ahhhhhhhhhh (two cheers for whiners)

[QuietSith]

Anyone who thinks that backstab/sweep/assfighting should learned to be countered and not simply fixed, probably drives his car backwards on the highway, and thinks it's okay when people find 'god mode' cheats in games.

 

It simply looks stupid, ruins gameplay and fun, and should be fixed.

 

Denying this is beyond irrational.

 

The solutions are plenty - but what we truly need is an official patch.

 

It's nearly as bad as if someone learned how to instantly respawn with the BFG in Quake 3 - but other people said, hey use it yourself or learn to counter it.

 

Not only does it ruin gameplay, it's just stupid to watch and boring.

 

If you consider assfighting a play style, than we have nothing to talk about. That's like playing a racing game and finding out that reverse gear when you pump the pedal 3 times, gives you 200 + miles an hour.

 

Should it be fixed... absolutely.

 

The game needs the source code patch period (mod 1.04) - that will solve 99% of most problems (mainly being assfighting).

 

It's rather abusive for an admin to say someone's ideas or opinions are stupid - you should make a seperate account to do that. Argue with the idea not the person - you basically told this guy he's stupid. If you know what you post will be rude, why post it? Especially an admin. That's just wrong.

 

But than again, it does explain why a few of the flame posters get their way, huh.

 

P.S. My server is running the 1.04 mod (nothing changed but simply what Raven did).

[technobot]

well, Quietsith... we've all heard your opinion a million times and frankly I don't agree with you. and it's just a wee bit hypocritical of you to flame someone else for "calling people stupid" when you do that yourself quite frequently, especially if they disagree with you on this issue. If the only argument you can level is, "You don't agree with me, you're obviously stupid", well buddy, you've lost the argument. I don't have the time to cull through your posts, but when you first joined this board, you were nice, polite, gave your opinion and didn't seem to mind that other people MIGHT disagree with you. Then you gained confidence, gathered some disciples, and now you're a prick half the time, at about this time I stopped reading most of your posts. Anyway, back to your opinion... that doesn't make you wrong, it certainly doesn't make me wrong it's just the point that in a democracy every idiot is entitled to their opinion, no matter how idiotic it may be.

 

wouldn't that extend to a server admin as well? I actually respect him more for using his real handle instead of hiding behind an alias, which you suggested, but that's just my opinion which is counter to yours. point is, we're allowed to say what we want, why can't he? and I respect the guys who aren't afraid to show they disagree with him, unlike the guys who make a point to agree with everything he says JUST BECAUSE HE IS AN ADMIN. it just so happens, that on this VERY hilarious issue I agree with him.

 

and Homosexual Ewok confirmed this, I would have to agree with it as well: running around backwards, yes does look foolish. believe it or not, a lot of "backsweepers" will only turn around at the last second before delivering the killing sweep. And while we aren't denying your right to an opinion, saying, "It simply looks stupid, ruins gameplay and fun, and should be fixed. Denying this is beyond irrational. " simply shows that you're not ready to accept that the fact that yes, other people have differing opinions for you OMG, someone disagrees with QuietSith, maker of some CTF mod I'll never play.

 

I don't think assfighting ruins the game, at least not for good players. It looks stupid, but big deal, jumping up and down, spamming a blue or yellow combo (the one that always does the top down forward hack) looks even more ridiculous. and maybe the designers put backsweep and made it extremely powerful for a reason: IT SPEEDS UP GAMEPLAY. While I won't deny the fact that many people would enjoy a nice 30 minute saber duel, you would have to agree that just as many people want to kill people quickly, so the board can be finished quickly, so they get their Jedi fix quickly, and can go back to spending time with the significant others quickly. But that's just my opinion, and now you can tell me how wrong and retarded I am, because you are always right.

[Solo4114]

I've been kind of silent for a while on this board, and haven't posted lately, so naturally, I was surprised to see the same old rants popping up after my month-long hiatus.

 

This thread seems to have migrated from being purely about how annoying whiners are (and they can be annoying), to how some whines are legit (IE: the backstab/sweep debate), to how games should have more than one tactic/learn to deal with a spammed tactic/etc.

 

So, in keeping with the most recent bent of this thread, the spammed tactic discussion, I offer the following.

 

Kurgan makes an interesting point in that there are, roughly speaking, two styles of play in this game: the FPSers and the RPGers. Now, I don't fully agree with this, but the point about people having differing styles of play is important. I think, personally, that I'd tend to fall more into the RPG camp, but not entirely. When I bought this game, I was looking for a Star Wars FPS game. The single player experience gave that to me, and the multiplayer, as of 1.02, did not. When Raven patched the game, for a while at least, the 1.03 version added much of what I'd wanted. Basically, I wanted saber fights to be like they were in single player, because the environment felt more immersive and fun. Fights were more flashy, you could actually block, and therefore it was less of the jousting match that 1.02 was. Unfortunately, there were some problems. Blocking was SO increased that it began to take up to 5 min to kill someone if you were both playing it safe.

