I Pledge Allegiance.

[Taarkin]

Eh? I'm not seeing new posts on this thread.

[superthrawn]

Personally, though it may not appear that way, I agree with Keyan. You must have justifacation for what you believe. If you can arbitrarily decide your beliefs, you must be a god, for only a god can do things because that is what they feel like doing, and get away with it. But, if you are a god, shouldn't you then deny your own existence?

 

Keyan, I reply directly to you now. Read these verses. There is no denying it.

 

Romans 11:6. And if they are saved by God's kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God's wonderful kindness would not be what it really is--free and undeserved.

 

Romans 3:23-28"For all have sinned, all fall short of God's glorious standard." (As such, the wages of sin is death. Everyone sins, and the only way to be forgiven of those sins is by faith in Jesus. There won't be non-Chrstians in heaven.) "Yet now God in his gracious kindness declares us not guilty. He has done this through Christ Jesus, who has freed us by taking away our sins. For God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy God's anger against us. We are made right with God when we believe that Jesus shed his blood, sacrificing his life for us. God was being entirely fair and just when he did not punish those who sinned in former times. (speaking of the Orthodox Jews) And he is entirely fair and just in present time when he declares sinners to be right in his sight because they believe in Jesus.

"Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accpeted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds. It is based on our faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law."

 

What exactly can you say to that?

 

Really though, this is mostly just a technical debate. I believe that even if you think that you need works, if you have confessed with your moutht that Jesus is Lord, and believe with your heart, then you will be saved. (the only one of my verses you chose not to respond to, I noticed.) I do disagree with a few of the Catholic practices, such as Purgatory (which we've already been over) pennance for sins, (if God has seperated us from our sins, why do we need someone to tell us what we must do to be forgiven for them, for we already are?) and praying to saints. (Jesus said "I am the truth, the light and the way. None shall come to the Father except through me." Why pray to the saints?)

 

Lizard_Queen, I feel so sorry for you. You have been lied to. Your aunts and grandmother... they have misled you. Right now, if you so choose, you could be clear of every single sin you've ever made. Regardless of what Keyan says about Mortal Sins (all sin is mortal, else Adam and Eve, who had not knowledge of right and wrong wouldn't have sinned when they ate from the tree. Paul also said in Romans that even before the Law said what was a sin or not, there was still sin, and it still led to death, even though there was no law.) All you have to do is talk to God. Tell him you've sinned, and that you're sorry. Tell him you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and that he was resurrected. Then believe. You've seen all the scripture I've posted on this topic, and even though this is between you and God, and you may not make a decision, I'd at least suggest you start reading the Bible again. You'll find so many wonderful things God has in store for you. ("For I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord. Plans to prosper you, and not harm you. To give you a future, and a hope." One of my favorite verses.) Just remember, all sin is forgivable. Jesus loves you, and understands you. He wants you as a child more than you'll ever know. The final truth though-- a good life exclusively will not get you to heaven. Eternity is like a restaraunt... Would you like smoking or non-smoking?

 

Keyan, I have a question. What exactly was the Bolsena/Orvieto incident? I'm familiar with Fatima, and I'm personally a believer in those sorts of miracles, (as well as the more common, everyday kind, like my life.) but I've never heard of that one. Would you care to give a short explanation?

 

I posted all those verses (the ones you replied to with "so?") because they state that Jesus did this to take away our sins. Not Jesus did this and then if we do good as well, then our sins will be taken away. It's like the Newsboys wrote in one of their songs:

"He doesn't love us for who we are

He loves us for who He is."

 

Or like the Audio Adrenaline song, Underdog says:

 

"I'm in this race to win a prize

The odds are against me

The world has plans for my demise

But what they don't see

Is that the winner is not judged by his small size

But by the substitute he picks to run the race

And mine's already won."

 

Not, mines won if I do enough good things, but is won, and it's already over.

[MadPilot]

Eh? I'm not seeing new posts on this thread.

