I Pledge Allegiance.

[Jem]

What Madpilot said...

 

I'm sorry Keyan but the fact is that I disagree with you. I need no justifycation for my beliefs and so does everyone else. And the poofs I've heard about god's existance I find ridiculous, I don't believe in miracles and all that.

I'm trying to say this as clearly as I can, with no complication: I don't believe in god.

Nevermind if you find this impossible to think, I don't believe in god and that's it.

 

This belief I have is as obvious to me as your belief is to you.

[Jem]

By the way, the egg came first.

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by Jem

What Madpilot said...

 

I'm sorry Keyan but the fact is that I disagree with you. I need no justifycation for my beliefs and so does everyone else.

 

EVERYONE needs justification for what they hold to be true. If you believe something without proof, you are a fool.

 

And the poofs I've heard about god's existance I find ridiculous.

 

Yet you admit you are no expert in philosophy...

 

I don't believe in miracles and all that.

 

When a miracle is highly visible, you have a situation such that you are faced with physical evidence of a God, and you reject it anyway. However, I have the feeling you could not even name a single miracle I am refering to. Aside from Fatima, which I already mentioned, can you name another one? Without looking it up? I doubt it. I don't even think you are aware of what I am talking about, and yet you reject it anyway.

 

I'm trying to say this as clearly as I can, with no complication: I don't believe in god.

Nevermind if you find this impossible to think, I don't believe in god and that's it.

 

Fine. You can not believe in God all you want. You can also not believe in pigs all you want. Saying you disbelieve something does not mean you have valid justification for your view.

 

This belief I have is as obvious to me as your belief is to you.

 

And yet I have just demonstrated to you that your view is completely unsupportable. It seems that you and Madpilot do not understand the point, here. The belief or disbelief in God is not something personal, not something you "just have to decide for yourself." Like anything else, you must have intellectual justification for your view. I believe in electrons because there have been experiments done that verify their existence. If you do not believe in electrons, you are a fool. Religion, philosophy, these things are often viewed as subjective, personal things, but they are subject to the same logic as anything else. You MUST have proof if you believe in the existence of something. Likewise, if you are faced with proof of the existence of something, you have an intellectual obligation to accept it. Just because a bunch of people think something is true, Madpilot, that doesn't mean their position is supported. Not at all. And as I have already said, formal dogmatic atheism has never won the assent of any significant number of men.

[Commander 598]

Originally posted by Jem

By the way, the egg came first.

 

Exactly what I said!

[MadPilot]

Originally posted by Keyan Farlander

 

EVERYONE needs justification for what they hold to be true. If you believe something without proof, you are a fool.

 

Don't you think it even remotely possible that these miracles are just odd occurances. Just because you choose to take these miracles as proof, it doesn't mean to me that there is a God. Just because we can't prove there isn't a God, it doesn't mean to me that there is.

 

These are our beliefs, you can't just say they are foolish and dismiss them because we can't prove it. I may be an atheist, but it doesn't mean that I find your beliefs foolish.

 

As for justification, that comes down to the individual. My justification is that belief in God would have no impact on my life. I'm not looking forward to an afterlife, I don't want to be saved and I don't want to spend my time believing in something that could turn out to be nothing. I don't believe and I don't want to believe.

[superthrawn]

Alright everyone, here's the deal. I don't want to set up an American Theocracy. I think it would be a bad idea. I was just spoutin off steam, and some people responded. Fair enough. And, while I do not wish to enter a biblical debate about denominational differences, for the Bible says: "We are all one body, we have the same Spirit and we have all been called to the same glorious future. " (Ephesians 4:4) I will. This speaks only of Chrisitans, not of others who were simply too ignorant to learn about him. And don't say they didn't know, because it says numerous times in the Bible that even those people who have not heard of the LORD know of him, for they can see his beauty all around. (I just can't find any of the particualr verses at the moment. So no, there will not be any Non-Christians in heaven.

 

There is no older religion in the world than Judaism. It was first practiced by Adam and Eve, when they made sacrifices to God to cover their sins.

 

To those of you who see science as separate from God:

(1 Corinthians 1:19) "As the Scriptures say,

 

'I will destroy human wisdom

and discard their most brilliant ideas.'" (Isaiah 29:14)

 

About works not being a part of faith. First off, any Non-Catholic biblical scholar will tell you that works are an extension of Faith, not a requirement. The verses you listed were written (Timothy, I think it was, I'm unable to cross-reference here because your posts were on the last page.) as a way to tell whether or not someone was a Christian, or whether they were lying.