 

Now, me, I don't mind this. I view a 5 min fight as an intense duel, and one that I would likely enjoy. But a lot of folks felt that this was taking too long, and so they began to search for moves that were, effectively, one hit/one kill moves, like the old DFA was. For the record, the modified DFA move IS a one hit-kill move, you just have to time it absolutely perfectly (to the point of it being basically useless) to kill with it. Anyway, as people searched around they found the backstab. This, of course, led to the ass fighters, but those folks are easily dealt with. The real problem comes in the form of the pull/backstabbers, and the fact that the backsweep lets you rotate around to score kills all over the place.

 

So, what's this got to do with the issue of whining, you say? Well, here's where I differ from Kurgan. He made the point that it comes down to the FPSers and the RPGers in this game. I disagree to an extent. I think it comes down to two styles of play, as he said, but not necessarily the FPS/RPG distinction. Really, I think the distinction comes down to "Win at any cost" vs. "Have fun while trying to win".

 

On the one hand, we have the people who figure if any move is in the game, be it one that's clearly an exploit (IE: floating down from a cliff with the light stance lunge) or one that was always meant to be used (IE: the yellow finisher), it's legit. This is the WAAC (see above) group. They'll use the "legit" move they've found, rack of the kills, and keep playing. If they find one particular move that lets them kill easily over and over, they use it, almost exclusively. Try doing a search (if the search function is active again...) for a few threads surrounding a guy named ArtifeX's grand announcement of leaving the game.

 

For those who don't know, ArtifeX (I think that was his name, anyway), ran this website called the anti-saberists code or something. It was basically a backlash against a group of folks who wanted to create a set of self-imposed "rules" about how to play. Not so much rules, maybe, as much as just a code of conduct that adherents would use to play. Anyway, ArtifeX took the attitude of "If it's in the game, it's legit, and f**k you for telling me how to play MY game." He did a fair amount of research on how much damage certain moves caused, and posted this info, as well as various tactics, on his website. Needless to say, his favorite move (from what we saw, anyway) was none other than the backstab. And he used it exclusively to win. And win he did. According to him, he lost very very few matches using his technique of pull/backstab the other guy first.

 

So, why'd he leave the game? He got bored. So he says, anyway (there was some speculation that he was pissed about being beaten, but I think he probably did get bored). Basically, he felt that the game was not much fun anymore, because all he ever did was spam the backstab move (since the game "forced" him to do this in order to win), and this naturally got old after a while. Plenty of folks laughed at this response, and chided him for being the architect of his own demise. But that's how he wanted to play: he was hell-bent on winning, and used any legitimate tactic he could to win. When it became clear that the best "legit" tactic was the backstab/pull combo, he used that exclusively, until he bored himself out of the game. Remember this point. I'll come back to it later.

 

Now then, the other side of the debate is, in my mind, the people who feel that, just because it's in the game, you don't HAVE to use it exclusively. Winning isn't everything, nor is it the only thing. The most important aspect is having fun. Towards this end, variety is what helps make the game fun. Even in old games like Doom, where you couldn't duck, roll, jump, or even aim at a different level directly, you still had the variety of weapons. Doing nothing but the backstab pull combo would be, at least to my way of thinking, like playing Doom with nothing but the BFG all the time. And, as one can imagine, that'd get pretty damn boring after a while.

 

When folks complain about the backstab/sweep issue, I think it's a legitimate gripe. Not necessarily because the move is "cheap" or "lame", but because it's unbalanced and detracts from the fun of playing the game. And not just for those who have to try to avoid it: for those who use it as well. The key problem with the backstab is that, while it has a huge benefit to it, there is no corresponding detrimental effect of using it (at least, as of 1.03, before the SDK, and before people figured out the ghoul2collision, etc. stuff). The move was not unbeatable (I can beat it by turning on absorb -- no more pull that way -- and flipkicking whoever is spinning to attack me). It's difficult to beat, though, when the entire server is populated by people who do nothing BUT that move.

 

I can handle a one-on-one fight against a backstabber, usually, just like I can handle a one on one fight against a guy who mostly uses the yellow finisher. However, it's not much FUN to have to play against people who use nothign but one move over and over again. And I imagine that the people who use nothing but one move over and over must get bored themselves. Look at ArtifeX. He got so bored that he left the game. Personally, I think that one-hit kill moves are a bad idea, unless they're really hard to pull off (IE: the DFA) or they leave you open to counter attack for a while, or have some other detrimental effect (Maybe they consume health or force to use, I dunno). Or, you should make EVERY hit a one-hit kill, such that the various "finishing" moves are just different options to use to kill a guy in one hit, not simply the only way to do it.