 

I see new posts, but not at the bottom of the page. The new posts are, for some reason, being put half way down page 4.

[MadPilot]

Maybe if we get the thread onto page 5 this bug will be fixed.

 

---EDIT---

 

Or perhaps not, the old threads are still being placed after the new ones. This is one hell of a bug.

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by Lizard_Queen

The only people i think worthy of hell are those who harm others. And even then i beleive God gives them as many chances as necessary to show them the errors of their ways. And i am NOT in crass ignorance. I had religion shoved down my throat for 18 bloody years and was, at age 5, so terrified of going to hell, that if i saw someone digging a hole i was positive the devil was going to come up and grab me because i wasn't a "good" girl.

 

Then you were taught incorrectly - simple as that.

 

Also, according to the catholic church, i am going to hell anyway because, not only am i bi-sexual, but i have had sex with another girl.

 

The Church judges no individual, but rather leaves that to God. "Having sex" with a another girl is without a doubt worthy of hell, but unless you understood that that action was wrong at the time, you did not commit a mortal sin. Remember that three things must be true for a person to commit a mortal sin. 1.) The actoin must be gravely wrong. 2.) The person must know that it is gravely wrong. 3.) The person must give consent of the will to the action.

 

One way ticket to hell according to my aunts and grandmother.

 

Your aunts and grandmother are not your judges either, nor do they have any other authority in Catholic Church.

 

And lets not forget to add i don't go to church, or confession, or communion.

 

I believe I covered that above. But it's never too late, is it? A few minutes in the Confessional can work wonders for the soul.

 

Hey hey hey, just call me Jezebel and start prayin for my immortal soul.

 

Sure, and maybe I'll throw in a couple days of fasting for you, too.

 

Learning i could worship who and how I wanted was an eye opening experience to me. I still beleive in God. I still love him and do my best to live a good life.

 

That's a good start.

 

I just don't like people who sayy you have to do it a certain way or your soul is damned.

 

It is not "people", but God himself who has said this. Remember, if we truly love God, we must keep his commands. These are not arbitrary things, but were givin to us in our best interests, so that we may live the most holy and happy lives possible. So we obey out of self-love as well.

 

If that is true...then let me be damned cuz a deity like that is not something i want in my life.

 

A deity like what? One who knows what is best for you, indeed who knew everything about you billions of years before you were conceived, and even now sustains you, moment to moment? One who suffered death on a cross so that you might be free of your wrongdoings? Do not you see the logic, of following his laws, which were created not out of spite, but out of love for the world? Have you not gratitude for your very life?

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by MadPilot

What is it you hope to acheive by questioning people's beliefs? Do you want to convert us? Do you want us to admit we're wrong? Because I can assure you it just isn't going to happen.

 

No - as you said, people will do and think what they wish, regardless of the circumstances. My hope is simply to get you to think a little in ways you never have, or never have much. To put forth a challenge to occupy your mind for a little while. To have a real debate, instead of the "HA HA WE ARE ALL CRAZY" that has sadly become the norm for these forums.

 

You keep saying that I have to be intellectually honest with myself about the existence of God and I feel I am. You can't force someone to believe something.

 

But by your own admission, you are not aware of most of the relevant details. Our discussion seems to be going nowhere, because you are not responding to what I have written, but reacting as if I have somehow challenged your freedom. I'm talking about philosophical and theological details, and nobody (with the exception of superthrawn) has engaged on that level. I'm trying to get into serious specifics, which is where it gets interesting, but almost nobody else seems to want to go there.

 

Is it just me or are other people avoiding this thread? I think this discussion is getting rather stagnant with so few people still involved. Does anyone else think that belief is about freedom and not justification? Does anyone else think I'm foolish for not believing in God? Does anyone else support Keyan's views?

