Stop it.(Response To Artifex)

[fgStratus]

And Vestril, I truly respect your opinions. However, I think that you are mislabeling the problem with backswings. In real life, people act in their own interest. Some people's interests are to play this game for amusement, yet others play in order to win. So let's get into a little game theory here:

Competitive games essentially boil down to strategies. In all games, there are dominant strategies (those that win against the majority of other strategies), and dominated strategies (those that lose against the majority of strategies.) Naturally, players who want to win will always use the dominant strategies. If there is a varied mixture of dominant strategies, then the game becomes very in-depth as each player attempts to second guess which dominant strategy the other player is using and either use a counter-dominant strategy, or even a dominated strategy that happens to be effective against his opponent's particular strategy. These games are generally well-received in competetitive play. However, when you have a game that has only one or two dominant strategies, the total possible strategical variations is greatly reduced, and the game loses depth and quickly becomes repetitive.

Thus, it is the fault of the game for having too few dominant strategies which causes the game to get repetitive. If you had increased the amount of dominant strategies (for example, make normal moves more lethal) then, even though these competitive players would still use all the best strategies, the game would still be varied and interesting because there would be a large amount of dominant strategies. On the other hand, if you were to remove the players who used the dominant strategies, then the game would be reduced from an "analyze my opponents strategies and styles and then use my counter strategies" into a "I'll use whatever strategy looks coolest and so will he"-style drudgery.

[Nill the Mean]

I don't say anything bad and I get called annoying, makes me feel pretty good about myself.

[Nathan Wind]

well said stratus, and you didnt even have to use any ice cream metaphors.

 

nill, you were being stupid and insulting.

[Nill the Mean]

I went back to read my post, call it stupid if you want but I can't see what was insulting about it. Maybe that I said I didn't care that ArtifeX left?

[Spider AL]

You won Jolt? Neat. Congratulations...

 

Ty. T'was a hard won victory, the like of which... oh who am I kidding.

 

Anyhoo, it was fun. Been a looong time since my old JK1 tournaments, I'd forgotten how much I truly loved the tourney atmosphere. Really, anyone who hasn't tried tourneys should give them a shot.

 

I gave you a hard time the one time I ever played against you. Shame you don't remember, it was quite funny, you seemed to be making a point out of trying to kill me before anyone else.

 

If you were giving me a hard time Nill, it's not surprising I should focus my attack on you, is it! Take it from Spider AL, you should always put your most dangerous foe under the most pressure.

 

But I play at least five matches a day mate, so names mean little to me. It's not you, I'm sure it was a match worthy of remembering, but I can't remember them all. I do have screenshots though. Of every match I've ever played, impressive no?

 

Wait up, I'll go look through em.

 

/me trundles off

 

/me trundles back into frame

 

There are about a thousand, so don't shoot me when I say I didn't see you... but what name were you under, and what date was it? I have them classified by date.

[Etz]

LOL

Spider you're impossible

 

Anyway, check your mail at least once a day will you? I want our mod to move >>FORWARD>>

[C'jais]

Stratus, I assume that by "strategies" you mean "special moves" or "exploited moves"? Don't take this personally, but I don't think you meant vanilla sabering.

 

If in a match you removed jumping. rolling, special moves, guns, forces, red and yellow stance, and any height advantage what would then happen? Would it be fun? It would only be you, an open plain, your blue stance and your foe with his blue stance. There would be no moves of any kind, you'd just charge at each other and duel. Like in the movies I might add. i think it'd be fun, but I can see why many people wouldn't think it was so fun.

 

But this is where the real skill comes down to it. And this is where melee games fail: You charge at each other, one person trying to block another's attacks, but by some stroke of luck, he gets a hit in. And instead of standing there hoping to block, he decides to attack back. Now, you cannot have superhuman reflexes and foresee every blue attack coming, and neither can your opponent, especially since it's really hard to see anything because of the light flashes. Sure, you could move around, but then your foe would just keep on charging you with his fire button held down. And he would hit you, because you cannot trust the blocking system in this game, no matter what anyone says. There will always be some hit that would get through.

Who would win? The one who just kept his fire button pressed down and hoped for the best, or the one who tried to block and hoped for the best?

[jarek]

This isnt the first time someone has posted on the boards that theyve decided to quit JK2. This thread has gotten more attention than it deserves.

[Vestril]

Originally posted by jarek

This isnt the first time someone has posted on the boards that theyve decided to quit JK2. This thread has gotten more attention than it deserves.