 

Anyway, the point of this whole Russian novel of a post is that complaining about certain moves CAN be legitimate, when those moves make the game less fun for ALL involved. Moves like the backstab/sweep, prior to the SDK patch and people's discovery of ghoul2collision and the sabertrace variable, were real problems. They unbalanced the game, and made it so that one particular tactic was THE king tactic to use. And if you weren't using that tactic yourself, you were going to lose. Period. End of discussion. That's not how a game should play. Now, I'm not trying to impose my style of playing on other people, but I'd imagine that even the people who have the "win at all costs" attitude will grow tired of winning with nothing but one particular move. It would be almost like finding god mode in a game. Sure you can win the game, but after a while, you get bored with just running around killing things and not having any kind of challenge set before you. That's the end result of uber-moves, uber-weapons, or anything else that becomes a dominant tactic in any MP game. MP games should be about balance. Sure, some weapons are more powerful than others. The rocket launcher will deal out MASSIVE amounts of damage if you hit with it. BUT, its missiles can be pushed back at you, and can be avoided if you move fast enough. On the other hand, the bryar pistol can be a very VERY weak weapon, but when used effectively, it can be deadly. Balance, folks. Balance. The same should go for sabre combat. Heavy stance is slow and doesn't block well, but deals out large amounts of damage. Light stance is fast and blocks well, but deals out weak damage. Medium stance is a balance of the two, but excels at neither defense nor attack. Balance. Any moves that correspond to these various stances should be similarly balanced, and complaining about the spamming of a tactic is legit, provided it's directed at the right audience.

 

Complaining to the guy who just killed you, well, that solves nothing. And in this, many of the posters here are right. If you don't liek the way someone plays, find a server that plays your style of playing. And rest easy in the notion that eventually the spammers will grow tired of the game and move on. But, complaining to a developer about a problem in the game that unbalances the game and will ultimately lead to people getting bored with and giving up on the game, that's a legitimate gripe.

 

Here endeth the post.

[Skuttle24]

*whine* i whish people would stop whining */whine*

[Homosexual Ewok]

The funny thing is, these people who are complaining about v1.03 are the people who brought about the patch in the first place.

DFA IS GAY FIX IT!

DRAIN IS GAY FIX IT!

STUPID RED STANCE FIX IT!

GRIP IS GAY FIX IT!

You got your patch, don't like it do you?

 

Seriously, how damn weak does this game have to be made before you people will be happy?

 

OMFG! HE KILLED ME WITH 5 KICKS! YES 5 KICKS!

 

You guys have your Special Olympics mods, you have your servers, stfu, go play on them and leave the rest of us alone you damn PTA letter writing-soccer mom-mentality babies.

[Gandel]

Well said Homo Ewok

[Kurgan]

First off, pardon the Force Long Posts, and I hope nobody feels bad having an admin argue with them. Don't worry, it's all good here, I just feel like expressing my opinions. =)

 

Anyone who thinks that backstab/sweep/assfighting should learned to be countered and not simply fixed, probably drives his car backwards on the highway, and thinks it's okay when people find 'god mode' cheats in games.

 

It simply looks stupid, ruins gameplay and fun, and should be fixed.

 

Denying this is beyond irrational.

 

I disagree. Several people have pointed out (in this and other threads) how they don't have a problem with these players (ie: they don't lose to them). So for these folks, they have found a way to "beat" the "assfighters." So they already have a solution... change your tactics. That doesn't require a patch. It doesn't ruin their gameplay for them, or their fun.

 

Have you ever played against somebody who was playing their first game? They weren't much of a challenge were they? How did you make that situation fun? Just a rhetorical question... but I'd suggest other tactics they could use. But I'd leave them to form their own playing style.

 

The solutions are plenty - but what we truly need is an official patch.

 

I'd say it's never enough. There will always be some tactics that some people don't like and they will always wish for a patch. I think it makes more sense to simply adapt to the changes and if a new patch comes out, adapt to that as well. You can give up playing the game until a new official patch comes out, but you may have a long wait...

 

These aren't game-stopping bugs we're talking about. It's a move or tactic that annoys some people, that can be countered, but some people just don't WANT to deal with it, so they'd rather have it removed.

 

It's nearly as bad as if someone learned how to instantly respawn with the BFG in Quake 3 - but other people said, hey use it yourself or learn to counter it.

 

No, it's not. Everyone (unless you set it to saber attack = 0) starts with a saber, so everyone can use the backstab. All it requires is pressing back+attack (as it says in the manual) with any stance, when somebody is behind you! Spawning with the BFG is something that nobody does normally. This is more equivalent to rocket jumping. Somebody learns how to rocket jump, and instead of others learning how to deal with it maybe even learning how to do it themselves, they say remove rocket jumping from the game.

 

Not only does it ruin gameplay, it's just stupid to watch and boring.

 

If you consider assfighting a play style, than we have nothing to talk about. That's like playing a racing game and finding out that reverse gear when you pump the pedal 3 times, gives you 200 + miles an hour.

 

"assfighting" meaning running around with your back turned trying to do the backstab. Well, a lot of people complain about being able to run backwards, but guess what? That's part of FPS games. Rocket jumping looks absolutely silly, and is totally unrealistic, yet it's part of most FPS games (not JK2 however)!

 

The story goes that Carmack removed RJing from the code during the Q3 test, but he got such a huge backlash from testers that he had to put it back in to save face!

 

In most FPS games the characters run much faster than any human could ever go, and never get tired. The only FPS game I've played where you get tired is Outlaws. R6 and other "special ops" based games have you run slow, but most FPS games have you running about 40-80 MPH! Even the fastest human would be hard pressed to run 20 MPH, much less all the time in combat.

 

What about all those weapons, how do you carry them all? Where do you store them? How come those weapons never need to be serviced? How are you able to take so many direct hits, unshielded, and not go unconscious or bleed, etc. etc?

