Martial Arts Between Episode 1 and 4

[Duelist]

Don't you think Darth Vader and Luke fought a little too awkwardly in episode 4? They are so slow paced unlike the fighting even in episode one where Darth Maul fought so brilliantly against Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan!

The fights in episodes 4, 5 and 6 really bore me. Through this, I'm thinking that Lucas might remake and show them in the movies again. I might be wrong, but who knows?

 

Post your comments and opinions!

 

Episode 1 ->

Episode 4 ->

[Hanch Saode]

Yup...I have thought the same thing! But....guess it's just because the 4, 5 and 6 are from 20 years ago...so....that tells alot....

 

But I find it a little ......"don't-fit-in" like......but imagine yourself Darth Vader with that costume.....jumping around.....

 

Can't make it fit inside my head....Ep3 better convince me!

[GE Predator]

lol, ahhhhh............... lol

 

1) Luke didn't fight Vader in Episode 4. Obi Wan did, and yeah, it was a boring as **** duel.

 

Episode 5 had the best duel in all the movies IMO. They took their fight all over the damn place

 

the carbon chamber

that area with the window

the catwalk

 

2) There's NO WAY Lucas, no matter HOW good his tech is, can remake those battles. It's just impossible and besides, would be completly and utterly retarded.

[Solo4114]

Lucas has kind of explained why this is. In the prequels, what you're seeing is the Jedi at the height of their training, when they had a centralized academy to instruct students in all manner of the force, including lightsaber combat.

 

Apparently, in Ep. 3, we'll see Anakin fall into some lava pit or something like that, or at least be severly beat up, to the point where his body is basically shattered. Hence, the need for what is essentially a prosthetic body (the vader armor). Lucas may change this, but ultimately, he becomes "more machine than man", which results in rather a loss of mobility.

 

Also, keep in mind that it's possible that Vader really never tried that hard, plus the fact that he'd been out of practice for some twenty years. No point using a lightsabre if there's no jedi to kill, right? Especially when you can block blaster shots with your hand and grip people to death.

 

Now then, as for Ben, he was also woefully out of practice from his previous form, since he'd been living as a hermit, trying NOT to draw attention to himself as a jedi. You'll note that, but for the duel with Vader and the one moment in the cantina, Ben NEVER draws his saber, not even to instruct Luke.

 

Luke, on the other hand, was completely untrained. Sure he had Yoda and Ben to train him, but honestly, how long do you think they really worked with him? Grand total, maybe 9 months, and that's being generous. Now, if any of can pick up and master an omnidirectional, massless, bladed weapon in 9 months, my hat's off to you. I think Luke did a stand-up job (even though he got knocked down), considering. I tried picking up kendo for a summer and it's tough stuff. And that's just with a blade that points in one direction, much less something that can decapitate you from ANY angle.

 

Anyway, here's a bit more info on the fighting.

 

Actually, if you look at the technique used by Ben and Vader in the Death Star duel, they're really doing what real kendo masters do. They battle for control of the center and control of the fight. That's why they do that thing where they sort of swirl their lightsabres around each other, like they're trying to stir coffee or something (watch the fight, you'll see what I mean). Only once does Ben do that spin move. The rest of the time, they both try to remain perfectly balanced and centered. They don't overextend themselves, they conserve their energy for moments where they really need it, and they stay focused on the fight. That fight is ALL about substance, and not at ALL about style.

 

Unfortunately, as we've all seen, real fighting don't equal stage fighting. It isn't as flashy, it isn't as impressive (unless you actually know the fighting form), and it isn't as interesting overall. It's much cooler to watch young Obi-Wan twirl his lightsaber like a cheerleader before attacking, spin around, jump, kick, flip, duck, do back handsprings, hop on one leg, and make the biggest, flashiest swings he can. Part of this we can even incorporate in to the story of the film: Obi-Wan as a young man is reckless in his style. He gradually becomes more centered and controlled as he gets older. Qui-Gon's style is more centered and controled, but even he does some flashy bits sometimes. Still, he's at the top of his game in that movie, whereas old Ben was on his way out (literally, unfortunately for him).