 

Perhaps, but Arti was a pretty vocal member of the community, and one that contributed a lot. That he's leaving does say a lot.

[icefox98]

You know Jarek, Youre right. I have read all of your whining/bitching posts about this game, and you are DAMN RIGHT. You know, you and Artifex are really right, now Jarek, please, follow Artifex's lead...and quit. If you think this game sucks so much, please. Dear God. Quit playing. And Stop posting messages on this forum. Go back to Quake, please.

 

P.S. The beginning of the post is saturated with sarcasm, if you didnt catch it.

[Fubs]

Everyone says he should "play to have fun", but how do you define fun?

 

Some people play for the sake of playing, run around with a lightsaber killing everything that moves, not doing to well, but enjoying yourselves in the process.

 

that is all well and good, but is only one definition of fun.

 

COMPETITION!

To be the better than the next person, to be the best. To get recognition of your skills, and to perhaps win some prizes.

This is a driving factor for a lot of people too.

 

I played for the competition, I like to use my skills to prove i was better than everyone else on the server. If i come first, then I feel good, if i dont, then i work harder next time. I could play a duel server and win 9/10 games (not counting DFA spammers, the only big problem pre-patch), varying my tactics and not being lame. Those who beat me played with skill above my own and deserved the win, but i would be planning my strategy for our rematch.

 

 

Now the only way to win is to use a one hit kill combo, pull sweep, or just backstab. If you play for the competition, this is the ONLY move to use, and it removes the competiton element. It is no longer a contest of who has more skill, but who can pull off that one move first. If you dont use the move, and play with skill, you dont get anywhere near the top of the scoreboard, and although you know you played more honorably, you know that you have been beaten by a bunch of morons who onlt know how to use one move. Either way, for the competitive player the fun is gone.

 

I stopped playing shortly after the patch, i saw where this would lead as soon as the first backstabber appeared, and my variation in force powers was reduced. I see now my predictions were correct. I only play CTF now and then as that is the ONLY gametype which is not dominated by the lame players (unless its sabers only, which is boring in CTF)

[BlackDove]

Who cares if he wins or if you win. YOU WAVED WITH A LIGHSABRE DOOD!!!!!

[jarek]

Originally posted by icefox98

How did my original post turn into *gasps* yet another "this patch sucks" thread.

 

Welcome to the Jedi Knight II Forum.

[jarek]

Originally posted by icefox98

You know Jarek, Youre right. I have read all of your whining/bitching posts about this game, and you are DAMN RIGHT. You know, you and Artifex are really right, now Jarek, please, follow Artifex's lead...and quit. If you think this game sucks so much, please. Dear God. Quit playing. And Stop posting messages on this forum. Go back to Quake, please.

 

P.S. The beginning of the post is saturated with sarcasm, if you didnt catch it.

 

Read what you wrote. Don't you feel stupid? Grow up kid. You call me a whiner? LOL look at yourself. Brat.

[Nathan Wind]

jarek, it looks like the whiners are more mature than you are, at least what this thread makes you look like.

 

and someone above me reiterates a major point. competitive people are being alienated from this game. seriously. see how many people will be here in a year if this crap doesnt get fixed.

[Norin Radd]

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!!!!!

[icefox98]

Wow. I am dumbfounded. You really got me. Considering you have no idea what my age is, you are reffering to me as a "kid," and "brat." Good show, my friend! Good show! Shower me with your wit and intelect! The logic in your "comeback" was amazing! Your "brat" and "kid insults really hit home, man. Keep up the good work.

 

 

P.S. I would say if someone was post 21 years of age, and still played video games AT ALL, instead of living a life that wasn't being hindered by High School....is a complete and utter loser who should really look in the mirror =). Oh yeah, and the, "Lol look what YOU wrote," witty retort was not short of astounding, either. Keep up the good work.

[Dark Begger]

hmm. well ice, there are people who are older who play JK2 for competition, and they are clan leaders and server owners usually. So I don't think post 21 aged people should NOT be playing games. I am reaching that stage..(19) and have not lost interest in games AT ALL. I still LOVE games. But anyways, you guys should stop yelling at eachother. You will never change eachother's minds, and this will turn out to be an endless arguement. Can you guys please save us the boring flames and just let this go?

[BlackDove]

Jarek, Icefox, pathetic the both of you . It takes skill to fight over the forum hehehe...

[TheDarkSide]

Here's what it comes down to folks.