 

Many tactics look "stupid" or "unrealistic" but that doesn't matter. Again, it's part of the FPS genre at large, and most of those things have not affected the enjoyment of them for players in the least. For some reason, people are trying to hold a Star Wars game to higher standards of realism and "movie-ness" (everything has to be dramatic and in slo-mo) than other FPS games. If you take a look at most FPS games, you'll see realism enhancing "touches" added (like headshots, or reloading) but most of the core game is always inherently unrealistic, to facilitate gameplay.

 

As far as tactics, it's like Chess. The Queen is super powerful! She is stronger than any other piece! It's not very cool that the Queen can move out in only a couple of moves and start wreaking havoc, yet its part of the game, the majority of players have accepted it, and have been forced to develop tactics to counter-act it. It's the same way here.

 

What do you do in a duel if the other player just hits the jump key constantly? They're harder to hit, right? Why is that illegal? I'd say it's perfectly legal. Maybe silly and boring, but it's how they choose to play.

 

"Fixing" these things is just another way of saying "I can't beat it, so make it so it can't be done." First off, it's not a foolproof strategy, as many have pointed out (they say it's easy to beat these people), so why is it a problem? There's a million other ways people can annoy you and make the battle silly.

 

Should it be fixed... absolutely.

 

The game needs the source code patch period (mod 1.04) - that will solve 99% of most problems (mainly being assfighting).

 

I've read posts where people have pointed out that even the so-called 1.04 changes don't fix everything. My feeling is that they'd still complain even after that...

 

 

It's rather abusive for an admin to say someone's ideas or opinions are stupid - you should make a seperate account to do that. Argue with the idea not the person - you basically told this guy he's stupid. If you know what you post will be rude, why post it? Especially an admin. That's just wrong.

 

Well, frankly, I'm just doing what many others have done. Notice I'm not calling YOU (or anyone else whom I've disagreed with) stupid, I wouldn't do that. Perhaps it wasn't the nicest way of saying it, but I admitted that. I disagree strongly (even if it is just a game opinion). Maybe saying that I feel their arguments are "fatally flawed" is more charitable?

 

P.S. My server is running the 1.04 mod (nothing changed but simply what Raven did).

 

That's a start. Like I said, play what you want, if that's closer to what you like, then use it.

 

The way I see it, the arguments against the Backstab (and the so-called "assfighting" it can lead to) are doing so for aesthetic reasons. I remember when the JK2 vids came out everyone was talking about how AWESOME the backstab looked. Since the game came out, people have done nothing but complain. I guess Raven misjudged those fans, huh?

[Kurgan]

Oh, and one other thing I forgot (heh), is the idea of Raven putting new changes in and admitting they forgot to fix this and that.

 

As it is now, people have pointed out that they can still win without using it and can defeat people who use it exclusively. So even if the game is not what Raven wanted in the final analysis, it's still not "broken."

 

Sort of like if Carmack had taken out Rocket Jumping. Then the game would have been how he wanted. But either way, the game was perfectly playable. It's just that people WANTED it more one way, and that way was more popular.

 

Now we might think that because so many people complain about the backstab (reminds me of all the complaining about the Force Powers and stuff in JK1, most of which got ported to JK2 all the same!) that it must be something that's universally hated and so should be changed.

 

But let's think about this... so many people complaining must indicate that the move has very widespread usage. Perhaps its the majority of JK2 players that are using the backstab, moreso than those complaining about it and demanding it be removed?

 

The thing is, what are you going to do besides remove it entirely? Make it so that the move can only be used once per minute? You can't introduce a good weapon or power and then expect people not to use it, or only use it once in a blue moon for the sake of coolness. Like anything, it's not unbeatable or perfect.

[XERXES]

quiet sith, that first thing about drivin your car backwards is just plain ignorant. I was complaning about the whiners..lol. But one thing i think that raven should adress is when you finish backstabing and pull the saber back around, it is still doing ALL the damage and can still kill you. They should fix that...you know what im talkin about right?

[QuietSith]

Well, maybe you should cull through my posts.

 

Though you may disagree with what I have to say - I do not harass or flame people for an opinion, unless they outright flaming others - and I never call them stupid.

 

Sheesh - let's just make things up about other people, anyone will believe it and it gives fuel to the fire. Yah right.

[QuietSith]

And before you start going off on me and thinking I'm the cause of 1.03 .. think again...

 

I am NewBJedi and I created this thread:

 

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49099

 

Notice my response to:

 

"I can't beat people who are in heavy stance. "

 

I was fully against the 1.03 patch in the first place.

 

And yes, I did become bitter - 1.03 was released and Raven and LA did not listen to my most important advice:

 

Don't change the gameplay!

 

Now we have this backstab/sweep move that is many times worse than Heavy stance DFA could have possibly been.

 

As for one thread about people who disliked DFA (good news for them) - that's all it was.

 

I don't have a problem with someone who has opposing viewpoints getting the benefit. That's what life is all about.

 

P.S. The 1.04 patch/mod does not 'remove the move' it merely makes it more like a normal non-one-hit-kill move - based on a person with 100 health.

 

A person 100 health (with the mod/patch) would be killed by a backstab/sweep/etc if the backstabber did it 3 times instead of once. Let's get the facts straight here.