 

Again, freedom is not the issue. No one questions your freedom to do and think as you wish. But the whole point is that just because you are free to think something, that doesn't make it true. That doesn't mean it makes sense. It does not free you from the responsibility of logic. Does anyone support my views? Anyone who understands the basics of philosophy does. The point is not so much WHAT the truth is, but that there is a truth, and we need to seek it out correctly and with objectivity. If I am trying to convice you of anything, it is not so much that there is a God, but that you must use reason, logic, and observation to guide you in what you hold true, and not hold a belief and claim it is reasonable because you have freedom. What I am trying to drive home is that grand, philosophical things are subject to the same criteria for truth that regular, down to earth things are.

[Keyan Farlander]

Hmm ... my posts don't seem to be showing up in this thread...

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by MadPilot

 

Not to me they don't.

 

But since you don't even know what they are, well, that pretty much says it all, doesn't it?

 

Again, your beliefs, not mine.

 

Not, my "beliefs," but the result of intellectual honesty to myself. The above quote demonstrates that you have made no attempt to read and understand what I have written, because I have gone over this several times now. You are simply reacting without considering my words.

 

Do you think a courtroom would accept miracles as hard evidence for the existence of God? I doubt it.

 

A legal court does not have that kind of juristiction. But a "court" of sorts did, in the case of the Bolsena/Orvieto incident, and not only that, was able to know specific things about God (in particular to show the heresy of Berengarianism). And to this day, we celebrate the Feast of Corpus Christi, in commemoration of that Miracle.

 

I'm not saying your beliefs are wrong. You are perfectly entitled to believe what you want. But I don't believe it.

 

How many times must I go through this? These are not arbitrary beliefs, this is not what I have decided to believe, it is the only thing that the truly open and thinking mind can accept given the evidence.

 

The bottom line is that just because YOU think I need proof for my beliefs, it doesn't mean I do.

 

YOU might think I'm wrong, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I am.

 

You have to accept that I can believe what I want, with whatever reasons I choose.

 

But you have no reasons. Oh, you have every right to believe whatever you want. That doesn't mean it makes any sense whatsoever. You also have the right to disbelieve the existence of electrons. It doesn't mean you have any reason to do so, and I highly question your objectivity if you do. What YOU need to accept is that you have a responsibility, as a thinking person, to accept that which is clearly true, regardless of what you want to believe or how you feel about it. Don't you see? This issue is bigger than yourself. It's not a personal decision, like picking out drapes; it's an issue of objective, universal truth.

[LQ.]

Keyan...I beleive in God. I am damned grateful everyday that i wake up still breathing. To me, God is an all loving being who doesn't beleive i deserve hell for sleeping with another girl or for not going to church. I was forced so often to go and condmed for not that church leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If i go to a service I would go to a Unitarian One. THOSE are what a worship service should be. It doesn't matter how often i go to church, or how much money i give; what it comes down to is living a good life and doing your best to help others. Yes we will sin. Yes we will be sorry for them. And yes, god will forgive anything. In all honest, i do not even really beleive in hell. The whole thing about fire, brimstone and eternal suffering was a concept made by the church and yes, i have proof of that.

 

You hold the good argument for your beleifs and I applaud you. Even admire you. But, they are not, and will not ever be my beleifs again. I am sorry if i tried to make you think differently; I had no right to do that. Good night and i hope you have a nice life.

[Redwing]

Too many arguments in this thread...more than anyone can handle except Keyan really...*looks at his multiple-quote uber-long double-triple posts* 0.o

 

The time warp dun help either... ¬_¬

 

I'll just answer the current overall (apparently) question of this thread: Is there a God?

 

I believe the answer is yes.

 

Why?

 

Because that's the only good explanation for this universe and life itself. Everything fits together far too perfectly. Something had to have designed all this stuff. There had to have been a driving force to make all this stuff come to be. Why must that be God? Because He is the only thing that fits the criteria. Plus if something or someone bothered to create us, don't you think it would have wanted reveal itself to us, especially when creating us with a natural interest in that territory?

