I Pledge Allegiance.

[Redwing]

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by Redwing

Why do you say that Jesus kept the Sabbath holy? (Besides being holy Himself )

 

Well, because he did. He practiced the Jewish religion quite ... perfectly, really. The Temple itself was an essential part of his earthly life.

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by Jem

Heaven would be Hell....

 

 

 

 

I'm just trying to make it super simple for you...but it still doesn't work.

 

For the moment I have only been taking a defensive attitude by only replying, I don't need to speak out because:

a) it would be a waste of time

b) MadPilot is doing it for me. I totally think the same thing he does on what concerns you Keyan...

 

but hey, we're just arguing right

 

Whatever you say

[Jem]

Originally posted by Keyan Farlander

Whatever you say

 

Okay then

 

Keyan have you ever seen that argument sketch Monty Python once did? If no check it out here:

 

http://www.montypython.net/cgi-bin/dl2/full.cgi?arguskit.wav

 

I'm the guy who works at the clinic (the one who contradicts) and you're the client.

 

If the link doesn't work just go here:

 

http://www.montypython.net/scripts/argument.php

 

and click on the links on the bottom of the page: "The Complete 'Argument' sketch"

 

If there's a lesson and moral to be learnt in this thread it's that discussing religion with Keyan is as popintless as discussing politics with Nute

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by superthrawn

Lizard_Queen, I'm praying for you. You've been so horribly misguided about the things of enternity it's not even funny. Sometimes I wonder how the Devil can find people like you, people who know the truth, and feed them lies until they have to believe them. I'll tell it to you straight Queenie:

 

As of now, you wouldn't go to heaven!

 

Something you must realize, and I pray that you do is that God doesn't care about how many good things you've done, or bad things you've done. To him, you must be holy to enter his presence, and that requires being washed by the blood of the Lamb, no more, no less. I tell you right now, that if you don't, you will go to Hell. Simple as that. And once you get there, theres on turning back. This isn't a decision that I'd put off girl, you have to do this now. We've all sinned. We all need grace.

 

That's hardly the kind of Christian charity we should all be observing. And you do NOT know what would happen to her upon her death. That is not possible for us to know. Remember that God does not condemn people for what they do not understand.

 

Lizard_Queen - people like me!? What have I done, except correct your misunderstandings about the Catholic Church and assure you that not understading the gravely sinful nature of an action means that it cannot be a mortal sin? I have not judged you or treated you unfairly in any way. Quite the contrary, I would say!

 

Keyan, I'm rather interested as to how the Catholic Church can call the Gospel heretical, and still call itself a church. As well, can you point out to me where Jesus initiated pennance? Other than that, have a great day!

 

Not the Gospel itself, but a wrong interpretation of it, certainly. If it was a whole "gospel" he was talking about, I am certain it was not one in the New Testament canon.

 

As for the Sacrament of Penance, the Church has understood from its beginning that Christ instituted that Sacrament, and they have practiced it. Thank God it has changed forms through the years and it is no longer done publicly! For a Scriptural reference of Christ giving the apostles the specific authority to forgive sins, see John 20:21-23.

 

"Peace be with you," he said again. "As the Father has sent me, so I send you." Then he breathed on them and said: "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men's sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound."

 

As for that last part, that is important too; a priest has the right to refuse you absolution if he has serious reason to believe you are not sincerely repentant or have no intention of amending your life (although this is rare, and you can, of course, appeal that decision, so to speak).

 

Other important things regarding that Sacrament. First of all, Baptism forgives all personal sin; in other words, you do not confess the sins you commited before you were baptized. In the case of infants, this is not meaningful, since they have no personal sin, but there are many who are converts and are not baptized as infants.

 

Secondly, all mortal sins must be confessed in kind and number (to the best of your ability). Confessing venial sins is not required, but is very helpful, since in confessing them, you receive advice from the priest on how to avoid repeating those sins, and you also receive special graces to help you avoid sin in the future.

 

Let's see, what else...? Well, a priest cannot reveal anything you have said to him in Confession to anyone without your permission, even if you are not granted absolution. He cannot even bring them up with YOU again, unless you give him permission to do so. Violating that trust would be a very serious offense for a priest, and there would be serious consequences. He may never be allowed to function as a priest again, in fact. I have never heard of a priest breaking the Seal, however.

