Kryllith Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 Not masterful when brought up against something he's never faced before. Ok, I'll buy that. From your original post it sounded like you meant he wasn't masterful at all in his use of a saber. Of course, maybe if he was a little more masterful then he would have been able to adjust his fighting style a bit better (though Maul probably would have beaten him anyway since he seemed a better fighter overall). Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexandrus Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 Yep, I didn't mean Quai Gon was not masterfull, I only said that maybe Yoda or Windu would have done better, but Yoda does not count because he's 800 years old and had practiced for a very long time, which humans cannot. About Windu, I am not yet sure about his saber skills because he didn't fight any jedi/sith, only mercs and those looked like very easy wins for him, even Jango Fett. Darth Maul was a very good saber fighter if you ask me, he fought with a double saber as well as a normal saber and he almost defeated both Quai Gon and Oby, but he was overconfident in his skills and that lead to his defeat. But the point is Jedis are not weaker than Siths, but they cannot grow powerfull that quickly. Sith have the advantage of being just two at the time, and maybe the dark force distributes only in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwing Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 Originally posted by RectalFury How can you say he owned him? Dooku did run, but he wasn't even injured when he did. He ran because if he didn't like 20 clones would have gunned him down while he was busy fighting yoda. 20 clones vs a Jedi Master? Oh please. Dooku ran because he knew he couldn't beat Yoda. He challenged Yoda to a lightsaber duel because he couldn't beat Yoda with the Force...and found he could barely keep up with him. So he used a distraction, and ran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holo-Sidious Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 Darth Maul: clearly better than both Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi put together. Count Dooku: manages to beat Obi-Wan Kenobi, dis-arm Anakin when he uses two lightsabers and hold his own against the greatest swordsman in the galaxy. Darth Sidious: wait and see his duel with Obi-Wan Kenobi in Episode III to realise that the Sith are much, much more powerful than the puny Jedi. Long live ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcceptableRisk Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 Just a few points I'd like to bring out: EP1: Darth Maul had to seperate Qui-Gon from the battle, tire him out and then only could he destroy him. Obi-Wan sliced Maul in two (while he was still a PADAWAN learner), even though Maul was a fully trained Sith. EP2: This was not a 2 on 1 fight. First Obi-Wan took Dooku, who enraged him into the point of over swinging...Obi-Wan got cut up. THEN Anakin took on Dooku with two sabers...obviously he didn't have the skill to wield them as he lost his arm. Another thing to remember about this duel was that both Anakin and Obi-Wan had been fighting the whole day...at this point they were probably tired, that is why Obi-Wan needed Anakin to take on Dooku. Also, had Anakin followed Obi-Wan's lead, they'd have taken him down. EP3: Obi-Wan will beat Anakin after his turn to the darkside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holo-Sidious Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 Episode I: Darth Maul is only a Sith apprentice (like Obi-Wan is a Jedi one), plus Obi-Wan was basically defeated when he killed him. Episode II: Obi-Wan and Anakin are two of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi Order, yet Count Dooku thrashes them both. OK, it does have something to do with the lightsaber design, but Dooku still beats both Jedi. Episode III: Darth Sidious beats off Obi-Wan, and the Jedi escapes with severe wounds. AcceptableRisk, you are on the wrong side. The Sith Lords rule, the Jedi Knights suck. You loose! Long live ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcceptableRisk Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 Episode I: Darth Maul is only a Sith apprentice (like Obi-Wan is a Jedi one), plus Obi-Wan was basically defeated when he killed him. Uh...the Sith funtion a little different to the Jedi order. Unless Paply died, Maul would *always* have been an apprentice. Palpy knew that Maul was good enough to take on two jedi, that's why he sent him. Episode II: Obi-Wan and Anakin are two of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi Order, yet Count Dooku thrashes them both. OK, it does have something to do with the lightsaber design, but Dooku still beats both Jedi. No. Count Dooku *was* a Jedi. And he beat one Jedi after another, not simulataniously. He had YEARS more experiance than both Obi Wan and Anakin, plus the benefit of being trained by Yoda. Both Jedi were tired from hours upon hours of fighting. (On reflection, days infact.) Dooku was fresh and rested. Episode III: Darth Sidious beats off Obi-Wan, and the Jedi escapes with severe wounds. Where do you get that from? Although it'd be really cool if there was a nice two on one sith fight, with Sidious and Anakin versus Obi-Wan. Somehow I doubt that we'll see Sidious fight though, unless there is a situation where he is really pressed. Lose you do. More poweful, the dark side is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 I agree completely with acceptable risk. Just being a Sith does not make you *own* a Jedi. Dooku would have beaten Obi-wan or anakin back when he was still a Jedi, he was a very powerful one. Darth Maul go beaten by a Padawan Learner, and he was trained to fight Jedi....Obi-wan was trained to fight gunmen and whatnot. And i doubt that obi-wan will fight sideous...if anyone fights him it'll be Someone on the Jedi Council. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holo-Sidious Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 Darth Sidious will fight with Obi-Wan Kenobi in the Naboo hanger after Obi-Wan pushes Anakin down the active melting pit from Episode I. Darth Sidious defeats Obi-Wan with several slashes to the arm (causing Obi-Wan to loose his lightsaber, hence the new design in Episode IV), but Obi-Wan escapes in his Jedi Starfighter. Long live ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holo-Sidious Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 "Always two, there are. A Master and an Apprentice. No more, no less." Point proven. Darth Maul is not a fully fledged Sith Lord. One, he is too young (at only 21 years old), and two, he has not been fully trained in the Dark Arts. Dooku is a full Sith Lord, because he has powers like Force Lightning. Maul can only push things (the battle droid wreak, Obi-Wan). Long live ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcceptableRisk Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 Originally posted by Holo-Sidious Darth Sidious will fight with Obi-Wan Kenobi in the Naboo hanger after Obi-Wan pushes Anakin down the active melting pit from Episode I. Darth Sidious defeats Obi-Wan with several slashes to the arm (causing Obi-Wan to loose his lightsaber, hence the new design in Episode IV), but Obi-Wan escapes in his Jedi Starfighter. Long live ! Yeah...that makes sense...right after Padme picks up a lightsaber, cuts Anakin's legs and arms off, injures him in the head and force pushes him off the edge of a cliff into lava. Originally posted by Holo-Sidious "Always two, there are. A Master and an Apprentice. No more, no less." Point proven. Darth Maul is not a fully fledged Sith Lord. One, he is too young (at only 21 years old), and two, he has not been fully trained in the Dark Arts. Dooku is a full Sith Lord, because he has powers like Force Lightning. Maul can only push things (the battle droid wreak, Obi-Wan). Vader never ever used the lightning...? Are you saying that all fully fledged sith lords use lightning? Maul was an apprentice, but he was obviously capable, and his training was complete. Otherwise, Sidious would never have sent him to wipe everyone out. Dooku was an apprentice...but he used lightning...? Circular reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkum Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 Qui-Gon was attacked by Maul out of nowhere, no Jedi had faced a sith for over a milennium. Maul was vicious, but Obi overcame him. AS for Tyranus, he is more skilled than Anakin(because he never listens to Obi anyway) and Obi, because he was taken by Yoda as his padawan. SO Obi knows of this fact and knows he won't stand a chance against Tyranus without the help of Anakin(who of course doesn't listen and ends up lying on the ground without an arm). If Windu or Plo Koon or any of the Jedi Masters were against Maul or Tyranus, they'd annihilate them. Besides, I think the 2 Jedi vs 1 sith is a way of Lucas showing the growing danger and power of the dark side. "Hard to see the dark side is"-Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Monk Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 at this point they were probably tired, that is why Obi-Wan needed Anakin to take on Dooku. Also, had Anakin followed Obi-Wan's lead, they'd have taken him down Obi-Wan told Anakin that because he had learned the lesson of Naboo ten years prior. Two Jedi can outperform one Sith Lord, watch each other's back. But if they try to take the Sith Lord alone, they will be defeated. Obi-Wan was as good as dead in the melting core, and only Darth Maul thinking that exact thing allowed Obi to win. Also, we don't know Maul couldn't use lightning. Maul was 28 years old according to official sources (Obi was 23), and had been training with Sidious since his youth. However, Tyranus, while far older than Maul, had been training with Sidious for only ten years at the most (he only turned away from the Jedi Order after Qui-Gon's death and the defeat of the Trade Federation on Naboo). Sith Lightning doesn't seem like the kind of thing that they would teach at the Jedi Temple, so it seems reasonable to conclude that he learned that particular tallent only while he was a Sith Apprentice. So Maul probably could use lightning, he just didn't want to. He prefered g_dismemberment to lightning whoring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 One Jedi Versus one Sith does not automatically mean the sith wins, as you imply by your post. I will point out of course the Yoda vs. dooku fight.....Yoda owned him. And Obi-Wan wasn't worried about having anakin with him because he was facing a sith, he didn't even KNOW that Dooku was a sith, he thought he was still a renegade Jedi. He knew he needed anakin because Dooku was a very power Jedi back when he was a jedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcceptableRisk Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 