 

And when you think about it, God is the very simplest explanation possible at surface value. You don't have to understand a heck of alot to get the concept.

 

My opinion, anyway.

[Jem]

Originally posted by Keyan Farlander

 

And with that statement, you have just killed your entire argument. You reject a possible proof without knowing anything about it, because you have already decided not to believe it (for no reason whatsoever). You are putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "LA LA LA LA LA." Argument over. You lose.

 

I don't reject that so called "proof" because I have decided not to believe in it but because I don't care about it. And why do I not care about it? because as I said it is based on something I do not believe in. And I do not believe in that thing for no reason whatsoever, I do not believe in it because it's not true. It is useless to try and explain this to yuo, it would be like trying to convice a starving man not to eat the delicious meal that is in front of him...

 

Argument? what kind of a serious argument was I having?? nothing. I am just saying that I don't believe in god and you're the one arguing, I'm just trying to relpy.

For crying out loud I don't believe in god and period, you don't need to get in such a fuss about it. I havn't decided to not believe in god I simply don't believe in god and that's it. How many times do I have to tell you this?

 

I don't believe in god

 

Do I have to put it in my sig?

 

That's all I'm trying to say. You're the one trying to understand everything the hard way, like they say in french: "Tu cherche midi a quatorze heure."

 

I Lose? Since when is this a game? I'm just typing along because you aren't tired of the subject yet, I lost interest during the "chicken or egg" thingy...

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I have much more important things to do:

 

LA LA LA LA LA

[MadPilot]

At this point, I would like to clarify the situation. My argument is that everybody can believe what they want, with whatever reasons they choose. No one is a fool because they can't provide proof for their beliefs.

 

Keyan, from what I can tell, your argument is that because you believe in the existence of God and you feel that your evidence is indisputable, everbody has to believe in God, whether they like it or not.

 

Which, to you, sounds more reasonable?

 

What if someone believes in aliens and you don't. They think that crop circles are indisputable proof of their existence. No one has evidence to deny the existence of aliens. According to your logic, everyone now has to believe in aliens. Otherwise they are foolish. Does that sound reasonable to you? Hell no.

 

When will you learn that your opinion is not the only one? I don't feel that I need evidence to justify my beliefs. But if you still think I do, then you are arrogant. If it's a choice between foolishness and arrogance, I'd rather be a fool.

 

I feel that I have made myself quite clear on this matter and intend to make no further posts regarding the justification for my beliefs. People will believe what they want to believe, no matter what the truth is.

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by Jem

 

I don't reject that so called "proof" because I have decided not to believe in it but because I don't care about it. And why do I not care about it? because as I said it is based on something I do not believe in. And I do not believe in that thing for no reason whatsoever, I do not believe in it because it's not true.

 

Um...do you not see the perfectly circular nature of that reasoning?

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by MadPilot

At this point, I would like to clarify the situation. My argument is that everybody can believe what they want, with whatever reasons they choose. No one is a fool because they can't provide proof for their beliefs.

 

Yes, it does. That's exactly what it means. It is unthinkable for a reasoning being to hold arbitrary and unsupportable things to be certainly true.

 

Keyan, from what I can tell, your argument is that because you believe in the existence of God and you feel that your evidence is indisputable, everbody has to believe in God, whether they like it or not.

 

I don't feel anything, and it is not my evidence. We're not connecting here, because you are clearly not aware of all of the relevant information. You are not seriously considering my posts or giving them any thought whatsoever. You're just reacting. Considering you have failed to respond to any of the specifics I have laid down, I think you are perfectly aware of this.

 

What if someone believes in aliens and you don't. They think that crop circles are indisputable proof of their existence. No one has evidence to deny the existence of aliens. According to your logic, everyone now has to believe in aliens. Otherwise they are foolish. Does that sound reasonable to you? Hell no.

