Guest Jedi Kanigget Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 "That's about the dumbest thing you've said to this point" Hey, if I'd have known insults were fair game I wouldn't have started in on this debate. My point was, if you cannot prove that something is impossible, it should be at least CONSIDERED a possiblity. ------------------ Darth Wart's Strategy Guide in a friendly, easy to use form!(Sorry, that was bad.) http://JediPowerBattlesGuide.homestead.com/JPB.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Acid_Rain327 Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 Where do I begin? I must first say that I unyieldingly agree with Pizza - one hundred percent. Everything he has said has been entirely logical and thought out, if somewhat blunt in it's delivery. What I absolutely must ask of anyone here, possibly Kanigget in particular, I must also ask to be forgiven by them for asking, as I am certain it will offend them... Where is God now? People are suffering, and dying. Innocent people, children, babies are starving, murdered, infected with dire sickness, and are put through lives of hell - and for what? What kind of all-loving God would put his children through such unimaginable torture? What form of father would knowingly place his children in such poverty, danger, pain, suffering? Babies, for crying out loud, go through more pain than we, being teens and older, can never even begin to imagine, in this world. Are we placed here to learn? To know God and to accept him into our lives? How can one accept and learn from God if he steals us away as quickly as he places us here? How are we to look to someone for love and guidance as we watch people all over the world suffer and perish under that same love and guidance? For just one minute, forget the Bible; forget the damn-stupid stories about people walking on water. Forget about blind faith, forget about logic, and think about what I've just said. I'm sorry, but to me, God appears to be a dead-beat dad who's forgotten to pay child-support. If there is a God at all... ------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Verdl Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 I got through maybe 6 or 7 posts before deciding to write anything. Why this topic in the first place. On only my second post, I'll ask again why it's so hard to find topics about the game. Church or peoples beliefs have no place in a forum like this. Let's all try not to keep these things going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darth skywalker Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 Hey Acid rain where did you get the pic of Yoda with the lightsaber? ------------------ *Darth skywalker* Dark sith lord of humor* Member of the Un-council. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Acid_Rain327 Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 Actually, I made it last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jedihorn1 Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 Originally posted by Pizza the Hutt: "One: God isn't racist. He's not specific. Japan, China, Mongolia, etc., He's there for all of them." If, as you say, the Hebrew god favors those people, then he is by definition a racist. So either you're not informed of the definition of a racist or you didn't really mean what you said. Actually, I wasn't raised in a Christian home or in a chuch of any kind. Far from it. I was leaning towards the wicken stuff mantioned earlier. i used to scoff and make fun of, and even hate Christians. That was before God touched my heart and showed me the truth. I am not even ging to try and explain what happened, because I can't. All i know is I came to know God's love, and it wasn't because my parents wanted me too. in fact my Father told me that i was a complete idiot for believing it. I have even taken a lot of grief from my family in the past because of it. Why do I still believe? Because God is REAL. He loves me and i know it. He proves it to me every day. I don't expect you to understand this, because I didn't understand it when I was where you are. I believed and thought just as you did. I am not slamming you in any way. i respect you and your views. I may not agree with them, but I do respect them. Chriatians are not perfect. We hate, we make mistakes, we feel just like everyone else. I am not trying to push anything on you or anyone else. I just now the truth. I have met and fell in love with the living God who loves me and anyone else, and i want to tell others about what I have found so that they too may find the love as i have. If something wonderfull happens to you, you tell your friends about it, don't you? Well, something wonderfull happened to me, and i want to tell you, my friends, about it, because i want you to know the love and the joy that i do. Is my life perfect? No. Do I still feel lonley and have bad days, and feel pain? Yes, but I have a God that conforts me in those times. I can feel His love and know that He is there. debating is poiintless, because it isn't going to effect anyone who has already made up there minds about what they believe. I am simply telling others about the joy i have found. A love and joy that cannot be explained by text books or science. You ask me why i believe? You ask me how I know it is true? I know because i have SEEN it, and FELT it. I KNOW it is true. Oh, ya, and as far as that Hindu thing, we have a woman in our church who was raised hindu and lived as a hindu and