 

You are very welcome to test this out on my server.

 

I think you'll find nothing is really 'nerfed' just re-balanced.

 

Give it a shot - it can't hurt.

 

The whole reason I use the 1.04 mod/patch and the the following settings:

 

seta g_saberghoul2collision 0

seta g_sabertracesaberfirst 0

seta g_forceregentime 100

 

Is because it feels much more 1.02 that way (balanced).

 

Heavy DFA and Yellow Finisher are basically the only one hit kills, and as they were in 1.02 - very very avoidable.

[YuNa Inverse]

I have no problem with losing a legit fight. I just respawn and jump back in. But when EVERY SINGLE FIGHT consists of pull, turn, backstab.. it kinda sucks the fun out. Usually I play dark side, but lately I've had to use the ligh sight simply for absorb so that stupid, cheap trick doesn't work. Just played a game a few minutes ago, the same people came in first and second because that's ALL they did.

[QuietSith]

Originally posted by Kurgan

I've read posts where people have pointed out that even the so-called 1.04 changes don't fix everything. My feeling is that they'd still complain even after that...

 

Of course, but it would help a bunch of us who think that's the only major serious problem.

 

If they just makes the changes in the 1.04 mod/patch. I would never have a criticism again - I'm quite happy about it.

 

I got so sick of all the B.S. I'm renting my own server and running it the way I think it should be - the server is often full so someone else must be agreeing.

 

My goal for the server - 1.02 'balance' feel. I think I've come very close.

 

Check this out:

 

http://www.codesilver.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23

 

Maybe saying that I feel their arguments are "fatally flawed" is more charitable?

 

I think so. People do look up to you as an authority figure - it's going to be that way whether you like it or not. It's important to choose words carefully. A lot of young kids can get hurt - developing ego's and personality. I hate to say it, but it's important to be somewhat P.C., if you are leader, which you are.

 

Just my opinion of course - I'm not trying to tell you what to do, and I don't mean to make it sound that way. If I'm not assertive about an opinion, there's almost no point in giving one.

 

That's a start. Like I said, play what you want, if that's closer to what you like, then use it.

 

The way I see it, the arguments against the Backstab (and the so-called "assfighting" it can lead to) are doing so for aesthetic reasons. I remember when the JK2 vids came out everyone was talking about how AWESOME the backstab looked. Since the game came out, people have done nothing but complain. I guess Raven misjudged those fans, huh? [/b]

 

I wouldn't blame Raven - it's pretty clear (to me) they want to fix the game, even host forums on their own site - check out their forum for General Chit Chat - they want to, LA won't let them.

 

LucasArts just needs to get with it and give those guys permission to keep working on it.

 

Quake 3's been through how many (beta) patches?

 

Tribes 2 wouldn't be needing this Garage Game full patch if Dynamix was still around - Sierra axed Dynamix.

 

A lot of it has to do with the decisions by the top people and they should be more responsible.

 

What needs to be done, and I've said this way too many times - public beta testing of patches:

 

That will fix so many issues - it gains community involvements, they are beta so it's voluntary, and it allows a wider range of people to participate and test it out.

 

It's worked great for Quake 3 and is doing great for Tribes 2 - public beta testing.

[QuietSith]

Originally posted by Altephor

I have no problem with losing a legit fight. I just respawn and jump back in. But when EVERY SINGLE FIGHT consists of pull, turn, backstab.. it kinda sucks the fun out. Usually I play dark side, but lately I've had to use the ligh sight simply for absorb so that stupid, cheap trick doesn't work. Just played a game a few minutes ago, the same people came in first and second because that's ALL they did.

 

Can you try out my server?

 

I want to see if you get the same problem or not.

 

I am not trying to get more people to play on my server.

 

I AM trying to expose more people to possibilities of fixes.

 

Keep in mind my server is not using anything which isn't available directly from Raven.

 

Slight changes to the way the server runs, but otherwise just a simple mod that is only using Raven compiled source code - no intervention by any user made stuff - everything on the server is Raven code.

 

Server name:

 

Rage and Honor - AC - (1.04) - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rageandhonor/

 

IP:

 

65.113.116.20:28072

 

My server is set with:

 

Minimal blocking (available cvars in the game)

1.04 unofficial patch mod (purely Raven code)

Forceregen set to half as long - (available cvar in the game)

 

Let me know if there is any differerence or if there is none at all.

 

Thank you.

 

P.S. If you can't get on, please go ahead and redial (I suggest ASE). The server is super busy lately and I believe it's due to those settings.

[YuNa Inverse]

Next time I wanna play some JO I'll check it out..

 

But if you have 1.04, or whatever it is.. that would pretty much lock me from most other games..

 

Is there a way to toggle what version you're using? So I could use 1.04 on your server but go back if I wanted to say, play with a RL friend?

[QuietSith]

The good thing about this is the following:

 

If you play on my server, and use allow download, it'll grab the pk3.

 

You can join any other server around - it will not put you in a 1.04 mode all the time - only if the other server is using it.

 

Now if you want to host a server, and not use that, simply remove it from base - u104mod.pk3

 

So basically you can join any normal server or other modded server and the existence of the "u104mod.pk3" file in your base directory will not have any effect on your going on those other servers.