Originally posted by Jedi_Monk Let's see... in SW4, Obi-Wan died to Vader. In SW5, Luke got his hand chopped off by Vader. In SW6, Luke only was able to beat Vader by giving into the Dark Side... Luke was subsequently fried by Palpatine. The lesson here? The Sith own Jedi, period. Hmm...did Obi-Wan really get killed by Vader? I seem to remember him disappearing before the saber struck. Obi-Wan spirited himself away. Luke was a newbie. He started his training *way* after the recommended age...he wasn't even a Jedi when Vader chopped off his hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcceptableRisk Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 Originally posted by ET Warrior One Jedi Versus one Sith does not automatically mean the sith wins, as you imply by your post. I will point out of course the Yoda vs. dooku fight.....Yoda owned him. And Obi-Wan wasn't worried about having anakin with him because he was facing a sith, he didn't even KNOW that Dooku was a sith, he thought he was still a renegade Jedi. He knew he needed anakin because Dooku was a very powerful Jedi back when he was a jedi (council) Good point, didn't think of that. Dooku was one of the most powerful jedi ever, plus, as this was brought out before, he *knew* that he'd be fighting against Jedi with sabers. Obi-Wan and Anakin were much more suited against opponents without sabers. The only true experiance Obi-Wan had was against Darth Maul and his double bladed saber...totally different from whatever style Dooku used. Dooku was completely different to anything they had ever faced. The only reason Yoda won was because *his* style was even more different...and extremely fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted July 2, 2002 Share Posted July 2, 2002 Originally posted by AcceptableRisk Hmm...did Obi-Wan really get killed by Vader? I seem to remember him disappearing before the saber struck. Obi-Wan spirited himself away. Luke was a newbie. He started his training *way* after the recommended age...he wasn't even a Jedi when Vader chopped off his hand. Yeah, Vader didn't beat Obi-wan; Obi-wan let himself go. As for the Luke/Vader matches. Vader didn't want to kill Luke either one of those times. The first time Luke escaped, the second time Luke lost control of himself and that, combined with the fact that Vader didn't want to kill him, allowed him to overpower Vader. If Vader had been fully intent on killing Luke, Luke would have been obliterated... Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentSmith Posted July 2, 2002 Share Posted July 2, 2002 Dooku designed his lightsaber with a curve so it would be best suited for Form 2 lightsaber combat. Form 2 focuses on fighting oponents with lightsaber(s). (A Form in which the Jedi rarely trained it during the Ep II era, Dooku knew this.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexandrus Posted July 3, 2002 Share Posted July 3, 2002 Originally posted by Holo-Sidious Darth Maul: clearly better than both Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi put together. Count Dooku: manages to beat Obi-Wan Kenobi, dis-arm Anakin when he uses two lightsabers and hold his own against the greatest swordsman in the galaxy. Darth Sidious: wait and see his duel with Obi-Wan Kenobi in Episode III to realise that the Sith are much, much more powerful than the puny Jedi. Long live ! Darth Maul was a wreckless sith padawan, just like Oby-Wan was a wrwckless padawan when they fought, and no way Maul would have taken Qui-Gon if this would have ever trained against a double saber fighter. A Jedi Master is still a Jedi Master, canot be compared to a padawan, even if that padawan is Sith. Dooku was very powerfull, maybe even more so than Sidious, or at least with the saber. And he only took out what were the youngest(most unexperienced) Jedi Master, that is Oby-Wan, and the most wreckless padawan in the history of the Jedi order, Anakin. Didn't even beat them all at once, had to separate them. And when Anakin jumped to parry the hit that would have killed his master, he could have been smarter and instead on blocking the saber just cutt of Dooku's head or hand. Darth Sidious is just an old man with a crazy dream(delusion is more like it), he is not powerfull enough to face the Jedi but he is powerfull to hide from them. Yet I still want to see him use a lightsaber against Windu, Yoda or any other Jedi Council members. Anyway, Holo-Sidious, because you think that Sith rule the Jedi, I challange you to a JK2 duel so you can actually proove that it is so. That is if you play JK2, otherwise we'll just have to duel verbally right here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Monk Posted July 3, 2002 Share Posted July 3, 2002 A Jedi Padawan and a Sith Apprentice can't be spoken of as the same thing only on different sides of the Force. A Jedi Padawan is basically someone who has attained all of his basic training in the Force and is gaining field experience before he takes the trials. A Sith Apprentice, on the other hand, is a Sith Apprentice until his Master dies (and usually, it's the Apprentice who dispatches with the Master). Darth Vader was a Sith Apprentice and he's one of the major forces responcible for the success of the Jedi Purge. But if Luke had taken his hand and joined him, they would have destroyed Palpatine and Vader would have been the Sith Master with Luke as his Apprentice (hm... wonder what Sith name Luke would take... ). So a Sith Apprentice is worth more than a Jedi Padawan depending mostly on how much experience and knowledge they have gained from their Master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weapon X Posted July 3, 2002 Share Posted July 3, 2002 Originally posted by Jedi_Monk According to the EU... the ancient Sith were destroyed when a fleet of the Republic descended on Korriban and sterilized the whole planet. The Sith were revived by Exar Kun, who was betrayed by his own apprentice--the apprentice brought the entire Republic fleet down on Yavin IV and annhilated it, but not before Exar Kun comitted suicide so that he could bind his soul to the Massassi Temple. The Sith Brotherhood was a Dark Side cult modeled on ancient Sith practices. The Sith Brotherhood used the Force to wipe out both themselves and the Jedi Army of Light, leaving only Darth Bane alive. It took two planetary bombardments and an act of mass suicide to reduce the Sith to what we see in the Prequels. WHAT THE F*** DO YOU MEAN ACCORDING TO THE EU?!?! you dare compare that to the REAL star wars? GL made star wars and what he says is what happens/happened if he said that the jedi won against the sith fair and square then they did, GL contradicts the EU writers, not vice versa, people need to understand this, Boba Fett is dead he didn't somehow miraculously survive the sarlaac WITH jabba's ship blowing up, if he could't get up from sand how's he gonna fight tentacles and acid? chewie may or may not die, but if george says EU isn't accurate then EU isn't accurate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentSmith Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 Originally posted by ep2 Anakin WHAT THE F*** DO YOU MEAN ACCORDING TO THE EU?!?! you dare compare that to the REAL star wars? GL made star wars and what he says is what happens/happened if he said that the jedi won against the sith fair and square then they did, GL contradicts the EU writers, not vice versa, people need to understand this, Boba Fett is dead he didn't somehow miraculously survive the sarlaac WITH jabba's ship blowing up, if he could't get up from sand how's he gonna fight tentacles and acid? chewie may or may not die, but if george says EU isn't accurate then EU isn't accurate From your point of view perhaps. But not from Jedi Monk's point of view, and not from mine. Though indeed the movies Geroge Lucas made are considered as 'canon' by Geroge Lucas, starwars.com and most fans, they preceed what is written/done in the EU this does not warrant for you to act in such a manner towards other people's point of view. You will get no respect in life if you do not learn to respect others and their views. How can we respect you and your point of view if you will not make the lest effort to respect ours? There are propper ways to illustrate and tell people you disagree or have a different opinion. Many things you still need to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcceptableRisk Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 Originally posted by AgentSmith Dooku designed his lightsaber with a curve so it would be best suited for Form 2 lightsaber combat. Form 2 focuses on fighting oponents with lightsaber(s). (A Form in which the Jedi rarely trained it during the Ep II era, Dooku knew this.) After doing a little google research into the various saber forms I can confirm this. Form 2 is apparently an older form, set out for versus saber conflicts. Quite a lot like fencing, which was why Dooku was able to beat both Obi and then Anakin. Form 3 is what most Jedi trained in, defense against blasters. Obi-Wan is probably the best example of this, as when he defended against Jango's dual blasters. Form 7 is what Mace (AKA Big Daddy) specialises in, apparently if you're a master in this you're fluent in everything. I'm still trying to work out what form Darth Maul used...looked very agressive and acrobatic at the same time. Maybe similar to what Anakin uses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 Originally posted by ep2 Anakin WHAT THE F*** DO YOU MEAN ACCORDING TO THE EU?!?! you dare compare that to the REAL star wars? GL made star wars and what he says is what happens/happened if he said that the jedi won against the sith fair and square then they did, GL contradicts the EU writers, not vice versa, people need to understand this, Boba Fett is dead he didn't somehow miraculously survive the sarlaac WITH jabba's ship blowing up, if he could't get up from sand how's he gonna fight tentacles and acid? chewie may or may not die, but if george says EU isn't accurate then EU isn't accurate ...Much anger i sense in you....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopeingtoplay Posted July 5, 2002 Share Posted July 5, 2002 a douled-bladed sabre doesn't neccecryly give an advantage, qui got would be re-named torso boy if maul and he swapped sabres, darth maul had alot of training with his sabre etc. (read starwars ep.1:darth maul journal) and about it taking obi wan and qui gon to beat darth maul, obi was behind the shield walls when qui gon dyed, it was a 1vs.1 then a 1vs.tierd1 hehe. luke IMO is and was the most powerful jedi, except master yoda. luke was the last jedi and ressurected the jedi organisation after yoda and obi wan's deaths. (after ep.6, read booX) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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