 

Galatians 3:26 reads: So you are all sons of God through Faith in Christ Jesus.

 

Now, I'm not saying the Catholic Church was originally wrong. When Augustine created it, it was Godly. As time went on though, and we arrived in the Middle Ages, that flaunted time of chivalry and simplicity, the Catholic Church became a police force more than a form of religion. The concept of faith without good works being useless was forefront at that time, as well as Purgatory. Purgatory flies completely in the face of everything Scripture says, which is that we will immediately go to either heaven or hell.

 

(1 John 5:1) "Everyone who believes that Jesus is Christ is a child of God."

 

Oh, and I will never call a Jihad upon anyone. I've never condemned any of you to hell, or done anything of the sort. It's sad that we've listened to so many Anti-Christian voices so long in the name of Open-mindedness, but when someone says these things from a Christian perspective, we call them zealots and fools?

 

(Hebrews 10:12) "But our High Priest (Jesus) offered himself to God as one sacrifice for sins, good for all time."

 

Why don't I condemn anyone, because I am not better than you. Romans says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, myself included. God will judge you just fine, so I won't.

 

(Hebrews 9:28a) "so also Christ died only once as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people."

 

I offer these verses as an answer to those who challenged me to find proof that good works are not required for Faith. They lay here, an open invitation to anyone to read them, and learn from them.

 

(Romans 10:10) For it is by believing in your heart that youre made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

 

I do good works because I think I will be rewarded for them in heaven, not because I think I need them to make it there, because I don't. This last quote was written by Paul himself, founder of the Catholic way of thinking. There they are, no wordplay, no taking out of context, they read exactly as they came out of my Bible. So, I'll leave you with a few more.

 

(Note: These come from the concordence of my Bible, as summaries of what these particular verses mean. If you'd like to read the full verses, look them up, they will still mean what I said.)

 

(Matthew 19:25-26) Salvation is by God's grace alone.

(Romans 3:23) No one deserves salvation.

(Romans 6:23) Salvation cannot be earned, it is a gift of God.

(Ephesians 2:1-9) Salvation is by God's grace alone.

[LQ.]

In my opinion the only good thing the Bible ever did was to say "Do unto others as you would have done to you" Wether catholic, christian, jewish, muslim, hell even atheists should take those words to heart. They're not telling you to worship a certain way, or to give up any of your rights. All it is saying is to treat other people well. I can bet that if more people followed this the world wouldn't be in the mess it's in now.

[Tierce]

i agree with lizard queen

 

"We are all one body, we have the same Spirit and we have all been called to the same glorious future. " (Ephesians 4:4) I will. This speaks only of Chrisitans, not of others who were simply too ignorant to learn about him. And don't say they didn't know, because it says numerous times in the Bible that even those people who have not heard of the LORD know of him, for they can see his beauty all around. (I just can't find any of the particualr verses at the moment. So no, there will not be any Non-Christians in heaven.

 

Umm..being ignorant is not the only reason why people do not learn about Christ. And when people look around and see the "beauty of God," it may get them to think that there is a higher Being, but without any knowledge, how would they come to know the Christian God and be saved?

[Jem]

Originally posted by Keyan Farlander

However, I have the feeling you could not even name a single miracle I am refering to. Aside from Fatima, which I already mentioned, can you name another one? Without looking it up? I doubt it. I don't even think you are aware of what I am talking about, and yet you reject it anyway.

 

Indeed I don't, that's why I didn't push the discussion on miracles any further ahead...I have no idea what Fatima is...I reject miracles without knowing what they are because I already know that they are based on something I do not believe in.

 

I have no proof that Santa Clause doesn't exist and yet I know he doesn't exist -----------> OMG!

 

(no point in doing a discussion on that last comment, I'm just fooling around )

 

And I'm sure that the majority of people who believe in god do not need any proof.

[Taarkin]

Originally posted by superthrawn

This speaks only of Chrisitans, not of others who were simply too ignorant to learn about him. And don't say they didn't know, because it says numerous times in the Bible that even those people who have not heard of the LORD know of him, for they can see his beauty all around. I just can't find any of the particualr verses at the moment. So no, there will not be any Non-Christians in heaven.