 

I hope that helps.

[jd91651]

. . . of course whining about people who whine is more noble than just normal whining . . . 'cause we're so much better than they are . . .

[Kurgan]

Maybe I've been going about this argument all wrong.... see, I see the lightsaber as "just another weapon" but I realize that on a DUEL SERVER, since 9 out of 10 duel servers are "sabers only" its your ONLY WEAPON. IIR, most Duel Servers are low or NF as well...

 

So that really limits your options. And then people get upset about certain moves because it makes a stance unbalanced or something. I see the stances as just sets of moves. I don't use one exclusively. I switch to the one I want in order to do the move I want, that's best for the situation.

 

But I guess when you limit yourself to NF DUELING (or Saber challenges on a FFA low force server), then maybe you get protective and just a bit picky about what tactics you want to allow.

 

Everybody's got their preferences, I just feel like certain people want to shoe-horn everybody into their group, by limiting what you can do or you get called a lamer or a cheater and when you win, using tactics you feel are legit, they say you're using exploits and all that stuff.

 

I feel like it's easy for me to just practice and learn new tactics and work to adapt. Other folks feel that it's better to wait for a patch or to form groups and plead their case on the forums for others to follow their rules.

 

Frankly the whole "bowing" thing I thought was silly, not because I had something against role playing, but that you got CALLED NAMES if you didn't do it! Some people acted like it was all you could do. By the same token, if you used the DFA, you were a bad person and same with the backstab or whatever. In JK (and MotS), I guess we had an advantage, because there WERE NO GAMEPLAY CHANGING PATCHES so everybody just had to learn how to play the game and put up with its nuances, or just make a mod (and you had people that did that too).

 

Despite the "smaller" community (it felt smaller) of JK/MotS, you still had people whining constantly about how Grip was cheap and Protection was cheap and etc etc. People got accused of cheating and trash talked each other. It's easy to forget and think it was a utopia, but it wasn't. Still, most of us were able to simply brush it off and have fun anyway.

 

As myself and others have said before, for many of us:

COMPETITION = FUN

 

It's not that we're trying to "win at all costs" and not have any fun, but trying to win IS THE FUN. It's not like the RPG players are the only ones having a good time. If it's not fun, don't play... otherwise it's a waste of time. Perhaps there are people who play the game and don't enjoy it, I think they should stop.

; )

 

For the record, I enjoy playing CTF and team games probably most of all, I also enjoy FFA deathmatch and Dueling. Though I love saber duels, I recognize that they aren't the only style of gameplay and that it takes different skills to be good at that verses fighting with all the weapons and powers verses a bunch of people. I haven't played much CTY, Holocron, or Jedi Master, and haven't ever tried Jedi vs. Merc (I have doubts about the balance, let's say... and the fact that so many people will just be Jedi).

 

I didn't want to turn this into a flame war, if I've offended anyone, I apologize (again). I just want to make the case that my way of playing is just as legit as the next guy's, even if I don't subscribe to extra rules. If Raven makes a new official patch, that's their perrogative, and I'll welcome their decision. It's what I did with the 1.03 patch.. I learned to master the new stuff, and moved on. I guess what makes me the maddest is the slight elitest vibe I get when people talk about how they have more honor and are better because they saber duel and don't use the backstab or DFA or whatever the flavor of the month honorable rule is. Nobody put up with that back in the JK1 days...

[Homosexual Ewok]

The way I look at it is, if you can find a hole in my defensive strategy and exploit it, no matter if you do so with swift precision or sloppy random hits, it is up to me to patch that flaw in my play style.

 

I simply hold my opponents up to this standard as well.

But by no means do I attempt to humiliate them. If a player is willing to learn, I have never refused help.

For those of you that are frustrated with the pull/backstabs, before you flame someone for using it, try asking them to show you a few pointers on how to prevent it. You would be surprised on how much you can learn by simply (politely) asking someone for help.

[Solo4114]

Kurgan,

 

I see your point re: competition being your source of fun, and more power to you. I also think that you're a bit different from a lot of the "competitive" players out there, in that you view a move as just one tool to be used. I doubt that you exclusively use ANY move, weapon, or stance.

 

However, leaving the backstab as the death-dealing blow it is now (given that it can take a person who just spawned from 100/25 to instant death) without adding some sort of major detracting factor (IE: the ability to block the move, being frozen in place for a few seconds, long recovery time, etc.) AND allowing people to spin around as they do in pure 1.03 IS a problem. It unbalances the game.

 

For me, at least, that's the crucial flaw of the move. I wouldn't mind if it was incredibly powerful. I wouldn't even mind if it was an instakill move, as long as it had a corresponding achilles heel to it. The DFA in its current iteration is basically perfect. I think they could make it a little easier to execute or maybe a bit faster, but overall, the benefits and drawbacks are well balanced. Yes, you can kill someone basically instantly. But, you'd better be DAMN sure you hit the guy.

 

The backstab in pure 1.03 has no similar drawbacks. It's essentially an instakill move, BUT, you can spin while doing it and kill multiple enemies at once, AND it's unblockable (remember -- in PURE 1.03. No cvars messed with). Granted, turning out ghoul2 and messing with sabertrace helps increase blocking, but that's only really for when you're standing. If you get pulled to the ground, and the guy instantly backstabs, you're still toast.