practiced the Hindui religion for longer thatn most of us here have been alive. She is now a Christian, because she met the TRUE and LIVING God who answers prayer and loves her. ------------------ Check out my site for SW news rumors, fan fiction and chat! <A HREF="http://jedihorn1.homestead.com/jedihorn1.html There" TARGET=_blank>http://jedihorn1.homestead.com/jedihorn1.html There</A> is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, only knowledge. There is no passion, there is serinity. There is no death, there is the Force. (GOD)-Jedi Code [This message has been edited by jedihorn1 (edited May 04, 2000).] [This message has been edited by jedihorn1 (edited May 07, 2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jedihorn1 Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 Originally posted by Pizza the Hutt: "Let me repeat, God favors no specific people, I believe that is what I said. I never said God favors any race of people." You said the people of Israel were his chosen people. That's a form of racism. One more thing. In response to the "God is a racist" thing. Who the heck are we to dictate to God what is fair or right? He made US. He ownss US. It is by His grace that we are given free will. If you make a pot, dont you have the right to do what you wish with that pot? If you grow a garden, don't you have the right to do what you want with the food and plants grown there. We are arrogent to think that God owes us anything! We do not deserve to have rights or freedom, but we do. If you think we do deserve to have rights and freedom, tell me why? What did we ever do that was worth anything to God? Why does HE owe US? What did we ever do to HIm but disobey Him and hate him and spit in His face? God doesnt have to love anyone. God could kill us all right now and it would be Just and right because we ALL deserve it. Not one of us has lived a perfect life. What have we ever done for God that we deserve life and His love? -----------------Check out my site for SW news rumors, fan fiction and chat! <A HREF="http://jedihorn1.homestead.com/jedihorn1.html There" TARGET=_blank>http://jedihorn1.homestead.com/jedihorn1.html There</A> is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, only knowledge. There is no passion, there is serinity. There is no death, there is the Force. (GOD)-Jedi Code [This message has been edited by jedihorn1 (edited May 04, 2000).] [This message has been edited by jedihorn1 (edited May 07, 2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Acid_Rain327 Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 I don't understand you... This God controls everything right? If this is true, then why did he create so much suffering - if he didn't create it, then why doesn't he STOP it?! Please do not say it is to determine who is and isn't worthy of entering Heaven - if God is entirely omniscient as it is said, then he should know who will not be worthy before he creates them... You're saying we owe God, and he is something to be worshiped, but at the same time, you're saying that he is the cause for the pain, suffering, and death on this planet. Personally, I don't see something that willing creates pain, suffering, and death - then continuously places innocent babies into the center of it - as something to be worshiped... ------------------ <a onMouseover="alert('Get Medievel on you I will! Hmm!')"> </a> [This message has been edited by Acid_Rain327 (edited May 04, 2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Qui-Gon Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 <font face="BernardMod BT"><font color="green1">Haha! Acid_Rain you're my hero! I love it when people use logic on the blind. I doubt they'll see, but good for you for trying. <font color="white"> jedihorn1 Who the heck are we to dictate to God what is fair or right? He made US. He ownss US. It is by His grace that we are given free will. If you make a pot, dont you have the right to do what you wish with that pot? <font color="green1">Jedihorn1 I think you've been smoking it. So by your argument, two people that have wild monkey sex and have a baby are free to make hamburger casserole out of it if they choose? They made it. If I invent a cure for cancer does that mean I can use it as weed killer instead of sharing it with the world? Hey, I invented it. If I make a homemade bomb, does that give me the right to stuff it in your undershorts? Or maybe brain you over the head with this nice pot I just made? ------------------ Master Qui-Gon, Jedi Master Always remember, your focus determines your reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pizza the Hutt Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 "My point was, if you cannot prove that something is impossible, it should be at least CONSIDERED a possiblity." That's an exercise in futility. What good does it do to claim that my hand *could* morph into a golf club? You can't prove that it can't. This is one of my chief complaints with the pious crowd. They are able to explain things with magic and nobody bats an eye. Imagine how easy life would be if we could export this debating style to other parts of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylilin Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 people who are religious do not need proof of anything because they have faith in their respective God(s). the very notion of proof in itself is for scientific use, since science is a system based on proof and prooving. but even in science nothing is 100% proovable. it is useless to use science to explain any religion, because religion is based on faith, and faith alone. ------------------ Kylilin, Jedi Master of being silly Nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jedihorn1 Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 Originally posted by Acid_Rain327: I don't understand you... This God controls everything right? If this is true, then why did he create so much suffering - if he didn't create it, then why doesn't he STOP it?! I hate to tell ya, but we brought the pain and suffering on ourselfs. God made Earth to be a paradise and gave man dominion over it.