 

People play a game, games don't play themselves (errr well maybe single player AI does..you get my point )

 

People spam moves, moves don't spam themselves. Really anyone who says a blanket statement of "The only way to win now is to do <FILL IN A WHORED TACTIC>" is playing with the wrong people. You are most likely playing with people who will try to whore you first, and so it is a matter of who janitors or pull/throws quicker. And to claim that this is boring....well BIG SURPRISE.

 

Let me restate my main point: Who you play the game with matters much much much more than what "exploits" are in the game in the first place. Play with a bunch of random a-holes and you can expect to have an unsatisfying experience. Play with a bunch of cool guys (or gals) who have the same expectations as you and feel the same way you do about the game and you will get a much greater fulfillment out of it.

 

If your "goal" in a game is to win in the quickest most dominating way possible every second of the time you are playing it, and you find yourself playing like-minded fellows.....whose fault is it that the game has "bored" you into "retirement"? The game's for giving you the tools to bore yourself, or you for using the tools the game gave you to that end?

 

Quite simply, like most other things in life, the things that are the most fun are those things that you share or experience with people you know. I mean how many of you have gone down to the train station and picked up a few random strangers to head down to the amusement park for a fun afternoon of rollercoasters, water rides and cotton candy? I'll go out on a limb here and say none of you. The reason why is obvious, they could be jerks, mass-murderers, people who think parks are stupid...in general, people who would bring your fun afternoon to a halt. Why would you expect any different from something else you want to be fun, like say a computer game experience? Would you blame the amusement park if those random strangers "ruined" the day for you?

 

To Artifex, I feel some amount of pity. It's obvious he put a lot of time into his site, his guides, etc, and they've done a lot of good to many people. The pity isn't directed at that though, but the fact that he can't enjoy the game in any other fashion then the one he pigeon-holed himself into. It's blindingly obvious to me that if he were to find around 15-20 like-minded buddies and play exclusively with them, just about everything he said drove him away would be nullified. If those 20 guys are all back-stabbing, pull/throwers then you made a error in judgement (which is rather easily remedied)....

 

TDS

[Kiell_Randor]

I have to join what I think is the majority of people in laughing at Artifex and his 'retirement'. I played with him some before the patch, and he was a solid but not outstanding player. I did not play with him after the patch, but I cannot imagine things changed terribly much.

 

His guides make for interesting reading, but by no means are they a 'bible' for JKII saber fighting. There is more to the game than red style. I rarely use red swings at all myself, and I feel comfortable fighting any of the red-style kick addicts I have come up against.

 

But if anyone wants to talk about placing Artifex on a pedestal - he's tried to do it himself, rather obviously. Why else would you announce your retirement from a computer game? If he wasn't seeking limelight, or to make himself into something more than he is, he would just quit, stop posting, and be done with it.

[Solo4114]

I've been following this and similar threads since this guy made his grand announcement, and honestly, I couldn't care less.

 

What's interesting to me, however, is that, as many people have said, ArtifeX's own desires drove him to burning out on this game. I understand that different people have different definitions of fun, but come on. Honestly.

 

Art chose where to play.

 

Art chose (more or less) who to play with.

 

Art chose how to play.

 

The game never forced him to do anything. It never restricted the moves he COULD use, he simply opted to use moves that, surprise, surprise, get boring when you do nothing BUT them.

 

I'll admit, I don't think that this game is really for the competitive community. Not the competitive community that I know, anyway.

 

Most posts I've seen from competitive players have been complaints that "fights take too long now. The ONLY option is to backstab."

 

[Ed McMahon voice] NO sir. You are INCORRECT!! HA HA HA!![/Ed McMahon voice]

 

If the game DIDN'T have the backstab, what would happen to your competition? Honestly. Think about it for a second before you fire off a "WTF WOULD YOU KNOW, N00B" style response.

 

You'd have to play long drawn-out duels. It'd take a while to rack up 20 kills in an FFA server.

 

SO WHAT? Learn a little patience, man. Competitive does not necessarily equal "faster than Speedy Gonzalez after doing an 8-ball." I think the issue here is what YOU want from competition, and how YOU feel competition should be. This goes DIRECTLY to TheDarkOne's point about fun = who you play with.

