sweep, a jedi should also see one using the move in front of him. So the success of the move relies on timing, if you are fast and accurate enough you kill someone. Similarly if you are fast and observant, you can avoid being killed, but not totally unhurted.

[zenroth]

Personally i think they are fine, but I still play 1.02 and have little issue with DFA users.

[Aerys]

There should be no one-hit kill moves in a multi-player game.

[Twins of Doom]

Originally posted by Aerys

There should be no one-hit kill moves in a multi-player game.

 

their could be some....but they'd have to be hard to pull off, and have to leave you majorly open for counter-attack so that if you miss it's pretty much a dead end for your life if your against an experienced player

[Deathz]

In pure lightsabre duels I believe that 1.02 was perfect except DFA. They should have just tweaked DFA to what it is now and it would have been an awesome game. Now everyone, including me use backstab/backswing to rack up kills. At least in 1.02 people actually relied on timing and swinging their lightsabres to rack up kills this way. Now it is all about backstab/backswing. I wish they only changed DFA........unfortunately for me this game is getting boring and dead now . Anyone else feel they should've changed only DFA in sabres?

Time to look forward to Rainbow Six: Raven Shield..yay!!!!!

[Aerys]

I was going to amend my comment to agree with Twins of Doom, but I think I'll stick with my original comment.

 

There should be no one-hit moves in a MP game simply because if there is, lamers will just spam it over and over until they get their kills. They won't care how many times they die, they will just respawn and go back to their spamming ways.

 

Massive damage attacks? Sure! Do it just the way Twins says but one-hit kills are just too much in my opinion.

[Twins of Doom]

Originally posted by Aerys

I was going to amend my comment to agree with Twins of Doom, but I think I'll stick with my original comment.

 

There should be no one-hit moves in a MP game simply because if there is, lamers will just spam it over and over until they get their kills. They won't care how many times they die, they will just respawn and go back to their spamming ways.

 

Massive damage attacks? Sure! Do it just the way Twins says but one-hit kills are just too much in my opinion.

 

just think about it this way, they can't spam it if it gets em killed and is hard to pull off....because it won't be an easy kill and therefore will require skill...something they lack:cool:

[gravioli]

I'm okay with "one-hit kill" moves as long as they are hard as h3ll to perform. The backstab/backslash are just too easy to execute.

[Twins of Doom]

Originally posted by gravioli

I'm okay with "one-hit kill" moves as long as they are hard as h3ll to perform. The backstab/backslash are just too easy to execute.

 

 

that and they should leave you open, because even if they are hard to perform somebody can just script em

[Flash25]

The problem comes from the disparity in power from one strike to another. What happens is, people will distill all the given options until they are left with the one or two that yield the greatest reward. They then practice until they can pull of the techniques at will. Reduce the disparity in attack damage and you go a long way in solving the problem.

 

The real problem with the game is the ability to knock someone down. It is too easy to push/pull or kick someone down. When you combine this with a one-hit kill technique, you get a very one-dimensional, albeit effective, fighter. Sure, I like the knockdown as much as anyone, but it does seem to me the most unbalancing aspect of the game.

[BigMexican]

making the moves "hard" to execute will just lead to people scripting them. they should only be able to be performed under certain conditions, which makes scripts less useful ...

[karismatik]

Originally posted by Flash25

The problem comes from the disparity in power from one strike to another. What happens is, people will distill all the given options until they are left with the one or two that yield the greatest reward. They then practice until they can pull of the techniques at will. Reduce the disparity in attack damage and you go a long way in solving the problem.

 

The real problem with the game is the ability to knock someone down. It is too easy to push/pull or kick someone down. When you combine this with a one-hit kill technique, you get a very one-dimensional, albeit effective, fighter. Sure, I like the knockdown as much as anyone, but it does seem to me the most unbalancing aspect of the game.

 

I agree with the disparity between hits thing... Knockdowns, though, are easily countered... So I don't think THIS is the most unbalancing bit... Yep, backsweep/stab are way too easy to do... I think the easiest way to fix it has already been stated (go back to 1.02, fix DFA)...