 

Also, only a priest or bishop may hear confessions - deacons may not, although they have been ordained and are members of the clergy.

 

Other than that, I suppose it is important to always remember that it is Christ, our High Priest, who is in the confessional with you, who really forgives your sins. He simply does it through the priest.

 

All of this is brought to mind in every confession when the priest says, "God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen." That last bit, starting with, "and I absolve you..." are the words necessary for absolution, said in Latin or in your native language (usually).

 

Anyway, now you are all experts on that Sacrament. I hope you were paying attention, since there will be a quiz.

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by Jem

 

Okay then

 

Keyan have you ever seen that argument sketch Monty Python once did? If no check it out here: ...

 

That was one of the least funny things I have ever heard. I admit, I don't see what's funny about Monty Python stuff. I know most of you guys are nuts about it, but I just don't get it. I don't really get any English humor ... er, humour.

 

If there's a lesson and moral to be learnt in this thread it's that discussing religion with Keyan is as popintless as discussing politics with Nute

 

No, it's much different. I present cogent, valid arguments, and Nute (though he does that sometimes, too ) usually just tries to make you feel extreme fear in the event he ever gets real political power. And let's face it - it works. If Nute ever gets into office, I'm heading for the hills. He'd be just like that guy in the movie The Dead Zone. You know, the one with Christopher Walken? But me? You'd all feel pretty confident with me as the pope, right? Well, maybe not, but I can at least sweep up the floor at church, right? Right? Guys...?

[Jem]

*Nods head and taps on Keyan's head*

 

Yes you can Keyan, yes you can...

[Redwing]

Originally posted by Keyan Farlander

 

Well, because he did. He practiced the Jewish religion quite ... perfectly, really. The Temple itself was an essential part of his earthly life.

 

...?

 

What happened to him violating the no working on Sabbath rule, and tossing out the religious traditions of the day? Augh...never mind, I'm only frustrating myself

 

*agrees with Jem and runs away*

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by Redwing

 

...?

 

What happened to him violating the no working on Sabbath rule, and tossing out the religious traditions of the day? Augh...never mind, I'm only frustrating myself

 

He did not "toss out the religious traditions of the day," he corrected the religious officials where they got off the right track. The "working" on the Sabbath is a perfect example, since they did not understand what the law was really saying in that case; they were in fact, breaking the spirit of the law, which they should have understood very well, in their positions. He practiced the Jewish faith very devoutly, but he did need to issue some corrections once in a while. Not in opposition of Judiasm, but in support of it. His earthly parents, too were devout Jews and raised him strictly in that faith. But even when he was a child, he had things to teach to the religious officials. (I'm sure most of us are familiar with that story; it is quite well-known.)

[Redwing]

I knew you'd say that...and I can't reply cuz I already ran away...wait...what am I doing here then? *vanishes*

 

*is far too hyper to be posting*

[Borg Collective]

 

*restrains Redwing and applies sedative*

 

As late as we are, we feel compelled to post, but will only point out that our input would be irrelevent. All sides in this debate are engaged in a circular argument, and no concensus can be reached.

 

This is an accurate reflection of your human natures; you are divided, discordant, and you persist in desperately trying to resolve intangibles when, by simple logic, they remain impenetrable. This focus on irrelevencies serves only to distract you from the more important problems you could be facing. Thus, none of your problems are resolved.

 

In short, you dwell too much on the significance of words written on paper/calfskin/metal and recited by rote, and not enough on the significance of those words.

 

It is, in many ways, a fascinating example of the failure of a language to encompass itself.

 

The words repeated in your oaths are irrelevent. your prayers are, except to yourself, irrelevent. Your varied concepts of the afterlife are irrelevent. The only thing that is relevent is your life.

 

Your corporeal, human lives are finite. Beyond this, nothing can be known with certainty. As much as it pains us to admit, this short lifespan makes each of you, as individuals, far more significant than the Collective. Each one of you represents a variable that can not be reproduced or repeated. Each of you is capable of altering the course of history. Each of you is, ultimately, an individual.