 

No, it does not sound reasonable, and it is not parallel in any way to our discussion. It is not possible to know for a fact that there are no aliens. Therefore, anyone who claims he knows this cannot possibly back up his claim. He believes it without justification, and that IS a foolish thing to do. But crop circles are not evidence FOR alien life, and you know it. I can make crop circles with some wood, some rope and little time. Well, I'm no expert on crop circles, so maybe that's not true. Say I can't. There's still nothing that ties crop circles to alien life. It could be ANYTHING. The proof for the existence of God is much more clear and is certainly indisputable. (Note that when I say "God" I am being quite general, as in the philosophical meaning of the word, and this may be where you are misunderstanding me.) But I now see that you have not read and taken the time to understand these things, you have rejected them without any study at all. That's the silly thing about this discussion - you don't even know the specifics of what I'm talking about and you are arguing with me anyway.

 

When will you learn that your opinion is not the only one? I don't feel that I need evidence to justify my beliefs. But if you still think I do, then you are arrogant.

 

My God, man, how many times do I have to say it? This is not picking out drapes. This is not about opinion. It's about intellectual honestly with yourself. You DO need to justify your beliefs. Not to others, no, but to yourself, absolutely. Otherwise, you are neglecting the very thing that makes you what you are - the ability to reason.

 

I feel that I have made myself quite clear on this matter and intend to make no further posts regarding the justification for my beliefs. People will believe what they want to believe, no matter what the truth is.

 

They will indeed. And that is quite sad.

[MadPilot]

What is it you hope to acheive by questioning people's beliefs? Do you want to convert us? Do you want us to admit we're wrong? Because I can assure you it just isn't going to happen.

 

You keep saying that I have to be intellectually honest with myself about the existence of God and I feel I am. You can't force someone to believe something.

 

Is it just me or are other people avoiding this thread? I think this discussion is getting rather stagnant with so few people still involved. Does anyone else think that belief is about freedom and not justification? Does anyone else think I'm foolish for not believing in God? Does anyone else support Keyan's views?

[Cmdr. Cracken]

I think it's time for us to all agree to disagree.

 

We all have our varying views on life and the etheral. I don't believe in an ethreal, and if there is one, according to your "Bible", Jesus himself said that you don't need to go to church, give confessions, ect. to go to heaven. he said all you have to do is BELIEVE, and live a good life. in fact, Jesus didn't WANT an organaized religion.

 

Second, there's a Gosple, with the words pretty much straight from Jesus's mouth, saying that the you cannot find god in wood, or stone, but IN YOU. oh, yeah, BTW, the Vatican declared that gosple as heresy. intriguing no?

 

Honestly, if there is a heaven, i think that most of us here would get in, because we're GOOD PEOPLE, and that's what matters.

 

IF, and boy, is it a BIG IF.

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by Cmdr. Cracken

I think it's time for us to all agree to disagree.

 

We all have our varying views on life and the etheral. I don't believe in an ethreal, and if there is one, according to your "Bible", Jesus himself said that you don't need to go to church, give confessions, ect. to go to heaven. he said all you have to do is BELIEVE, and live a good life. in fact, Jesus didn't WANT an organaized religion.

 

You see, this is why we cannot agree to disagree. Everything you said is completely wrong, and passing it off as truth is unacceptable. Christ not only said that you need to keep the Sabbath holy, he did so himself. Christ not only said you need to confess your sins, he instituted the Sacrament of Penance personally. Christ not only desired an organized religion, he ordained the first bishops himself and selected the first earthy head of his Church, not to mention celebrated the first Mass himself. This is not something people made up later on - this is legitimate history of Christ and his life.

 

Second, there's a Gosple, with the words pretty much straight from Jesus's mouth, saying that the you cannot find god in wood, or stone, but IN YOU. oh, yeah, BTW, the Vatican declared that gosple as heresy. intriguing no?

 

To declare heresy heretical is not really that interesting.

 

Honestly, if there is a heaven, i think that most of us here would get in, because we're GOOD PEOPLE, and that's what matters.