You've surely heard of Mohamed, right? You probably even know a pillar or two of Islam. Well when you go to hell for not being a Muslim, you can't make the exuse "I never knew!"

[LQ.]

Originally posted by Taarkin

You've surely heard of Mohamed, right? You probably even know a pillar or two of Islam. Well when you go to hell for not being a Muslim, you can't make the exuse "I never knew!"

ANY religion/beleif system that says you are going to suffer for not beleiving THEIR way isn't worth spit in my book. If your God(s) are so great and merciful and powerful then it won't matter to them how you live as long as you do not hurt others. THATS why i said to hell with the Catholic Church. Too stuffy and hell bent on Hell. And to heck with all other religions like it.

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by MadPilot

Don't you think it even remotely possible that these miracles are just odd occurances. Just because you choose to take these miracles as proof, it doesn't mean to me that there is a God. Just because we can't prove there isn't a God, it doesn't mean to me that there is.

 

No. When BREAD BLEEDS - that, my friend is one hell of a lot more than an "odd occurence." But as I said, I don't need miracles as proof. It's clear without the miracles. But in the miracles, those who cannot see it without them have their proof. And then they reject it anyway. Don't you see what that means?

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by Jem

 

Indeed I don't, that's why I didn't push the discussion on miracles any further ahead...I have no idea what Fatima is...I reject miracles without knowing what they are because I already know that they are based on something I do not believe in.

 

And with that statement, you have just killed your entire argument. You reject a possible proof without knowing anything about it, because you have already decided not to believe it (for no reason whatsoever). You are putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "LA LA LA LA LA." Argument over. You lose.

 

And I'm sure that the majority of people who believe in god do not need any proof.

 

Indeed. And they are fools for it. But I wonder if they REALLY believe or if they simply follow the traditions and go through the motions?

[MadPilot]

It's clear without the miracles. But in the miracles, those who cannot see it without them have their proof. And then they reject it anyway. Don't you see what that means?

 

Miracles are not proof to me that there is a God. I choose not to believe it. I am not convinced. I can say it any number of ways. Just because you choose to accept it as proof of God, it doesn't mean we all do. Does that make me a fool?

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by Lizard_Queen

ANY religion/beleif system that says you are going to suffer for not beleiving THEIR way isn't worth spit in my book. If your God(s) are so great and merciful and powerful then it won't matter to them how you live as long as you do not hurt others.

 

Thank you for explaining to all of us how a being of infinite knowledge and power should behave. It's a good thing you came along, or we would have been in the dark forever.

 

THATS why i said to hell with the Catholic Church. Too stuffy and hell bent on Hell. And to heck with all other religions like it.

 

Clearly you are in crass ignorance of what the Catholic Church teaches. No one goes to hell for what they do not know. But if you know and reject nonetheless - don't you think that's WORTHY of hell? That is asking to be seperated from God forever, and that is what hell is all about. God does not send people to hell; people send themselves there.

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by MadPilot

 

Miracles are not proof to me that there is a God. I choose not to believe it. I am not convinced. I can say it any number of ways. Just because you choose to accept it as proof of God, it doesn't mean we all do. Does that make me a fool?

 

Yes. In the same way as seeing the experimental evidence for electrons and choosing not to believe in them. But I have a hunch we are not on the wavelength here, because you too have no clue about the miracles of which I am speaking. Perhaps you could name one without looking it up (aside from Fatima)?

[MadPilot]

It doesn't matter if I can't name any other miracles. Thay all sound the same to me anyway, weird happenings that people believe are signs from God. If I don't believe in God, please tell me why I should believe in his miracles.

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by superthrawn

So no, there will not be any Non-Christians in heaven.

 

I see you have chosen not to respond directly to my post. Very well, we'll do it your way. Kindly tell me what happens to all the people who can see the evidence of God in the world, but were never exposed to Christian teachings. They will suffer eternal pain because of something they were powerless to prevent? That is not God's way, and you know it.

 

To those of you who see science as separate from God:

(1 Corinthians 1:19) "As the Scriptures say,

 

'I will destroy human wisdom

and discard their most brilliant ideas.'" (Isaiah 29:14)

 

Not seperate from God, for God is part of everything, but seperate from theology - yes.