 

Anakin's style (from what I remember -- only seen AOTC once so far) is even a bit more reckless than Obi-Wan's, but is far more lethal and directed towards attacking, rather than protecting (as distinct from defense -- protecting being the act of defending a third party, defense being where you defend yourself).

 

I could go further into an analysis of the various characters' styles, but you get the point. At this point, it's less about what would truly be useful in a fight (when you were growing up, how many of you wondered why the hell Vader didn't just stab Luke and Ben in the back when they did that spin move) and more about what looks cool.

 

But, while the first lightsabre duel of the sexology (Hey! Quit giggling! It's a real word.) may be boring, it was about as close to what you'd really do as we've seen.

[RpTheHotrod]

Pretty much...I think the above poster is right. Obi and Vader was more worried about their life than impressing the ladies...which there was none, so that would even be harder.

 

 

 

Spinning, freaking, jumping, rolloing, would get you killed REEEEAL fast. Also...they wanted E1 E2 to be more impressive, than realistic.

 

I promise you, if I had to duel ANYONE in E1 (havnt seen E2 yet), I'd win sure bet. I wouldn't "play along" like their enemies did. I'd just step back, and hit him during one of the MANY times they let down their guard.

[Venik]

I agree.....Ben and Vader were just old and slow....also we all know the best fighters wait for the right moment..which reminds me of a story were 2 of the best Samuri from oppsing clans faced off in the winter...neither would make the first move..so they froze to death..and were burried where they died...that spring...a willow tree grew on each grave and leand to the other as if the trees were bowing to each other..neat story I learned in sword class..not sure if it was real..but it makes senes...there is no unessarsary(cant spell) movements in sword play..unless you want to die..thats why I love this new patch...makes it more real...no more people running around like crazy people

[RpTheHotrod]

I don't like this patch because of one simple thing...sabers do nearly no damage...unless you spam special moves.

[Owen Yu]

Only SW geeks try to find crazy reasons for the differences in fighting. The only reason is that they were gayer back then than they are now when it came to any kind of fighting.

[Kurgan]

It really all has to do with audience expectations. With movies like "The Matrix", "Blade" and "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" in the public (at least Hollywood) mainstream being held up as master-pieces of action, Star Wars audiences expect to see stuff like that when they go into the theatre.

 

At the time of the original trilogy (1977-1983) audiences had expectations of what action films should be like, with regard to sword fighting and martial arts and all that, so most likely if you compared those sequences to action films of the period, you'd find equally striking similarities.

 

In another twenty years if sword fights and martial arts in films are still en vogue, you'd likely see new Star Wars films (if they were hypothetically made) immitating those films as well.

 

It has really nothing to do with skill in martial arts or budget. The fights that include the participants doing huge flips and that sort of thing really aren't anymore realistic. However, you do notice the "quality" of the action has changed in TPM compared to ANH. Watch the number of close-ups in each film in a single saber battle. Obviously, audiences are expecting to SEE more of the action and conflict, so the camera angles are changed to show you more, not just the actor's faces as they struggle with each other (compare again, actions sequences of contemporary films of ANH and TPM).

 

I remember Lucas's (or was it McCallum's?) quote about the prequel trilogy showing us Jedi in their prime, instead of "cripples" and "old men" and untrained kids fighting. But I think it's somewhat silly, now that we've seen apprentices (Anakin, Obi-Wan and Maul in TPM) and Old Men (Dooku, Yoda, Qui Gon, maybe even Mace Windu) fighting. We just haven't seen any "cripples." So it's just the same thing again, just with changing styles due to contemporary audience's expectations of action film sequences (expecting lots of flips, wirework, and integrated cgi effects, instead of close-ups, pyrotechnics, etc).

 

One thing I did enjoy about AOTC though, was the (delightfully cheesy) mid-battle dialouge. TPM just felt somewhat lacking without it, though some argued at the time that it was better with the participants only grunting and yelling "nooooo!"

; )

 

My spin on the "reality" of the new patches is this... in a dueling server, the saber battles should last a long time if the combatants are of equally high skill, other than that, I could care less if I can kill or be killed with one well placed hit, in fact that's DESIRABLE if it's CTF or FFA. I don't want to have to spend five minutes killing each person with just my saber. If that's the case, more often than not I'll just use a different weapon, since speed of kills is what counts, not "cinema" unless you're just trying to record a cool demo to impress your clan-mates.