(read Genisis 1 and 2) it wasn't until man blew it by doing the one thing God told him not to, did sin come into existance. sin leads to pain, pain leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering. (Sorry couldnt help it ) As far as the other post that commented on my last post: I was merley trying to use those as examples. They were very logical, the person that commented just took them to the extreem. the point is still the same; and is still valid. We do not owe God anything, and we have done absolutly nothing to earn His favor or respect. Our bad deeds far outway any of the good that we have ever done. I was merley saying that God has the right to do whatever He wants with us and we have no right to complain. You may not agree, that is your choice. You have your opinion, I have mine. As I have said before, i respect other views. This post has become a debate; a debate neither side will win. I only hope that you may take some of the things we have said and think on them and seek out the truth for yourself, whatever it may be. Those who do not believe in God, I understand your position fully. Everything you have brought up so far are all things i used to ask and use to debate Christians. Because I have been on your "side of the fence" I understand how you see things. All I do is emplore you to seek out the truth with an open mind. I did, and I have found the answers that I sought. I hope that, you, too will do the same. ------------------ Check out my site for SW news rumors, fan fiction and chat! <A HREF="http://jedihorn1.homestead.com/jedihorn1.html There" TARGET=_blank>http://jedihorn1.homestead.com/jedihorn1.html There</A> is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, only knowledge. There is no passion, there is serinity. There is no death, there is the Force. (GOD)-Jedi Code [This message has been edited by jedihorn1 (edited May 07, 2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shinigami Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 to keep in the topic, i suggest all you guys remotley familiar with the bible go rent the movie "dogma." its a movie about faith, (oh yeah and renegade angels trying to prove God wrong so they can get back into Heaven) lots of bible references and stuff, but all you christian extremist, if you see this movie, dont get offended, its just a movie. I, too, am a christian and i found this movie entertaining. oh yeah, its rated R (due to excessive use of the word f*ck, and it has very graphic violence), so all ya lil kiddies need yer parents permission ------------------ Duo Maxwell: the UNcouncil's Authority on Animé "I'm glad you're here to tell us these things!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jericho Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 "The only way to God is through Jesus Christ. If you were to beleive God had different names than you would also have to beleive that he lies. Becasue there is no way to the Father accept through the Son." -Barbabas Antilles See, this is what disturbs me about organized religion. It's this "We're right, you're wrong and no one but us can be saved" crap. An example... You need something done. You have two children, one who is carefree and isn't concerned with responsibilities. The other child is a sensitive, caring kid who never thinks of himself. You want them both to accomplish the same task. What do you tell them? Do you tell the first, carefree kid they MUST do this task? Simply order them to do it? No...because that's not going to be effective. You tell them, do this thing, it'll be FUN! What about the other kid? Do you browbeat them and order them to do it? No..the child is too sensitive for that. You say, Do this for me, I'd really appreciate it. Two different approaches to reach the same result. God does the same thing. If you really, truly believe that God is only concerned with you if you're Christian, you're a fool. What God would single out his people if they believed? Who is to say that Christianity is the right religion? Why would God allow all these other religions? He does so to appeal to all his people, so that everyone has a chance to see his glory. No matter what the point of view. The important thing is to believe. Organized religion is a crutch for people who can't see for themselves and believe for themselves. There's only one religion I know of that doesn't discriminate against people of their faith. Everyone has a spot in Heaven... It's called Judaism. ------------------ Jericho Break the walls down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thermal Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 ***TAKES A DEEP BREATH*** I agree with the first parts of Jericho's post. This is my first post in this topic and it will probably be my only one, since religious discussions are usually very unwieldly. First