 

You live in a world defined by common concensus. Whether this world is truly "real" is irrelevent, so long as you share it. What you believe, what you think, does not matter nearly as much as what you do, in that common reality.

 

Whether your motives are defined as an attempt to please some higher power, or merely to ensure the most efficient use of resources to gain the maximum benefit for the maximum number, the results should bear no functional difference.

 

Yet we know that this will be ignored. You are small and divisive, and each individual has a desire to impose its will on your "collective." You will doubtless continue this debate, possibly until it has destroyed you, and then you will continue, unchanged. Irrelevent.

[superthrawn]

First off, I don't appreciate being called hypocritical. If I am, could someone please point out to me where I was? Keyan, I can't agree with your statement that people who don't know won't die. That's like saying you didn't know there was a car coming down the street, but crossing in front of it will still get you killed. And besides, like I've said before, the Bible says itself that everyone can see the beauty of God, it is their own fault for believing. Yes, I do believe that God is loving. But the Bible says that He is "loving," while saying that He is "holy, holy, holy." Our sins do condemn us, myself included. I will only be able to go to heaven by the Grace of God, that he would send his Son to die for my sins still boggles my mind.

 

By: Borg Collective

 

In short, you dwell too much on the significance of words written on paper/calfskin/metal and recited by rote, and not enough on the significance of those words.

 

I'm reading Catch-22 right now... are you sure you didn't take lessons from Joeseph Heller, BC?

 

Keyan, I would like to say that I would feel confident with you as the Pope. Though our views differ, sometimes rather extremely, and I will never agree with you, you have a good handle on both the Biblical and spiritual meanings of many, if not all of the Catholic Religion. (Wow... that was just one, big, long, run-on, never-ending... you get my point.)

 

Borg Collective... are you sure you didn't copy that rhetoric from somewhere? It seemed to clear, and clean cut... maybe you spent a lot of time on it? (Is still continually confused by Trekkies.)

[MadPilot]

Again, freedom is not the issue. No one questions your freedom to do and think as you wish. But the whole point is that just because you are free to think something, that doesn't make it true.

 

Then why do you keep saying that there has to be a God? Your whole argument is based on the secure knowlegde that everyting you know is absolutely correct..... but what if it isn't? Why should one's inner convictions about the existence of god indicate that such a being exists outside of the believer's own mind?

 

formal dogmatic atheism has never won the assent of any significant number of men.

 

Are you quite sure about that? A glance at the 1998 World Almanac reveals that over 1.1 billion people (19 percent of the world's population) are either atheists or non-believers. Trends recorded at that time also suggest that the number of atheists is increasing.

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by superthrawn

Keyan, I can't agree with your statement that people who don't know won't die. That's like saying you didn't know there was a car coming down the street, but crossing in front of it will still get you killed. And besides, like I've said before, the Bible says itself that everyone can see the beauty of God, it is their own fault for believing. Yes, I do believe that God is loving. But the Bible says that He is "loving," while saying that He is "holy, holy, holy." Our sins do condemn us, myself included. I will only be able to go to heaven by the Grace of God, that he would send his Son to die for my sins still boggles my mind.

 

Indeed, everyone can know God in some form or another, through his creations, and they must make the best use of this knowledge that they can. However, people may do this and still have no explicit knowledge of Christianity, through no fault of their own. These people, for example, are not automatically doomed for their lack of knowledge, since there was literally no way they could have known the specifics. That doesn't mean it's the best way to do it, and that doesn't mean it's easy. Quite the contrary - one reason evangelization is so essential. Note that this does not mean in any way that everyone who does not know about Christian ideas gets a free ticket to heaven.

 

Keyan, I would like to say that I would feel confident with you as the Pope. Though our views differ, sometimes rather extremely, and I will never agree with you, you have a good handle on both the Biblical and spiritual meanings of many, if not all of the Catholic Religion. (Wow... that was just one, big, long, run-on, never-ending... you get my point.)

 

Sigh...if only that were so. Every time I think I have a good handle on it, I learn about some new, vital piece of the picture. Well, at least it's never boring.

 

Borg Collective... are you sure you didn't copy that rhetoric from somewhere? It seemed to clear, and clean cut... maybe you spent a lot of time on it? (Is still continually confused by Trekkies.)