 

I suggest though, that the best way to fix it would be to have some kinda stamina system (so for example, each swing would require a certain amount of stamina etc.) and those one-hit kills should not only be VERY difficult to perform (and unscriptable, though I don't have a clue how to script, haha), but should also take up mounds of stamina... This would then not only leave them open to attack, like defenceless, after their move, but make sure that it's hard for them to regain stamina afterwards, since they've used up so much anywayz...

 

This proposed stamina system could go something like:

-Total pool of 100 points, regenerates at 10pts per second or something... Maybe let force heal regen stamina & health to make it worthwhile

-Running takes 10pts/sec, which means you don't lose stamina, but nor do you gain it (so walking or standing still will allow you to regenerate stamina)

-Each hit takes certain amounts of stamina points (normal moves, like in combos, would take up 7pts for light, 10pts for medium and 15pts for heavy)

-If a successful normal hit connects with the opponent's body, then they should take 15-40dmg (for light), 20-50 (med), 30-60(heavy), i.e. more than current moves

-A well-placed sequence of moves, say ones that require the opponent to perform difficult blocking manoeuvres (blocking should still be automatic), should make the opponent use up stamina, like 20 pts or something for each good combo...

-More powerful moves (not quite one-hit kills), but like jump attacks would use up double the stamina of the equivalent regular move, and do 30-60 (light), 35-75 (med), 40-90 (heavy)

-High damage, potential one hit kills would require up to 50 (light), 60 (med) or 70 (heavy) stamina points AND be difficult to perform... The advantage of taking heavy is that it should be harder to block...

-Once you hit 0 stamina points, you cannot run, and MUST stand still for 2 seconds before you start regaining points again...

-Kicks and jumps require 10 stamina points each (but higher jumps and kicks with the Force don't require additional stamina points, only force points)

 

NOW I know that this is really a huge overhaul and stuff, but I think it would add more tactical elements to the game, and this stamina system should not be TOO difficult to get used to... Well, hopefully someone could either program a mod for it if they like this idea, or Raven could try implementing it, cos it would really revive the game from the tragic situation it has become!!!

 

Cheers,

Dave

 

PS. 1.03 force absorb is too powerful!!! It is the reason some saber battles are too drawn out and long... There should also be incentive for people to use the Dark Side more...

[Twins of Doom]

NOW I know that this is really a huge overhaul and stuff, but I think it would add more tactical elements to the game, and this stamina system should not be TOO difficult to get used to... Well, hopefully someone could either program a mod for it if they like this idea, or Raven could try implementing it, cos it would really revive the game from the tragic situation it has become!!!

 

ya, i would say that's a lot more likely in an expansion pack....

 

since this is just a patch we're talking about i would say to make them hard to execute, leave you open, and only when certain conditions are met (like with backstab but more)

that should stop it a lot....because if they spam it and it's hard to hit with and they miss and it leaves em open....you should be happy and go up and kill em;)

[sleekdigital]

This is probably all a pipe dream anyway.... I heard that Raven doesn't have any plans to do any more updating of the game. Anyone else hear anything to that effect?

 

-s

[iceman9722]

Originally posted by tempest8008

I've posted this before in other threads, but personally I think one hit kills should be the RULE not the exception.

 

 

Blocking should be manual, not automatic; a toggle key would be great.

 

You should have a neutral stance, an attacking stance, and a blocking stance. In the neutral stance you can attack and defend, just not as well. This would be the most common stance to be in.

 

In the blocking stance you can not INITIATE an attack, but you can 'riposte' after being attacked (attack immediately after your opponent does when he/she leaves themselves open)

 

In the attacking stance you have long range and strong hits with a chance to break the block of your opponent, but your defense is weak.

 

All saber hits where your saber passes THROUGH your opponents body, unless they have shields, should be a one-hit kill...including the current light lunge and ANY OTHER SWING, heavy, medium, or light. Attacks where just the tip of the saber hits, or a glancing blow should cause less damage.

 

In that system saber combat makes more sense, but I'd still like to see more jumping attacks.