 

The competitive community sounds (and admittedly, I don't play in it, so I don't know first-hand) like it's made up of people who demand fast fights, fast kills, and fast scores. This mentality is fairly typical in most FPS games, and is usually catered to in this type of game, so that's perfectly understandable. To date, every FPS that I've played has let you kill a guy in no more than 5 hits, if you have a decent weapon. (admittedly, the pistol in Doom took a few more, but you get the point)

 

Maybe part of the problem is the preconceived expectations and desires of the competitive community, and their wish to make this game conform with those desires. You want instagib? This game ain't for you, unless you spam backstab. You really probably ARE better off playing UT. And I'm not saying this in the sense of "F you, LOSER!! Go back to UT!! I'm a REAL jedi." I'm saying that this game, at least in its current form, and, from what Raven has said about how the patch was intended, is NOT about instakills in any form.

 

Folks have said that Raven is trying to alienate the competitive players. I disagree. I think the competitive players, like ArtifeX, are victims of their own mindset. The game is not designed along the traditional lines of an FPS. You're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. It's no wonder you're disappointed. The competition in this game, at least in sabre only combat, is not really about who gets the kills fastest. To me, at least, it seems to be more about who gets consistent kills. Try adopting this attitude and you may find that the game can be fun again. Even with blocking. And even with reduced damage.

 

My point is that with a little bit of patience, you can still be competitive. Certainly, it'll take longer. And whoever hits the kill limit first will still win, so in that sense, speed does count. But honestly, I'd rather win 6 intense, drawn-out, tough fights and be at the top of the scoreboard, than win 25 instakill fights where I used the same move over and over.

 

Now, like I said, I'm not part of the competitive community. My attitudes may be totally outside what the competitive community's attitudes are, and that's cool. But if that's the case, if the competitive community is unable or unwilling to play a game where you actually do have to take 5 minutes to kill one guy, then they're right. This game isn't for them. That's not going to kill the game, however. Nor is ArtifeX's leaving, which is why it's so goofy that he felt the need to come here and announce his retirement, like he's a beloved sports hero or something. No one's going to write a song with lyrics that go "Where have you gone, ArtifeX. Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you. What's that you say, Mrs. Robinson? ArtifeX has left and gone away..."

 

Anyway, I'm rambling here now, so I'm gonna cut this off here soon. I don't think the game will die because the competitive community disowns it, but I don't think that the competitive community NEEDS to disown it. They just need to adapt to the idea that the game doesn't conform to the usual FPS standards. Maybe after that, and after instantly lethal, unblockable moves are removed from the game (since then, the game would be leaving you NO CHOICE but to use them and only them), you'll be able to play competitively. Reevaluate, adapt, and try to enjoy it. If you just can't seem to do so, then don't play it competitively anymore.

 

But please, no more grand announcements of retirement, ok? It just looks ridiculous.

[Kiell_Randor]

Well said Solo. You are very accurate in your observations, in my opinion. I ran a successful team in both Mechwarrior 4 and Ghost Recon that was a part of the 'competitive community'. Mechwarrior 4 was ruined by the patches released in attempts to counter cheating. The patches completely fubared the net code and took the fun out the game.

 

So, we switched to Ghost Recon. Awesome game, great net code. Until the cheating started. After playing one too many matches in which we were shot in the head by an opponent who was *running* on the other side of the map (something technically impossible without cheating), we came to this game.

 

And I decided to do something with my 'clan' which was rather different. We kept things completely internal. We have our own rules on operating (no abusing backstab, or other current game imbalances), and they actually work. And every one of our members still loves the game and finds joy in the endless variations on style and fighting techniques which are possible when your focus is not on running around backwards trying to get that next kill. Much of our fighting is done as one vs one duels, with others watching.

 

What I am trying to say in a long-winded fashion I suppose is, it is all in the environment you place yourself. And it is all in the mentality with which you approach the game. If you remove the substance from the game by abusing imbalances endlessly, of course the fun will be gone. I can't imagine the Ghost Recon cheaters felt great looking in the mirror. The game is like a piano: what you get out of it depends on how you play it.

[TheDarkSide]

Excellent posts by Solo and Kiell.

 

Kiell's experience is very similar to my own. Our JK2 clan was developed not with the intent of organizing a group to take down other organized groups, but to gather a dependable and fun group of guys to play JK2 amongst ourselves. People who feel the same way about the game as we do, and have the same attitudes. I hesitate to call it a clan, because that implies ladders/matches, etc. We're more like a JK2 family.

 

Kiell's last line says it all...

 

TDS

[icefox98]

Solo, Kiell, thank you very much for responding so thoughtfully to this thread, great to see people posting replies with thought and logic, and actual facts to back what they are saying up. Thanks again.