I Pledge Allegiance.

[superthrawn]

MadPilot, there are but two reasons I feel that I'm right. First off, Faith. No more, no less. But since that wouldn't be enough for you, and it would be a bit hypocritical, I'll explain to you why I believe in God.

 

 

*Note, this will be my own personal testimony and religious background. I use this to show why I believe in God, it does not offer firm, undeniable proof*

 

 

I was raised in a Christian home. My mother and her family were Catholic, my father and his family; Christian Reformed. Obviously, I don't come from a background conducive to either of these denominations flourishing in my home, but due to their own personal upbringings, they felt it was important for their children to learn about God. That was when we found my current church, which is a member of the United Brethren for Christ, similar to Baptist.

 

With that kind of an upbringing, it would have been very difficult for me to not believe in God. That's ok, I've never wanted to. (Not believe in God, that is)

 

I became a Christian at a very young age, around 5 or 6. While I did believe in God, I'm only now really understanding how great he is. I knew that I'd sinned, and that he would forgive me, but I never really comprehended the depths of it.

 

Lately, as I've read the Bible more, and been spiritually challenged (I've joined a Bible Study, I'd suggest it to anyone) I've grown immensly. Secondly, this is where my real reasoning comes in.

 

I'll begin the story at a Youth Rally I went to in Indianappolis put on by Acquire the Fire. There were an amazing number of people there, about 40-50 thousand. The real moment I'll never forget, though, came on the first night.

 

After showing about an hour long multimedia presentation about Christ, put in terms that teams could understand, there was a non-traditional form of an Altar Call. The host asked for complete silence, and it was granted. In the RCA dome, full of 50,000 people you could have heard a pin drop. Then, he asked anyone who wished to recieve Christ to stand, where they were, and scream at the top of their lungs "I want the Cross!"

 

There was tense silence for about five seconds, then the first person did. Hearing those words, the fearlessness, the complete surrender, was the most spiritual thing I've ever felt. Apparently others agreed, because you couldn't hear anything over the ovation for about thirty seconds. For the next three or four minutes the call stood open, and thousands stood. I remember the look on one girls face in front of us as she made her cry. Pure joy. Whenever someone else would stand near us, she would turn to look at them, her face just beaming. That girl is all the proof I need. How can something that isn't real bring that much joy?

 

After the cries had subsided, the host asked that anyone who had just yelled out would come down to the floor. There were so many people there that they filled the floor of the RCA dome, overflowing out into the hallways. There is nothing like it. The stories that were told the next day, all the people ministered to by the live webcast, were just incredible.

 

That isn't my only proof though. The Bible for instance. Written by many different people, it still fits. The ideas and thoughts that are prophesied centuries before they could ever happen, do. God has spoken to us, given us his word.

 

Finally, there is the point that I can see God work in my life. I watch as he does things for me; I pray and he answers. I give to him, he gives back. It's just not possible for me not to believe.

 

For instance, my mom just gave some money to a person at our church who works at a Christian summer camp, even though we're a bit tight right now. A few weeks later, out of the blue, a polling company calls her and asks her if she'd like to come answer some questions about food, and they'd pay her the exact amount of money that she'd given this kid. Perhaps if this happened only once, it could be considered a coincidence. This is just one of many instances, though.

 

So there you have it. It is a bit long, but that's why I believe in God.

 

Oh, and one final thing. I define a religion as a deliberate choice, based on a few known facts and faith, to make a belief about how one's life should be lived, what forces may or may not be behind it, and what happens after one dies.

[MadPilot]

MadPilot, there are but two reasons I feel that I'm right. First off, Faith. No more, no less. But since that wouldn't be enough for you, and it would be a bit hypocritical, I'll explain to you why I believe in God.

 

Your faith in your beliefs is enough for me. You're welcome to believe what you want. The only problem I have is when someone makes a judgement on the validity of someone else's beliefs, based on their own. I have only challenged your beliefs to try and make you understand mine.

[Thrawn]

Ok kids, listen up, and follow me through on this:

 

If the Pledge is unconstitutional because it has a reference to God and religion, then there is in reality no problem with it.

 

You see, the separation of church and state falls under the first amendment. This is all well and good.

 

Until you go back and read the Constitution. It has no mention of religion until the very end, where it reads "In the year of our Lord..." No the fun begins.

 

So, this makes the Constitution unconstitutional itself, and therefore makes the Bill of Rights void since it amends the Consititution. BOO-YAH-HA

 

So, the Pledge can stay, because, as you've figured by now, we're really running a governemnt under the Articles of Confederation! Head for the hills!

[superthrawn]

First off, Thrawn, that is one of the most cocamamy, roundabout, confusing, decidedly strange things I've ever heard. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE!" The Constitution says that "The State shall not mandate an official religion." Including "God" in the Pledge of Allegiance does not constitute mandating an official religion. Heck, "God" these days hardly even alludes to the Judeo-Christian sense of the word. "God" these days basically means any deity, whether it be Bhudda or Money or Jehovah God. Take your pick. The Pledge is by far not unconstitutional.

