State of ProMod beta 3

[ArtifeX]

Crusher: I'd love to have somebody do a training map, so if you'd like to give it a shot, then contact me at arsartifex@msn.com. Make sure to leave your lucasforums handle in the email so I know who you are.

 

I really like the idea of having a cvar that will allow the player to change the level of feedback that they get. Consider that on my short list for stuff to add in Beta 3. The big thing I think would help would be to have a numerical representation of your CSC value when attacking and defending with the saber. Maybe even some numerical damage indicators above the head of your enemies; red for health damage, green for shield damage. I've already planned to have the CSC flash white when sabers clash or when a body hit occurs to give people a better feel for when the CSC is being tested.

 

Sound could be used as well. Maybe I can rip the quake 3 "hit" tone and put that in for when damage is scored. The current saber damage sound is way too similar to the saber clash sound for my taste.

 

You guys got any more requests for visual/audio feedback?

[CoreyGH]

Isn't there already a sound associated with scoring a hit? The person you hit screams when you hit them, and it's a different scream depending on how much health they have left. There are 4 different screams. Of course, some model authors have screwed this up by making all 4 of the scream sounds for their model identical but that's a whole other discussion.

 

What i'm getting at is, i think the audio indications of a hit are just fine as they are. It's a different sound AND the character screams. If you get a clash sound and it's too similar to the damage sound, then just listen for the guy screaming.

 

Listen to Luke. When he drops below 25hp he starts making this rediculous "Doi" sound.

 

-Soylent Green

[thehomicidalegg]

except the audio thing isnt still absolutely right... sometimes i get a nick for 1 hp, and he lets loose a blood curldling scream as if he got quatered or something

[CoreyGH]

No, it's actually working the way they meant it, albeit that way is kinda silly.

 

There's 4 sound files. One for 100hp-76hp, one for 75-51, one for 50-26, one for 25-1. (Give or take one point, I haven't checked.) The way it works, if you have 100 points and I wack you for 20, you do the 100-75 groan cause you're in that range. But if I'm at 30 and you nick me for 1, then I do the 50-26 scream cause i'm in that range.

 

The scream is more of a gauge of how many HP you have left , not how much damage that particular swing did.

[ArtifeX]

Hmm, I'd think that the sound being triggered by the damage done would make more sense. Nicking them and getting a death-scream out of it is pretty silly, though I recognize the usefulness of knowing when your opponent is close to death.

 

I don't really think the screams are a very good feedback system, either. They're very subjective. Who really knows the difference between the 25-50 and 50-75 scream for every model, anyway?

 

I'll think about this some more.

[Dath Maximus]

hmmm, keep up the work.

 

 

i might swing by the server some time soon

[CoreyGH]

While it's true that no one really knows the difference in screams for all of the models, I don't think you need to know that to take advantage of the sound differences. Just pay attention while your fighting, if the scream changes then you know you've dropped them down another quarter of health.

 

Now that I think about it, that's better than having a yell that's based on how much damage you do to them. Then you really would have to memorize the different scream sounds for each model.

[MrCrusher]

Currently damage feedback is in need of serious revision. Bumping someone with a saber gets the same "yelp" form the opponent as hitting them. Maybe a player model pain_sound could trigger at a much higher threshold. Each pain_sound could have its own threshold. Or the pain_sound could trigger at the threshold 75, 50, 25, 0 health only.

 

Excellent idea on the "health/shield" tag....Might even be as simple as a tag at the end of ones name "MrCrusher 10/25" seen simply by targeting. A cvar to enable and disable. And limit the range that health/shield can be viewed ....Melee range might be suitable. Otherwise snipers could steal frags etc.

 

The CSC could be a very useful place to add feedback, but there may need to be a stationary part, something that doesn't expand and contract, as the feedback meter. Or even the default targeting reticule could be added to.

 

Starting to sound like a Jedi targeting/combat HUD. Cool concept. Could even be added as a pickup. Grab your saber and your Jedi combat HUD and start dueling.... maybe part of another gametype...

[Jah Warrior]

Beta schmeta,

 

When for the love of god are we gonna see a finished article. I'm not interested in beta testing I want a final version that we can start getting to grips with, not buggy crap.