I'd like to say that I don't think anyone should base their faith on anything Hollywood has to say (Dogma). Movies are great entertainment and special ones are very moving, but if you're choosing a religion or seeking guidance in life, definitely don't go looking to a Hollywood production; speak to real people. Secondly, I was raised in a very religiously neutral home. My father was not religious but he never shyed me away from it. My mother does believe in Christianity but is pretty "low-key" about it so to speak. So I was and am free to choose my own beliefs. As such, I've never felt drawn to any specific organized religion. Mostly for the reasons that Jericho stated; many strong believers of ANY religion come down hard on those who don't share their faith. Even you JediHorn have told us that we are wrong if we don't share your views and that you hope that we will eventually see your faith as being true (although I thank you for trying to be civil about this emotional topic). More blood has been shed throughout time because of religious disagreements than ANY OTHER CAUSE. This is what makes me wary of organized religions. Not the Billions of members who happily and silently live by their faith every day, but the lesser millions who can't stand the thought of other people not loving THEIR God(s), and in some extreme cases like the Middle East, are willing to kill those they can't convert. I don't personally believe in the Bible other than that it gives the world many great ideas to live by. But even the Bible is subjective to different readers. Harmless passages have led to Hate crimes by extreme believers who bend somple, loving ideas in the Bible to fit their own views. And this is the basic flaw with major religions in my view. ANY time you try to get several people to agree on something, you will have disagreements. No group agrees on EVERYTHING. Look at this board; something as simple and trivial as opinions of a video game can lead to verbal fights. Now imagine we were deciding whose soul would be saved when they die. That ups the stakes considerably. This is why I avoid "organized" religions. They require me to make too much of a commitment based on the opinions of others. So long for now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ShadeShifter Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 "Everything in the Bible took place there. Plus your argument on us baseing everything on a 2000 year old book is not sound. EVERYTHING you believe is based on books and such from just as old if not older books and studies. Did you think the stuff you study in school just popped up in the last 100 years. Of course not. It has its foundation built on things from thousands of years ago. Of course, your argument crumbles upon just a cursory examination of this segment. With time comes the ability to repeatedly test old information to ensure its integrity. It's constantly evolving and refining. Your imation does not have that ability. It is written in the context of the (often erroneous) knowledge available 2,000 years ago, and as such should be taken with a large dose of salt." Actually, much of the Bible has been proven accurate by archiologhists and historians scientists. And the Bible has, in turn, helped archiologists and historians find many places that would have gone undiscovered. I'm amazed at how easily you can say that faith in an 2000 year old book, which has been proven to have a great deal of historical accuracy, crazy, but show faith in scientific methods and ideas that at one time were claimed to be correct, but now are found to be inaccurate. Check the earlier posts about carbon dating. Scientists have proven themselves wrong, very recently, when, through their "accurate (used sarcasticly)" research, they found that the earth was older than the universe. Scientists once believed that the neucleus of an atom was embeded with electrons, but now it is believed that electrons float around the neucleus. A scientific theory is just that, a theory. There is no fact in theory. In fact, a theory, by definition, cannot be proven to be fact. It is only an idea that stands as long as no one proves it false. Theories become accepted when people accept them on the faith that they are correct. I personally have faith in the Bible and in Jesus Christ. I believe that the miricals Jesus did actually happend, and I belive that miricals still happened today because I have seen one. I believe that Christ died and was ressurected to save me from my sins. I accept this on faith. I accept him as savior through faith. My faith in Christ is no different then the faith that you hold in scientific theories UNTIL they are proven false. ------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ob-have Posted May 6, 2000 Share Posted May 6, 2000 i guess i'll add my 2 cents, for what it's worth, in regards to the posts that argue against science, and praise the historical "truth" of the bible. Science never claims to be true, scientific theories claim to be the best possible answer at the momement. they are falsifiable. Religious beliefs, like believing in God, are claiming to be "true." To believe in the existence of God is a nonfalsifiable claim, you can never prove his existence, you just have feeling or sense that he exists. Scientific theories and religious beliefs are basically stories. "Truth" has nothing to do with it. Language can not express truths, it always remains a symbol or metaphor for something. By defining