[Marvelous*]

It really all has to do with audience expectations. With movies like "The Matrix", "Blade" and "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" in the public (at least Hollywood) mainstream being held up as master-pieces of action, Star Wars audiences expect to see stuff like that when they go into the theatre.

Definately, The audience expects so much more now,

And nearly anything short of an absolute masterpiece would be

(and has been) a complete disappointment.

 

Take the fight between maul/obi/qui gon, if you'd have shown that 20 years

ago, it wold have either blown the minds of the audience,

or gone full circle and been a complete failure

(kinda like michael j fox's guitar scene in back to the future)

 

Lucas will have a hard time doing ep3, as everything has to come together

beautifully, and you will need to be walking away from the film

a happy and satisfyed person from it.

 

A tough job, i wouldnt want to be in his shoes anyway.

[RpTheHotrod]

Originally posted by RpTheHotrod

 

 

...Also...they wanted E1 E2 to be more impressive, than realistic...

 

 

exactly

 

 

 

First, during the movies time period...that's how fights where.

 

Second, if you want roleplay, Vader and Obi were older, and were more worried about fighting, than impresing people

 

Third, they wanted E1 E2 to be more impressive, than realistic

[Solo4114]

Thanks for sharing, Owen. I find a few things interesting:

 

1.) You posted your comment on a Star Wars video game board. Clearly, you must be a fan as well, to a greater or lesser degree. Otherwise you'd be playing CS or something.

 

2.) You posted these comments on a Star Wars VIDEO GAME board. Clearly, you must be a fan of video games. A fairly geeky pasttime, all things considered (not like you're out playing rugby, ya know?). Not only that, but you've got what appears to be a video game or anime icon. So again, pots and kettles, my friend.

 

3.) You POSTED these comments on a Star Wars video game board. Clearly, you must be a fan of the internet. Also a fairly geeky pasttime all things considered.

 

Now, personally, I don't mind being called a geek. Hell, I take that particular classification and accept it. Yeah, I'm a geek, and a happy one at that. I enjoy the abovementioned three things, as well as other geeky pasttimes. And if you're calling someone a geek in a friendly joking manner, no problem. But if you're using it in a perjorative way (as you seem to do with the word "gay") then, like I said, pots and kettles, pal.

 

Finally, I'd like to point out two other things.

 

(we've used the 1, 2, 3 thing above -- figured we'd try something new and different)

 

A.) Your debating skills are bar none the finest I have seen to grace these boards. "They sucked because they suck." Circular logic strikes again! Well done.

 

B.) I also especially applaud the use of the term "gayer." Not only is the use of that word offensive.....it's not even a word! Well done, indeed.

 

[Psionic Jedi]

Better fight choreographers* I think. . .

 

I also noticed that the Classic Trilogy is FULL of Saber Locks... maybe cause the sabers hardly hit flesh in jedi v jedi duels with

the exception of a limb being lopped off or a Jedi vanishing under his cloak (bind x "quit").

[Duelist]

Hmm... great thinking there. Thanks for all your comments and opinions, they really enlightened me!

 

Old fighters...

[Bluezman]

Well, I appreciate the effort Solo114 put into the analysis and into the explanations. I still think that the difference is mainly due to:

 

- The Original trilogy being Low-Budget movies (at least Ep. IV)

- no developed special FX industry back then

- better fight choreographers today

- further development of movie-making as a whole today

- higher audience expectations

- ...

 

There's a dozen plain simple reasons to that. Not saying that Solo is wrong, sure it can be explained with that and of course that is the way Lucas explains it when being asked.

 

But, c'mon, do you really think Lucas thought back in '77 "ok let's not make these saber duels too flashy and acrobatic because in 20 years time I'm gonna make the prequels and then the fighting scenes really need to kick ass in comparison to Ep. IV"

 

The same goes for lots of other things. E.g. in Ep I and II at times the techology actually looks way more advanced although it's chronologically BEFORE Ep. IV...