 

About works not being a part of faith. First off, any Non-Catholic biblical scholar will tell you that works are an extension of Faith, not a requirement. The verses you listed were written (Timothy, I think it was, I'm unable to cross-reference here because your posts were on the last page.) as a way to tell whether or not someone was a Christian, or whether they were lying.

 

You bet they would, and they'd be wrong. I don't know how they can even claim to be an authority on the issue, considering it was the Catholic Church that set the Scriptural Canon. And the Catholics, right or wrong, would certainly never have allowed something into the Bible if they felt that it went against something that they taught.

 

Now, I'm not saying the Catholic Church was originally wrong. When Augustine created it, it was Godly.

 

The Catholic Church existed long, LONG before Augustine.

 

As time went on though, and we arrived in the Middle Ages, that flaunted time of chivalry and simplicity, the Catholic Church became a police force more than a form of religion.

 

Here you make the critical error of judging history from a present-day perspective. And you make the critical error of not seperating the actions of men (good or evil) from the teachings of the Church. But there is one way (and only one way) to validate your arguemt. Present one (just ONE) teaching on faith or morals that has ever been changed in the Catholic Church. Since you won't be able too, we'll move on.

 

The concept of faith without good works being useless was forefront at that time, as well as Purgatory. Purgatory flies completely in the face of everything Scripture says, which is that we will immediately go to either heaven or hell.

 

I'm afraid you are quite wrong there. The word Purgatory itself is nowhere to be found in Scripture, but that should mean nothing to you, because neither is the word Trinity. The idea is there, without question. See 1 Cor 3:15, for example. "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." In this, Paul tells how each man's work will be tried during judgment, and what happens when a righteous man's work does not pass that test. Scripture also references prayer for the dead (a meaningless concept without the existence of Purgatory). Consider 2 Macc. 12:43-45 - "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin." Gee, I wonder why the so-called Reformers felt the need to remove that book from the Bible? Prayer for the dead has existed since the beginning of Christianity. Christians recorded prayers for the dead in the catacombs during the first three centuries.

 

(1 John 5:1) "Everyone who believes that Jesus is Christ is a child of God."

 

That's about as vague as you can possibly get. Read a few more verses in, there, and you will see that this has nothing to do with salvation. And even if it does, it does not say that ONLY those who believe that Jesus is Christ are the children of God. And for that matter, "children of God" clearly does not have the meaning you are putting to it in this passage. I hope everyone takes the time to look this up in a Bible, so you can see how unbelievably out of context this verse was taken.

 

(Hebrews 10:12) "But our High Priest (Jesus) offered himself to God as one sacrifice for sins, good for all time."

 

Yeah, that's right ... so?

 

(Hebrews 9:28a) "so also Christ died only once as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people."

 

Yeah, that's right too. And again I ask ... so what? How does that prove your point? How does that even relate to your point?

 

I offer these verses as an answer to those who challenged me to find proof that good works are not required for Faith. They lay here, an open invitation to anyone to read them, and learn from them.

 

Yes, and I invite you to explain how these verses have anything to do with what we are talking about. I can hardly even believe you have read the Bible if you are putting forth these verses as your "proof." They barely relate at all. This is what I meant by keeping things "in context."

 

I do good works because I think I will be rewarded for them in heaven, not because I think I need them to make it there, because I don't.

 

You will be rewarded for them, but you NEED them as well. Think of it this way - talk is cheap; you need to LIVE the teachings of Christ, not just talk about them.

 

((Note: These come from the concordence of my Bible, as summaries of what these particular verses mean. If you'd like to read the full verses, look them up, they will still mean what I said.)

 

Matthew 19:25-26) Salvation is by God's grace alone.

(Romans 3:23) No one deserves salvation.

(Romans 6:23) Salvation cannot be earned, it is a gift of God.

(Ephesians 2:1-9) Salvation is by God's grace alone.

 

All those verses are great, but in no way support the notion that good works are not required for salvation. Why don't you write a little comment or something when you give a verse or verses from the Bible, so we have some clue of what you are getting at.

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by MadPilot

It doesn't matter if I can't name any other miracles. Thay all sound the same to me anyway, weird happenings that people believe are signs from God. If I don't believe in God, please tell me why I should believe in his miracles.