 

You don't seem to understand the nature of heaven in the religious sense of the word. You not only have to be good to get in, you have to be perfect - sinless. No unclean thing enters God's presense. If it were all a matter of how good of people we are, not only would MOST of us not get in, not a single one of us would get in. No one is deserving of heaven on his own.

 

Reject Christianity or any other religion if you think that is right, but don't try to refute their teachings using their own teachings. Not only does that not make any sense, but you are not sufficiently informed of them to make a good argument of it.

 

MadPilot - My purpose? To convert you? No. My purpose is to have a discussion. If I am truly trying to convince you of anything, it is that philosophical and theological matters are subject to the same rigorous criteria for truth that science or anything else is. Not only is this true, it should be obvious. Does anyone else support my position? It is obvious, and so I would think everyone should.

 

The problem is that I'm trying to get into details, but nobody else is willing to go in to that line of discussion, except for superthrawn. No one is reading, considering, and commenting on what I have written; they are just making emotional reactions to it.

[superthrawn]

Lizard_Queen, I'm praying for you. You've been so horribly misguided about the things of enternity it's not even funny. Sometimes I wonder how the Devil can find people like you, people who know the truth, and feed them lies until they have to believe them. I'll tell it to you straight Queenie:

 

As of now, you wouldn't go to heaven!

 

Something you must realize, and I pray that you do is that God doesn't care about how many good things you've done, or bad things you've done. To him, you must be holy to enter his presence, and that requires being washed by the blood of the Lamb, no more, no less. I tell you right now, that if you don't, you will go to Hell. Simple as that. And once you get there, theres on turning back. This isn't a decision that I'd put off girl, you have to do this now. We've all sinned. We all need grace.

 

Keyan, I'm rather interested as to how the Catholic Church can call the Gospel heretical, and still call itself a church. As well, can you point out to me where Jesus initiated pennance? Other than that, have a great day!

[Redwing]

O_o

 

Above you see a case study in How to Alienate a Person.

 

 

 

 

 

*forces himself to say only one thing to Keyan*

 

Why do you say that Jesus kept the Sabbath holy? (Besides being holy Himself )

 

*already knows what Keyan will say for the other things...totally disagrees, but doesn't want to argue very much...must RPG ^^;;*

[LQ.]

Originally posted by superthrawn

Lizard_Queen, I'm praying for you. You've been so horribly misguided about the things of enternity it's not even funny. Sometimes I wonder how the Devil can find people like you, people who know the truth, and feed them lies until they have to believe them. I'll tell it to you straight Queenie:

 

As of now, you wouldn't go to heaven!

 

Something you must realize, and I pray that you do is that God doesn't care about how many good things you've done, or bad things you've done. To him, you must be holy to enter his presence, and that requires being washed by the blood of the Lamb, no more, no less. I tell you right now, that if you don't, you will go to Hell. Simple as that. And once you get there, theres on turning back. This isn't a decision that I'd put off girl, you have to do this now. We've all sinned. We all need grace.

 

Keyan, I'm rather interested as to how the Catholic Church can call the Gospel heretical, and still call itself a church. As well, can you point out to me where Jesus initiated pennance? Other than that, have a great day!

If hypocritical, judmental people like YOU are gonna be in heaven then count me out!! Being stuck in eternity with people like you and Keyan would be MY version of hell.

[Commander 598]

Being forced to argue over something for awll eternity?

[Jem]

Heaven would be Hell....

 

 

Keyan:

Um...do you not see the perfectly circular nature of that reasoning?

 

I'm just trying to make it super simple for you...but it still doesn't work.

 

For the moment I have only been taking a defensive attitude by only replying, I don't need to speak out because:

a) it would be a waste of time

b) MadPilot is doing it for me. I totally think the same thing he does on what concerns you Keyan...

 

but hey, we're just arguing right

[Rogue15]

i'd read it all but i don't have time, like my rank?

[Commander 598]

Who are you?

[Rogue15]

I am your father.