 

Mad Pilot, I respect what you're saying. Thank you for respecting what I believe, and I understand why you did what you did. I basically made the arguments for my faith (and I assum Keyan too) for the same reasons.

[Thrawn]

It's only confusing if you haven't had a government class in a while, but it does make sense if you think about it long enough.

 

And on top of that, it's a joke, my cloned counterpart.

[Taarkin]

Originally posted by superthrawn

"God" these days hardly even alludes to the Judeo-Christian sense of the word. "God" these days basically means any deity, whether it be Bhudda or Money or Jehovah God. Take your pick. The Pledge is by far not unconstitutional.

 

To clarify, does this mean that you wouldn't have a problem pledging allegience to Zeus, Odin, Vishnu, Ra, Quetzoquatol(sp), Satan, Southwest Airlines, or the Dutch Antillies?

 

On a side note, does this ruling mean that words be declared unconstitutional?

[Rogue Nine]

Hey, I've got no problem pledgind allegiance to Aer Lingus.

[Gold leader]

But the Dutch Antilles wouldn't work. You should pledge allegiance to either Aruba or Curaçao. (St. Maarten is only a minor divinity)

[superthrawn]

Thrawn, I knew it was a joke. I just decided to be like... uh, someone I won't mention, and get very angry with you for saying it. Also, I'm not your clone. I've surpassed you in every aspect. Hence my name: Superthrawn. (Emphasis on the Super)

::Theme from Superman begins to play::

 

I wasn't saying that I would feel comfortable pledging allegiance to Zeus, I was saying that when we say "God" it means what we want. I believe that the ruler of the universe is Elohim, God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob. I believe also inclusive in that term is His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Other names for God include, but are not limited to: Wonderful Counselor, Prince of Peace, Emmanuel, and Jehovah-Jirah.

 

That's what I think when I say "God." If you want to think that this nation is under your neighbor's poodle, Fifi, and that's what you mean when you say "God," then more power to you. Though I doubt many people would take you seriously.

 

::Thinks to self for a second:: What happened to Keyan around here? I was enjoying our little debate.

[Taarkin]

If you wouldn't pledge allegiance to Zeus, then why should someone who believes in Zeus pledge allegiance to God? God implies a monotheistic deity, meaning a Judeo-Christian-Muslim one(I've never heard of any other monotheistic religions), not a horny guy who lives on Mt. Olympus.

 

"But Taarkin! Then he just shouldn't say the pledge, or say 'Zeus' instead!"

I agree.

[edlib]

Or just leave out the 2 words "under God" when you say it,.. which were never there to begin with, and would, (seems to me anyway,) end a world of problems and finally put this debate to rest.

[superthrawn]

Actually, this is the only place I've seen this debate even up any more. I haven't heard anything about it in quite a while anywhere else.

 

I don't think the words "under God" will be left out. Quite frankly, as we approach the first anniversary of 9/11, people are still searching for that kind of security.

 

I don't know if you consider Mormonism under the title of a Judeo-Christian-Muslim religion. I suppose it could go under there, as it is orginally based on a loose translation of the Bible, but they add a lot. Anyway, they're monotheistic too.

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by superthrawn

I don't know if you consider Mormonism under the title of a Judeo-Christian-Muslim religion. I suppose it could go under there, as it is orginally based on a loose translation of the Bible, but they add a lot. Anyway, they're monotheistic too.

 

There is no way Mormonism should be considered Christianity. Their beliefs are way, WAY off from the basic Christian beliefs.

[superthrawn]

KEYAN! You're back! I'd have to agree w/ you on the mormon thing. While they do hold a basic Chrisitan Principle (Jesus being the savior) they violate a TON of others, more than I could begin to mention. But anyway, the point was that they're monotheistic and supposedly worship the same God that I do.

[Keyan Farlander]

I was on vacation, actually. But I've been out of the discussion for a while now anyway, it seems, since you moved on to other issues. I just thought I'd interject that comment on Mormonism, so the discussion didn't go off in a completely useless direction.

[edlib]

I saw this one last night:

 

Homer opens door. Kang and Kodos are standing outside.

 

Homer: "Oh great,.. Mormons!"

[superthrawn]

Actually, one of my favorite people is a Mormon. Orson Scott Card, the author of Ender's Game and it's sequels, as well as many other amazing books, is my favorite of all time. He does books on Faith, too. I read Rebekah, which is about the biblical Rebekah from Genesis. He wrote it is a fiction book, but based the whole thing out of the Bible. Kept me captivated until I finished it. So I'm not anti-mormon or anything, I just really disagree with what he believes it. Just sayin this for the same reason keyan said... to make sure we can keep this going in a somewhat worthwhile direction. I think people have given up on it though.

[Keyan Farlander]

Now, don't get me wrong, here - I like Card's books (Speaker for the Dead is one of my favorite books) - but describing him as "one of my favorite people" would be going, like, way too far. Do you know him personally or something?

[superthrawn]

Well, no techinically I don't know him *personally.* Perhaps it's just my 'writer's sense,' but I'm usually able to tell a lot about an author from what they write or don't write in a book. And I've read so much Card that I do feel like I know him. So that's what I meant when I said "favorite people."