 

The way I see it, if you want to leave the move so that it can rotate, is unblockable, and can be done off a pull combo, you should nerf the damage. Yeah, I said it. Nerf. Nerf nerf nerf.

 

If you want to leave the damage as it is, remove the spinning ability, allow it to be PARRIED (not blocked -- difference = you have to be swinging to parry it), and make all stances use the blue backstab. This would prevent the pull/stab combo (the blue stab goes right over your head), would leave the move as quite deadly, but would not make it unbeatable.

 

As for the 1.03 patch, I think they got a lot of stuff right. Most of the changes that they made I agree with. DFA, the increased blocking, the ammo consumption changes, and the chaining changes (reducing the chainability of yellow stance), I think all of these things definitely added to the game. By NOT fixing the backstab issue, however, Raven left a gaping hole in what would otherwise be a solid, tight game. Actually, I'd have reduced the blocking somewhat, to be honest. Ultimately, I just wanted MP to be like SP, which I thought was perfect in terms of saber fighting. The rest of the changes, I couldn't care less about. The guns vs. sabers issue, well, I could've gone for a gun user being slowed down slightly when running backwards, but that's really a minor concern. I'd have loved it if they really made a truly balanced mercs v. jedi mod (the current version, a beta, is really very much a beta), but again, a minor concern.

 

Overall, I was happy with the 1.03 patch. It wasn't until the rise of the assfighters that I got sick of it. But, when the anti-assfighting servers showed up, the game became fun again. Add in the ghoul2/sabertrace stuff, and it's basically just like SP -- what I always wanted.

 

Would another patch likely fix more stuff? Sure. There's always stuff that could be tweaked or enhanced. But overall, with the exception of the backstab, I'm happy with 1.03. I don't even really mind the increased blocking all that much. I wouldn't mind if it was toned down, but overall, I'm neutral on it, long as some blocking does exist in a more effective form than 1.02.

[Kurgan]

Good comments. A couple of things though:

 

I see your point re: competition being your source of fun, and more power to you. I also think that you're a bit different from a lot of the "competitive" players out there, in that you view a move as just one tool to be used. I doubt that you exclusively use ANY move, weapon, or stance.

 

This is true, I mix it up, mainly because it makes it harder for my enemies to lock onto a patern they can exploit. However, let me just say that there have been situations where I join a game and I am WAY BEHIND AT THE START. I try my best to get up with the leader, even if I can't win. It's fun when they have like 50 kills and you TIE THEM when the level ends! lol

 

Anyhow, the way I play, it often happens that I'll fall into a pattern just the same (that's how the human mind works, we like patterns, they're easier and more comfortable). I'll run a pattern through the level picking up the same items as they respawn. I'll target and kill the same guys who like to camp in certain areas. I'll use the same stuff, to, you guessed it EXPLOIT MY ENEMIES'S WEAKNESSES!

 

If I KNOW a guy lacks absorb, I'll pound him with grip and lightning, for example. If I know he lacks seeing, I'll use Mind Trick. If he likes to use the saber, I'll use the explosives and the DEMP2. I do whatever it takes and if they can't adapt fast enough, THEY DIE.

 

I admit, it may get boring if the person falls for the same weapon/move over and over, but if I'm trying to make up that point deficiet, I will.

 

See, when I compete, I am NOT going for movie-like duels or dramatic kills. Sure, to wow newbies or if I'm recording a demo, I might want to try for that sort of thing, making each kill unique, but in general it doesn't matter, it's just whatever works.

 

For example lets say you're trying to win, do you duel somebody for 5 minutes? Or do you run around shooting people? Chances are in that super long movie-quality duel, you could have gotten a half a dozen frags or more. Oops! That's why if you do a lightsaber challenge, it's only out of boredom (fighting, say the only other good player on the server or your friend) or if you aren't going to win anyway and you just want a quick fight. Otherwise a duel server is a much better test of your lightsabering skills. In a regular FFA or CTF, the saber is used as just another weapon and takes second fiddle to other more powerful weapons.

 

I may use the lightsaber while on defense in CTF, but that's again in certain situations. You don't chase a flag runner with your blade for example. NF CTF Sabers only? I don't think so!

 

However, leaving the backstab as the death-dealing blow it is now (given that it can take a person who just spawned from 100/25 to instant death) without adding some sort of major detracting factor (IE: the ability to block the move, being frozen in place for a few seconds, long recovery time, etc.) AND allowing people to spin around as they do in pure 1.03 IS a problem. It unbalances the game.

 

ONLY, if you are playing NF, sabers only Duel, or possibly in lightsaber challenges. In FFA FF CTF or Deathmatch or anything else where you use everything, it's PERFECTLY FINE.

 

In CTF, you NEED to be able to do fast kills. You can't wait around fighting people, because in that time, attackers pass you buy and take your flag! Or somebody snipes you from a distance while you're dueling. See, you can't have all this movie-quality, long-drawn out stuff in CTF. So you either have to have different sets of saber styles for dueling and everything else, or you leave it how it is now (or how it was in 1.02).