[ArtifeX]

I was thinking more along the lines of adding two small number pairs above the player's head; similar to the way the console icon appears. One would be red, and show the health damage taken, and the other would be green and reflect shield damage taken. These would only be visible to the player dealing out the damage, and only visible for a couple of seconds or until more damage was taken.

 

Hmm, maybe this would be an interesting expansion of Force Sight....

 

On the sounds thing again: don't you think that, even though it's useful to know how much health an enemy has by their pain sounds, that it's still very unrealistic? Pain sounds should act as feedback for the amount of damage delt out because the amount of damage you do is variable. You can't expect to dish out 90 points of damage with every Red swing -- that amount changes based on where you make contact in your swing animation. There is currently no mechanism in jk2 that tells you how much damage you deal with a saber swing. I'm proposing that (at the very least) the pain sound should act in that role.

[CoreyGH]

Yes, that's absolutely true - pain screams based on remaining health isn't as realistic as pain screams based on amount of damage dealt. However, what I'm getting at is the whole memorizing-each-models-pain-sounds problem. The way it stands now, all I need to do is listen for a change in my opponant's scream to know I've nocked him down another quater of health. If the sounds were based on damage dealt, then that would only exacerbate the memorization situation. You'd have to know what you opponant's screams sound like before you go into battle.

 

For some reason I've been thinking about this for a bit so I'm going to put down some of the other things I've been mulling over.

 

Realism - I don't like the floating numbers above the head idea. Maybe as a force sight componant but even then it doesn't seem right. Since pain skins for each model would be a pain to implement I think an aural indication is still the best bet. (Though including the numbers for people to use as a training aid is still a great idea)

 

Usefulness - Personally, I think I'd rather know about how much health you have left, than about how much damage my swing did. I already have a general idea of how much damage each of my swings/kicks/saberthrows does and combined with a good indication of your remaining life I find that the most useful. That is, without resorting to some numerical indication.

 

Problems - Either of the sound solutions still fall prey to lazy/ill meaning model authors. If they make all their sound files identical or silent then all the efforts put into using sound as an effective damage feedback system are in vain. I guess the only real way around that is just community knowledge; promod server sysadmins and ladder/tournament organizers knowing which models shouldn't be loaded onto their servers for the above reasons. Of course, you can always turn on forcemodels but no one want's to do that; detracts from the game atmosphere.

 

I think promod's great and there won't be any changes that could push me back to vanilla JK2, however, I'd rather not see too many more HUD additions. If we start throwing up more numbers everywhere it'll feal more like I'm donning some sort of battle suit (ala Half-life) than playing as a Jedi.

[Toonces]

It would be nice if some type of damage model could be incorperated within JKII, similar to how the cars in GTA3 break apart, but on a much more suttle scale. Bruises, diffrent body positions based on health, a slower run and swing speed when near death. It would be exelent additions to a game like this. I know it's not possible to add anything like this to the game with the limited tools that have been provided to us by Raven and LA.

 

I'm sure whatever you come up with ArtifeX will be great

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by CoreyGH

Yes, that's absolutely true - pain screams based on remaining health isn't as realistic as pain screams based on amount of damage dealt. However, what I'm getting at is the whole memorizing-each-models-pain-sounds problem. The way it stands now, all I need to do is listen for a change in my opponant's scream to know I've nocked him down another quater of health. If the sounds were based on damage dealt, then that would only exacerbate the memorization situation. You'd have to know what you opponant's screams sound like before you go into battle.

...

 

The problem with just listening for a change in pain sound is that, unless you've memorized all the pain sounds, then you'll never know how many "quarters" of health you knocked off of them. I agree that you'd have roughly the same problem if you used the sounds for damage-done feedback, but then at least the learning curve would be shorter because your knowledge would get reinforced every time you landed a swing--no guesswork involved.

 

Realism - I don't like the floating numbers above the head idea. Maybe as a force sight componant but even then it doesn't seem right. Since pain skins for each model would be a pain to implement I think an aural indication is still the best bet. (Though including the numbers for people to use as a training aid is still a great idea)

 

...

 

Problems - Either of the sound solutions still fall prey to lazy/ill meaning model authors. If they make all their sound files identical or silent then all the efforts put into using sound as an effective damage feedback system are in vain. I guess the only real way around that is just community knowledge; promod server sysadmins and ladder/tournament organizers knowing which models shouldn't be loaded onto their servers for the above reasons. Of course, you can always turn on forcemodels but no one want's to do that; detracts from the game atmosphere.