 

Because they confirm beyond any doubt that there is a God. It DOES matter that you can't name any other miracles, because it means you don't even know what we're talking about! You don't even know the specifics. I'm talking MIRACLES here, not some crazy people thinking they had a vision of God or were magically cured from their colds. Real, visible miracles, with real witnesses. I'm talking about things like Bolsena/Orvieto, Italy. This is not stuff people have made up, and the only reason to disbelieve them is because you want to disbelieve them.

[LQ.]

Originally posted by Keyan Farlander

Clearly you are in crass ignorance of what the Catholic Church teaches. No one goes to hell for what they do not know. But if you know and reject nonetheless - don't you think that's WORTHY of hell? That is asking to be seperated from God forever, and that is what hell is all about. God does not send people to hell; people send themselves there.

The only people i think worthy of hell are those who harm others. And even then i beleive God gives them as many chances as necessary to show them the errors of their ways. And i am NOT in crass ignorance. I had religion shoved down my throat for 18 bloody years and was, at age 5, so terrified of going to hell, that if i saw someone digging a hole i was positive the devil was going to come up and grab me because i wasn't a "good" girl.

 

Also, according to the catholic church, i am going to hell anyway because, not only am i bi-sexual, but i have had sex with another girl. One way ticket to hell according to my aunts and grandmother. And lets not forget to add i don't go to church, or confession, or communion. Hey hey hey, just call me Jezebel and start prayin for my immortal soul. If people want to worship a religion, then i will fight to the death for their right to do it. I may not agree with it but to each their own.

 

Learning i could worship who and how I wanted was an eye opening experience to me. I still beleive in God. I still love him and do my best to live a good life. I just don't like people who sayy you have to do it a certain way or your soul is damned. If that is true...then let me be damned cuz a deity like that is not something i want in my life.

[MadPilot]

Because they confirm beyond any doubt that there is a God.

 

Not to me they don't. Again, your beliefs, not mine. Do you think a courtroom would accept miracles as hard evidence for the existence of God? I doubt it. I'm not saying your beliefs are wrong. You are perfectly entitled to believe what you want. But I don't believe it.

 

The bottom line is that just because YOU think I need proof for my beliefs, it doesn't mean I do.

 

YOU might think I'm wrong, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I am.

 

You have to accept that I can believe what I want, with whatever reasons I choose.

[Tierce]

I don't think you're foolish for being an athiest, but i think that Keyan is just trying to understand why you are an athiest and how you justify your beliefs...

 

And yes..you have freedom to believe in whatever you want to, but you have to have justification for your beliefs...I mean..how do you come to believe anything if there is no justification?

[Cmdr. Cracken]

I think it's time for us to all agree to disagree.

 

We all have our varying views on life and the etheral. I don't believe in an ethreal, and if there is one, according to your "Bible", Jesus himself said that you don't need to go to church, give confessions, ect. to go to heaven. he said all you have to do is BELIEVE, and live a good life. in fact, Jesus didn't WANT an organaized religion.

 

Second, there's a Gosple, with the words pretty much straight from Jesus's mouth, saying that the you cannot find god in wood, or stone, but IN YOU. oh, yeah, BTW, the Vatican declared that gosple as heresy. intriguing no?

 

Honestly, if there is a heaven, i think that most of us here would get in, because we're GOOD PEOPLE, and that's what matters.

 

IF, and boy, is it a BIG IF.

[Taarkin]

I think Keyan's just trying to say "Saying 'My belief/disbelief of something is totally arbitrary and not based on anything whatsoever' is very very retarded. Almost as retarded as Taarkin's confusing use of quotation marks and the word 'say'".

[Cmdr. Cracken]

I think it's time for us to all agree to disagree.

 

We all have our varying views on life and the etheral. I don't believe in an ethreal, and if there is one, according to your "Bible", Jesus himself said that you don't need to go to church, give confessions, ect. to go to heaven. he said all you have to do is BELIEVE, and live a good life. in fact, Jesus didn't WANT an organaized religion.

 

Second, there's a Gosple, with the words pretty much straight from Jesus's mouth, saying that the you cannot find god in wood, or stone, but IN YOU. oh, yeah, BTW, the Vatican declared that gosple as heresy. intriguing no?

 

Honestly, if there is a heaven, i think that most of us here would get in, because we're GOOD PEOPLE, and that's what matters.

 

IF, and boy, is it a BIG IF.