 

In FFA Deathmatch as well, you have OTHER WEAPONS so the backstab is balanced. Also, as long as its not NF, you have force powers to counter it with.

 

I think the problem is that these lightsaber challenge, NF Sabers Only people are limiting themselves and so this one move is making it harder for them to have their movie-quality RPG duels, and that's creating problems! People DO play all those other game modes. I am arguing that nerfing and removing all of the one hit kill moves available to saber users only benefits a small percentage of the game, while crippling the rest.

 

Eventually, it will become so bad that in non Duel/Lightsaber challenge gameplay, the saber will simply be useless and one that nobody ever users (KIND OF, like it was in JK1. Note: I'm not saying the saber was useless in JK1, but for most players, it was only a last resort weapon... only master players were able to use it effectively instead of the conc, mines, rail det and other powerful guns).

 

So why cripple the rest of the game just for the saber duelists? I know many people want to just play duels, but the rest of us get mad when we see the saber becoming less and less useful in open combat, and more and more just a dueling weapon.

 

For me, at least, that's the crucial flaw of the move. I wouldn't mind if it was incredibly powerful. I wouldn't even mind if it was an instakill move, as long as it had a corresponding achilles heel to it. The DFA in its current iteration is basically perfect. I think they could make it a little easier to execute or maybe a bit faster, but overall, the benefits and drawbacks are well balanced. Yes, you can kill someone basically instantly. But, you'd better be DAMN sure you hit the guy.

 

So how about make a mod that simply nerfs the backstab or removes it in duel mode, in fact, removes ALL one hit kill moves in duel mode, but preserves the original styles of 1.03/1.02 in CTF, FFA and everything else?

 

The way I see it, if you want to leave the move so that it can rotate, is unblockable, and can be done off a pull combo, you should nerf the damage. Yeah, I said it. Nerf. Nerf nerf nerf.

 

Actually, I would love to see the full damage, "king cheapo" versions of all the saber moves returned for DM and CTF. That would be better than what we have now. As it is, the saber is just made so that saber duels take forever, but it hurts its effectiveness against other weapons... people say the blocking is silly, but it's only silly against OTHER SABERS as I've seen. I can still shoot down saber wielders quite easily in all out combat with 1.03. That should not change.

 

If you want to leave the damage as it is, remove the spinning ability, allow it to be PARRIED (not blocked -- difference = you have to be swinging to parry it), and make all stances use the blue backstab. This would prevent the pull/stab combo (the blue stab goes right over your head), would leave the move as quite deadly, but would not make it unbeatable.

 

Again, people need to realize that the saber's use as a dueling weapon is NOT its only function, and in fact the minority game mode. Duel and lightsaber challenge are the EXCEPTIONS, the "rule" is CTF/CTY, DM and Holocron DM and Jedi Master. Sabers verses guns/explosives and sabers, not just sabers verses sabers with no force!

 

As for the 1.03 patch, I think they got a lot of stuff right.

 

They did! But the stuff they changed with the sabers was really only of benefit to duelists. And again, they didn't "go far enough" because people are still complaining. They won't be satisfied until all moves are nerfed and nothing kills in one hit. The RPG players want duels to last a long time like the movies, but again, if you carry this over to open combat, it makes it silly and the saber a weapon you don't want to use if you want a shot at winning for yourself or your team.

 

Running backwards as fast as forwards is also something that should NOT be changed. Again, it might be "fun" in duels, but in the rest of the game modes, you NEED this! Think about this in the context of CTF for example. Again, most players like me use everything, not just the saber exclusively, so we combine tactics. It's not always just saber verses saber with NF.

 

Overall, I was happy with the 1.03 patch.

 

I'm fine with it. It has some stuff I love and some stuff I don't, but I have adapted to play with it. But some of the suggestions people are making are turning this into a duel-centered game. I can't just duel all the time, I want to enjoy the vast and varied FUN game that Raven made, and play all of the game modes, not just one.

 

It wasn't until the rise of the assfighters that I got sick of it. But, when the anti-assfighting servers showed up, the game became fun again. Add in the ghoul2/sabertrace stuff, and it's basically just like SP -- what I always wanted.

 

So I'm assuming you're one of those guys who focuses on dueling as the sole aspect of the game that deserves your attention? We should remember that JK2 is an FPS with a melee combat system tacked on. It's not a melee only combat game, like Rune or Bushido Blade or Blade of Darkness or Die By The Sword or something.

 

Would another patch likely fix more stuff? Sure. There's always stuff that could be tweaked or enhanced. But overall, with the exception of the backstab, I'm happy with 1.03. I don't even really mind the increased blocking all that much. I wouldn't mind if it was toned down, but overall, I'm neutral on it, long as some blocking does exist in a more effective form than 1.02.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing an OPTIONAL "dueling saber style" chooser in the admin settings, but as far as I'm concerned, the saber usage with regard to all out combat in CTF or DM was perfectly fine in 1.02. That's my honest opinion. I'm not saying the new stuff is wrong, but people act like its BROKEN and NEEDS TO BE FIXED. If they would see the POV of a person who isn't obsessed with dueling NF only, they might see my POV, I think.