 

I hadn't thought about this. This is a very good point. I'm in the process of putting together a ProMod Map Pack full of well designed community maps. With the above problem in mind, I should probably do the same for models/skins as well.

 

I think promod's great and there won't be any changes that could push me back to vanilla JK2, however, I'd rather not see too many more HUD additions. If we start throwing up more numbers everywhere it'll feal more like I'm donning some sort of battle suit (ala Half-life) than playing as a Jedi.

 

I'm a big fan of visual feedback. Guess it's my background in UI design . With ProMod getting so complex (good thing IMO), the visual feedback is becoming more important than ever to teaching people how to play. For instance, I could just put the Bonus system in place without the Bonus Meters, but I think everyone will agree that the meters are super helpful in learning how that system works. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the better players start turning it off with the console command I provided once they've mastered it. I'll try to keep the "battlesuit" feel to a minimum.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Toonces

It would be nice if some type of damage model could be incorperated within JKII, similar to how the cars in GTA3 break apart, but on a much more suttle scale. Bruises, diffrent body positions based on health, a slower run and swing speed when near death. It would be exelent additions to a game like this. I know it's not possible to add anything like this to the game with the limited tools that have been provided to us by Raven and LA.

...

 

I dunno, it might be possible to add some kind of decals on top of the model skins. Not sure about this one, as it involves areas of the code that I haven't looked at yet. I'd be open to suggestions from anyone who's done work with damage decal systems.

 

I do know that adjusting the models themselves isn't possible except by storing multiple instances of the model pieces. You'd need one for each body part. I don't think that'd be feasible with the way the code is currently written; or if it was, it be big in the hardware requirement department.

[ArtifeX]

A little update on how beta 3's progressing:

 

Saber Stance Trump System - Blue trumps Yellow trumps Red trumps Blue. What do I mean by this? Essentially, if you use Blue against Yellow, then you get a +5 to both your offensive and defensive CSC checks, and the Yellow-using player gets a -5 to off/def against you. This is going to add a whole new dimension to the saber vs. saber combat. You'll have to anticipate your opponent's choice of stance and use the appropriate trump (if you want the trump bonus--you won't have to have it, but it helps) while trying to use deceit to mask your own choice of style.

 

Another big thing this will do is force players who have heretofore used only one style to learn all three in order to compete on a high level.

 

Note: This bonus is significant, but not significant enough to keep a player with great aim from beating an opponent with poor aim, but who has a Trumping bonus. Aim remains the most important factor, and it always will be.

 

It's going to be a great test of your skill to remain dominant using only one Stance now.

 

Strong Stance Chaining - Red style has been reborn. I cannot emphasize enough how much different this style feels just by removing the 45-degree chaining requirement. It now feels almost exactly like a chainable 1.02 red stance. Maximum number of chained attacks remains set at 3.

 

There are some really wicked combination swings possible now, but I'll leave those to you guys to figure out.

 

I was initially going to make other changes to Strong Stance, but after doing this, they're no longer necessary. Strong is now on equal footing with both of the other stances.

[Darth Kaan]

Originally posted by Jah Warrior

Beta schmeta,

 

When for the love of god are we gonna see a finished article. I'm not interested in beta testing I want a final version that we can start getting to grips with, not buggy crap.

 

ArtifeX is working on it sony boy just relax. What he is doing takes time and effort. Move along now, whiners in the back.

[MrCrusher]

Ref: Map & content add-ins.

 

Something to consider. Do two or more independent pak. files: one for the Mod and another's for the maps and various content. When my server is up I'm getting lots of ProMod uploads and if maps were included in the ProMod pak. - client upload times would multiply by a huge factor.

 

This assumes that content is uploaded to clients per pak. I think thats how it works?

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by MrCrusher

Ref: Map & content add-ins.

 

Something to consider. Do two or more independent pak. files: one for the Mod and another's for the maps and various content. When my server is up I'm getting lots of ProMod uploads and if maps were included in the ProMod pak. - client upload times would multiply by a huge factor.

 

This assumes that content is uploaded to clients per pak. I think thats how it works?

 

This is my understanding as well. There'll end up being one .pk3 file for every pack: map pack, model/skin pack. That way, I'll be able to add more packs as more quality content is released, and people won't be forced to download packs they already have.