 

You're going to figure out pretty soon that old Borgy here isn't interested in having a real conversation. He just likes pretending he is the Borg

[Taarkin]

Originally posted by superthrawn

That's like saying you didn't know there was a car coming down the street, but crossing in front of it will still get you killed.

I would liketo think that God is a tad more sentient and compassionate than a horseless carrige.

And besides, like I've said before, the Bible says itself that everyone can see the beauty of God, it is their own fault for believing.

Ok, look at this:

You can see the beauty of the painting, but do you know who painted it? Monet? Rembrandt? Zeus? Allah? Odin? Vishnu?

 

-Edit: dang, 2 posts while I was writing this one

[LQ.]

To Keyan and Superthrawn I appologize. I got over emotional and snapped at you. I wanted to keep this debate mature and I messed up.

 

I am going to express my beleifs then sign out. This topic get me too fired up.

 

1. I beleive in god, a good loving god who forgives and helps those who need it

2. I beleive in heaven, but also reincarnation.

3. I beleive in hell...but not the fire and brimstone one. just one that is cold, dark and away from love and light

4. I beleive very few are there for a long time because god always gives us a chance to come back to him

5. I do not like people who can quote the bible to justify everything they say

6. I CAN NOT STAND people who say they will pray for my soul and that i am going to hell

7. I try to live a good life and not hurt people, the Golden Rule was one of the best things to come out of the Bible

8. I will NEVER beleive in a God who uses fear and condemnation to make people behave

 

If you or anyone has a problem with this then I am sorry. I beleive this and NOTHING, anyone says will make me change my mind. It took a lot to get me to this and I won't give it up. Thank you for taking the time to read this. I wish you both a good life.

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by Taarkin

Ok, look at this:

You can see the beauty of the painting, but do you know who painted it? Monet? Rembrandt? Zeus? Allah? Odin? Vishnu?

 

Quite true, but you do know that somebody painted it

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by Lizard_Queen

To Keyan and Superthrawn I appologize. I got over emotional and snapped at you. I wanted to keep this debate mature and I messed up.

 

I am going to express my beleifs then sign out. This topic get me too fired up.

 

1. I beleive in god, a good loving god who forgives and helps those who need it

2. I beleive in heaven, but also reincarnation.

3. I beleive in hell...but not the fire and brimstone one. just one that is cold, dark and away from love and light

4. I beleive very few are there for a long time because god always gives us a chance to come back to him

5. I do not like people who can quote the bible to justify everything they say

6. I CAN NOT STAND people who say they will pray for my soul and that i am going to hell

7. I try to live a good life and not hurt people, the Golden Rule was one of the best things to come out of the Bible

8. I will NEVER beleive in a God who uses fear and condemnation to make people behave

 

If you or anyone has a problem with this then I am sorry. I beleive this and NOTHING, anyone says will make me change my mind. It took a lot to get me to this and I won't give it up. Thank you for taking the time to read this. I wish you both a good life.

 

If you really do wish me a good life, perhaps you could offer a prayer or two for my soul? I could use all the help I can get

[superthrawn]

I'm with Keyan, Lizard_Queen. Will you pray for me too?

 

Mad Pilot, your argument falls apart even as you make it. You atheists who believe for no reason are like the main character in Catch-22. His name is Yossarian, and he believes that everyone is out to kill him, and him alone. Why? Because his plane gets shot at when he is on a mission (during WW2) and he has nothing that proves otherwise.

 

Einstein said the deeper he delves into the universe, the more proof he had of a Supreme Being. That the smartest man in modern history would say that; it's proof enough for me. Not to mention the fact that no one can deny the existence of Christ, his life is still the basis of our dating system worldwide. The Bible I believe in, because despite the fact that it was written by several different people, at different times, it still fits. Stuff that was at the beginning is fulfilled at the end. Phrases, ideas, and concepts are concurrent throughout, without contradicting itself.

 

Finally, there's the fact of life itself. It's inconcievable to think that life could have just come from a random explosion, and formed itself into what it is today. First off, the Universe is WAY too large for that kind of a random thing. Secondly, that still begs the question of where conciousness came from. I am here, and I know I am here. As Asimov wrote: "I think, therefore I am." Scientists calculate the odds of intelligent life forming at levels far too small for human comprehension, 1 out of something to like the 200th power.