 

One other point I'd like to make.

 

A one-hit kill should be a DIFFICULT maneuver to perform. A good player should be rewarded by being able to time it to work AS a one-hit kill. The backsweep is too easy to perform, and I have yet to determine WHY they made it unblockable.

 

Other's have posted that attacks to the rear of an attacker should cause more damage. I couldn't agree more. I've lost a lot of duels because I did a light lunge through the back of a backstabber and they completed their move and I died, meanwhile I'd poked my saber through their sternum...

 

I dunno.

The whole thing is getting on my nerves now.

 

Sorry to quote such a long post, but oh well.

 

First of all, I agree with you entirely. The backsweep should absolutely not be unblockable. The backstab with Fast style is about as close as you can get to unblockable, and it actually is blockable. Medium and Strong styles have a move that is very similar to the backsweep. Almost identical, really, except for being unblockable and instant-kill. Let backsweep be that. Backstab, imo, can stay the way it is. It's blockable, but tough to block, and it can't really be used to wipe out people at random. If you run into a melee assfighting using backstab you'll probably miss everyone and end up dead rather quickly. Doesn't really solve the force pull/backstab combo, but Strong overhead slash does the same thing in that situation.

 

I also agree that the player should have more control over the lightsaber and more care should be taken to see that a saberist is rewarded for hitting the open parts of a players body rather than just hitting their saber hard when they are in a bad position. I think Fast style would be a bit too prevalent, however, if any swing through the body resulted in death. You'd see a lot of headless chicken fighting, but perhaps that's not too bad. Fast style's blockability vs. sabers should be decreased even further, though, to prevent abuse (e.g. people running into crowds with force speed on swinging with Fast style like maniacs hoping for a lucky hit).

 

About hitting players in the back, ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. For one, force push and force pull seem to be impossible against the back of a target. No clue why, but I've yet to see a pull down or push down at a player's back. Ridiculous. Also, it is entirely too difficult to kill a player who is running backwards. Honestly, if someone is running backwards at me and I throw my saber directly into his back, I sure as hell would hope it would kill the bastard. Apparently all Jedi Knight II characters have Cortosis spines. There's no point in attacking someone who is assfighting because, as you said, you'll possibly get one swipe in before they backstab/backsweep and then you're dead. Maybe I'll try switching to Strong and letting them run into an overhead slash. Generally I flip to my pistol and hit them with a charge shot, but that doesn't work so well on saber only servers. I say go back to 1.02 saber rules, and tweak DFA so it isn't unfair. Saber fights in 1.02 were so...cinematic. I'm no longer in awe when I finish a one on one fight. Instead, I'm wondering where in the hell all my Medium-style moves went and start to get bored with diagonal slashing.

[BigMexican]

best way to defeat assfighters is to kick em to the ground.

 

and im not sure why pull/push doesnt work for you at their back? for me, it's almost a guarunteed knockdown when i pull someone from behind, as long as they're withing a few metres ...

[franktoast]

i couldnt agree more about the damage takin fro getting hit in the back. that neads seroius tweaking. I cant stand people who run backward. i usually just pull em down n kill em....but the whole idea of someone even think about runnng backward is retarded. I do believe there should be one hit kill moves. without them ctf would be stupid. you could easily force run your wat into a base without anybody being able to do that much about it. i believe absorb needs to be tweaked a bit. even if you have absorb on you should still be able to get your weapon pulled. the way itys set up now there r people exploiting the flechette an imperial while using absorb cuz noone can take it away from them. all you can do is try ro push the ebergy or progectiles bak at them which in return gives more force energy and are able to keep absorb on longer. they have to make it so the weapons can be pulled but the person still absorbs force. i like the 1.03 patch a lot. everthing is counterablke except the absorb thing i just explained. thet also need to make those weapns take off more enery weapons points (like 75 or so) so people dont go nuts with them. make it a lil bit more rewarding for the kill like w the rocket launcger. you get 3 rockets and thats it. if you cant hit with 3 its bak to the sabre 4 u.