[Solo4114]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the guy planned the whole thing. I give him credit for having a vision, but it doesn't go THAT far.

 

BUT, I do think that after the first movie, he decided that he wanted things a bit flashier. Look at the difference between ANH and ESB & ROTJ. Even from the first movie to the second two, you see a large jump in flashiness.

 

The analysis of audience expectation is dead-on. Without the flashy sabre fights of the new films, there's no way people would've enjoyed the movies as much (which is really a shame, when you think about it). Honestly, could anyone have found any redeeming qualities for TPM had it not been for the quality of the sabre usage? Lucas forgot his own advice for that one, "A good special effect without a good story is a really boring thing."

 

That's why I really enjoyed AOTC, even the slow parts: they took the time to develop the story, and didn't feel the need to have constant relentless action.

[Bluezman]

Agreed. He does have a vision, although I think it is rather foggy, like just a rough storyline. The real thing only comes out during the making of the film. Lots of designers are involved who make suggestions about how the aliens look like etc. etc. Lucas even changes stuff like for example the role of Jar Jar Binks. Jar Jar was supposed to play a major role in Ep. II but since the audience didn't like him, well, he changed it.

 

I often compare StarWars to the Tolkien Universe (Lord of the Rings). Now THAT guy had a vision alright! The difference is: For both there are Movies and books, BUT: the real Tolkien is BOOKS. The real Lucas is MOVIES.

 

Tolkien has EVERYTHING "hard-coded" in the books, hardly room for interpretation. When you make a film, you have to decide what to leave out because the book is just way too much to put everything into a movie. His vision is so much in-depth you wouldn't believe it. There is just so much backround literature, like he's got it down to even the different languages, he invented the languages with own grammar, spelling, pronounciation etc. etc.

 

Lucas has the stuff sort of in his head. Then he makes the movies, leaving open dozens of questions. Other people try writing books about it and have to ADD stuff in order to explain certain things that in the movies are just there, wheras the reader of a book expects more detailed descriptions. Then you get this whole "canon - not canon" discussion. And when the fans - after discussing weeks and months and years about stuff like "why does Obi Wan have a birthmark on his ass in Ep I but not in Ep IV? Did he have cosmetic surgery?!"- ask Lucas these highly sophisticated questions he goes like "ummmm - yeah. it's because... ummm you know he burned it away with his saber...I guess?..."

 

Ah well, I still love StarWars...

[Sith Maximus]

This post has brought up all of the points in the game that you need to know. First off Jedi fights, like all swordplay, is about timimg and balance.

 

We never see Vader and Obi do any fancy pants moves because they do not get the job done. And sure the fights between Luke and Vader may not be as cool as Obi and Maul but they do support this theory.

 

When in a sword/saber fight you want to control the center point of the action, not act like a spaz and swing around in circles. The story of the Samuri freezing to death is a perfect example. Most of the time someone who attacks out of balance will end up dead.

 

Take what has been stated in this post to heart and apply it to the game.

 

As for me I like the fights in Empire. We saw a little of what Vader could do with the force once he got going. In the beginning you could tell he was toying with Luke because he used just one hand to swing his saber. Swordfighting teaches you to keep both hands on your hilt for balance and power. But as the fight went on he got a little po at Luke and started in with the two handed heavy swings and the use of the force.

 

I think if he wanted too Luke would have died very quickly. Remember Vader hunted down and destroyed the Jedi...so broken body or not he was a total badass.

[Daishin]

Originally posted by Bluezman

Tolkien has EVERYTHING "hard-coded" in the books, hardly room for interpretation. When you make a film, you have to decide what to leave out because the book is just way too much to put everything into a movie. His vision is so much in-depth you wouldn't believe it. There is just so much backround literature, like he's got it down to even the different languages, he invented the languages with own grammar, spelling, pronounciation etc. etc.

That's not entirely accurate. One of the major interpretation questions Tolkienists have is 'Do Balrogs Have Wings?'..

[Bluezman]

Originally posted by Daishin

That's not entirely accurate. One of the major interpretation questions Tolkienists have is 'Do Balrogs Have Wings?'..

LOL Don't even get me started on this :D