[Jah Warrior]

Originally posted by Darth Kaan

 

ArtifeX is working on it sony boy just relax. What he is doing takes time and effort. Move along now, whiners in the back.

 

my point is that it should not have been releasded in such an unfinished state be it a beta version. And for the record, beta 1 was better than beta 2, less bugs.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Jah Warrior

...And for the record, beta 1 was better than beta 2, less bugs.

 

I was unaware that there were more bugs in beta 2 than beta 1. Make sure to let me know which bugs you've found in case no one else has reported them.

[Jah Warrior]

Originally posted by ArtifeX

 

I was unaware that there were more bugs in beta 2 than beta 1. Make sure to let me know which bugs you've found in case no one else has reported them.

 

spinning specials in beta 2 were not there in beta 1

[Darth Kaan]

Originally posted by Jah Warrior

 

spinning specials in beta 2 were not there in beta 1

 

Interesting, I play beta 2 all the time and the only special that allows spinning is The yellow finisher.

 

Out of curiosity could you please be more specific? I ask this because "Spinning specials" is a plural term.

[Jah Warrior]

Originally posted by Darth Kaan

 

Interesting, I play beta 2 all the time and the only special that allows spinning is The yellow finisher.

 

Out of curiosity could you please be more specific? I ask this because "Spinning specials" is a plural term.

 

well artifex knows about this, but for your benefit:-

 

ALL the specials are spinnable when playing promod beta 2, and thats from the initial install. I could even run around 'during' the yellow finisher, spin the blue lunge and turn red specials. Admittedy this was intermittent and can not be reproduced on demand but none the less it happened frequently. This simply didnt happen in beta 1.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Jah Warrior

 

well artifex knows about this, but for your benefit:-

 

ALL the specials are spinnable when playing promod beta 2, and thats from the initial install. I could even run around 'during' the yellow finisher, spin the blue lunge and turn red specials. Admittedy this was intermittent and can not be reproduced on demand but none the less it happened frequently. This simply didnt happen in beta 1.

 

Not to worry. The fix for this is in Beta 3 and working fine. It only happens when an enemy clashes sabers with you in mid-swing and your aim relative to them is poor enough for you to be knocked into a defense breaker.

[CoreyGH]

Is there any kind of cap on CSC bonuses? I'm not saying one way or the other that there needs to be, I'm just curious since the bonus meters are finite and you can max out the attack bonus meter just by running forward with strong stance. So, if I'm using Red stance (+5) and I swing and hit your saber (+5) and you're using blue (+5 for trumping you) and I'm running forward (+5) does all this stop somewhere or do I get the complete +20 bonus?

 

Can you give us an idea of how much the bonus is for falling? Like how much would it be for falling from the maximum height of a level 3 force jump?

 

You mention that the +10 trumping bonus is "significant" What exactly do these numbers relate to? Better yet, since combat strength is based on aim, if I have a +5 bonus, how many degrees off center can my aim be while still giving me the same combat strength number that I'd get if I had perfect aim and no +5 bonus?

 

(As I type this, I keep thinking of better ways to ask what is kind of the same question)

 

In the Beta 2 strategy guide there's a colored chart that shows what happens when 2 sabers collide; and the 2 chart axis are based on attacker and defender CS respectively. Both axis stop at 100

 

If I have a large CS bonus, does it only increase the degree range in which I have to aim to reach a score of 100, or can I pass 100 with good enough aim? In effect, If we're both aiming perfectly and our sabers hit, and I have a +15 bonus (for whatever reason) do we get a saber bounce/lock cause our CSs are equal or do I gain an advantage for my bounus? (that's not to say that an increased target size isn't enough of a bonus)

 

Man, just asking this question has given me a better understanding of what's going on with saber combat in promod.

 

COMPLETELY UNRELATED REQUEST TO FOLLOW. . .

Can we set the bot-minimum-players on your server to 2? Sometimes I join the server when there's no one there in hopes that it will prompt others to show up. If I had a bot to smack around with my 733t pr0m0d skiz-nilz I'd be able to wait around a lot longer and not get bored as quick.

 

:EDIT:

By the way, thanks for taking the time to answer all our questions AND code this mod at the same time.

 

-Soylent Green