 

Keyan, I find the verse that you listed about the forgiveness of sins to be completely irrelevant to what you're talking about.

 

Finally, I hear people saying that the Golden Rule was the best thing to ever come from the Bible, but in my experience, I don't ever remember reading the Golden Rule. Perhaps you are thinking of the time when Jesus says: "That which you have done unto the least of these, so have you done to me"?

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by superthrawn

Keyan, I find the verse that you listed about the forgiveness of sins to be completely irrelevant to what you're talking about.

 

Um ... how? It's about as clear as you could ask for it to be.

(Notice in paricular the special significance of Christ breathing on them. Look for another instance of this.)

 

Finally, I hear people saying that the Golden Rule was the best thing to ever come from the Bible, but in my experience, I don't ever remember reading the Golden Rule. Perhaps you are thinking of the time when Jesus says: "That which you have done unto the least of these, so have you done to me"?

 

No, I think they are talking about "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." I've never seen anyone point it out, though.

[Jem]

You two remind me of him:

 

 

[Commander 598]

Zoomie!!

[Jem]

Nonononono... It's the Duracell Bunny, it keeps going and going and going and going and...

[superthrawn]

Hmm... Keyan, I can't even remember where the verse that I was talking about and disagreeing w/ was posted. Anyway, I think I remember the gist of what it said, and that I interpereted it to mean that the disciples could forgive those who had sinned against them, or other men, but not against God. Perhaps just the way I'm reading it.

 

There's talk to the effect that 1.1 Billion people are Atheistic. That's a worldly stat. People are so confused as to the difference (as proved by this very thread) between atheism (a religious choice, hence a religion) and agonosticism (a lack of conviction in ANY direction, therefore, not a religion). And Keyan is right. You also fail to draw the distinction between formal dogmatic Atheism (again, a religion) and not believing for no reason (not a religion). Formal dogmatic atheism has never won the assent of any significant number of learned men. Plain and simple.

 

Keyan, my pastor spoke on the topic of good works/faith today, and I found it very interesting. The term "Faithworks" came up, and I like it a lot. Through our whole argument we've been assuming that it's Faith vs. Works. What if it's a middle ground? Secondly, the way that he explained it, is that God has planned many good works for us, and if we have faith in him, true faith, then we cannot help but do them, instead of your argument of needing them to justify ourselves. I'm rambling here, though if you like I can use a particularly good illustration towards this, but only if someone asks.

 

There has been some anger at me for saying that Non-Christians will not go to heaven, hence going to hell. Particularly from Lizard_Queen, and though I know that she's given up on us, I'd like to state my position on this. I don't sugar-coat things. You can ask the people who know me best (actually, you can't, because you don't know them) but I'm very honest and forthcoming when it comes to this kind of thing. I won't lie about myself, even if it makes me sound conceited, and I won't lie about others. Occasionally I'll come across as someone who is stuck up, but my friends could tell you that this is simply because I don't hesitate to state facts about myself, not out of arrogance, but because it is the truth.

[MadPilot]

There's talk to the effect that 1.1 Billion people are Atheistic. That's a worldly stat. People are so confused as to the difference (as proved by this very thread) between atheism (a religious choice, hence a religion) and agonosticism (a lack of conviction in ANY direction, therefore, not a religion). And Keyan is right. You also fail to draw the distinction between formal dogmatic Atheism (again, a religion) and not believing for no reason (not a religion). Formal dogmatic atheism has never won the assent of any significant number of learned men. Plain and simple.

 

Again I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. It's already been clearly stated that atheism is not a religion. Why do you feel the need to label it as such? Even if it were a religion, what makes you so confident that your religion is right? They can't all be. People of other religions can justify their beliefs, as can atheists and other non-believers.

 

How can you be 100% certain that your beliefs are right and that everyone else is wrong? This is why I say again, people can believe whatever they want with the justification they choose.

 

Borrowing Keyan's argument, unless you know everything about the universe, how can you prove there is a God? How can you prove which religions/beliefs are correct? If you cannot prove beyond doubt that you are correct, then you can't say my beliefs are wrong. Is that so hard to understand?