one thing, like Jesus is our Lord, we disregard something, like Buddah. Having faith is not a bad thing, as it can provide people with a sense of well-being. The big problem that i have with Christianity is that it makes people place God over themselves, and the afterlife over this one. What if when you die, that's it, no afterlife, no nothing. Think of all the time you wasted preaching the word of God, instead of working to make this world a better place. How can anyone claim that evolution is a less valid theory than the fairytale notion that Eve was created from Adam's rib. I don't mean to be offensive, just expressing my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ob-have Posted May 6, 2000 Share Posted May 6, 2000 on a humourous note, check out http://www.jesus.com to find Jesus on the net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jericho Posted May 6, 2000 Share Posted May 6, 2000 Ok, here's a story of a discussion one of my friends had with a minister... The minister insisted that God created Science to tempt and confuse us and the Bible was correct. My friend, a physics major, turned to him and said, "Isn't it possible that God created the Bible to tempt and confuse us, and that Science is correct?" ------------------ Jericho Break the walls down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Acid_Rain327 Posted May 6, 2000 Share Posted May 6, 2000 Hehehe...what was the minister's response? ------------------ <a onMouseover="alert('Away put your mouse, or Medieval I will get! Hmm!')"> </a> [This message has been edited by Acid_Rain327 (edited May 06, 2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jedihorn1 Posted May 6, 2000 Share Posted May 6, 2000 Originally posted by Jericho: Ok, here's a story of a discussion one of my friends had with a minister... The minister insisted that God created Science to tempt and confuse us and the Bible was correct. My friend, a physics major, turned to him and said, "Isn't it possible that God created the Bible to tempt and confuse us, and that Science is correct?" Actually, on a technicallity, the minister is wrong. God doesn't tempt anyone, Satan does. God only allows us to be tempted. it is up to us weather we will allow ourselves to fall to that temptation. All this is in the Bible. -----------------Check out my site for SW news rumors, fan fiction and chat! <A HREF="http://jedihorn1.homestead.com/jedihorn1.html There" TARGET=_blank>http://jedihorn1.homestead.com/jedihorn1.html There</A> is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, only knowledge. There is no passion, there is serinity. There is no death, there is the Force. (GOD)-Jedi Code [This message has been edited by jedihorn1 (edited May 07, 2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Acid_Rain327 Posted May 6, 2000 Share Posted May 6, 2000 So, now you're saying that science is the work of the devil, as it lures us from the Bible? Right...so, what I'm seeing is that science allows us to help fight and cure disease and suffering, which God allows to remain on this planet and hurt his children, but at the same time, science is also an evil because it draws us away from that which allows these diseases to remain...uh huh... Given a choice between the Bible and science capable of helping people who are suffering, supposedly under the will of God, I'd take the damn science over the Bible any day. [This message has been edited by Acid_Rain327 (edited May 06, 2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jericho Posted May 6, 2000 Share Posted May 6, 2000 Well, that's the way it was relayed to me secondhand. At any rate...the point is to breach the question, since there seems to be a debate between Science and Religion here. Of course, it's my belief that all this conflict is a wasted construct of humans, and God himself is certainly more openminded and broad thinking that we as humans seem to be. This thread has demonstrated that quite effectively. By the way, the minister wasn't very happy with the response. ------------------ Jericho Break the walls down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Barnabas Antilies Posted May 6, 2000 Share Posted May 6, 2000 To: Jericho I Never said anything about organized religion. And it seems to me if there is a Satan or a bad force against religion, than the Cristians are a great representation that he exists. Of all the religions in the world christianity is the only one that is divided on so many different views. Showing that Satan is attacking the church and making them bicker and disagree. As for religion I am a christian but I have no denomination. I beleive in God and the Bible and that Jesus died on the cross. Tell me how that is organized. ------------------ Father Barnabas Antilies, Supreme Chancelor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shinigami Posted May 6, 2000 Share Posted May 6, 2000 Originally posted by Thermal: First I'd like to say that I don't think anyone should base their faith on anything Hollywood has to say (Dogma). okay, just to clarify, i meant to say that you guys should see Dogma to lighten up, just as entertainment, im sorry if i wasnt clear about it but i did clearly state, ITS JUST A MOVIE, even the director states at the beginning that it is just that. ------------------ Duo Maxwell: the UNcouncil's Authority on Animé "I'm glad you're here to tell us these things!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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