Darth Kaan Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 I decided to kickback on saturday and watch the special edition original trilogy again. Twenty years after the first time I saw it, the duel and conversation between Vader and Luke at the end of ESB is still the most intense of them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qui-Gon Jinn 64 Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 You thought that was intense? OK, some great moves with the lightsaber are there, but that duel is nothing compared with the prequel duels (Episode I and II). Maybe the "I am your father!" line made that duel great, but in terms of skill, moves and speed I would go with Episode I and II. Only my two pence. I'm not saying your opinion of the duel is wrong, or anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckcsaber Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 I also think that the ep. 5 Luke and Vader duel was intense. Same with the ep. 6 duel. I find them much more intense then the ep 1+2 duels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Monk Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 I also think that the ep. 5 Luke and Vader duel was intense. Same with the ep. 6 duel. I find them much more intense then the ep 1+2 duels There is much more emotion in the Original Trillogy duels (with the exception of the Vader/Obi-Wan duel of ANH). Luke hasn't learned to control his emotions yet, and Vader uses his emotion to give him power. The classic Jedi Order suppress their emotions for clearity of mind; when they fight, they do so very deliberately. We've seen where emotion gets a Jedi: In TPM, after Qui-Gon is struck down, Obi-Wan, enraged, attacks Darth Maul. Though his emotions give him a burst of power, it also serves to cloud his mind. He winds up inches away from falling to his death. In AotC, Anakin attacks Dooku in anger for attempting to kill Padme (who doubts that when Anakin says "You'll pay for all of the Jedi you've killed today," he's really saying "You'll pay for trying to kill Padme"?). His judgement is clouded, and he leaves himself open to Dooku's lightning. He's down. In ESB, Luke is never in control. He's always on the run, until finally his hand is severed and he has to go someplace where even Vader's not crazy enough to go--straight down. He ends up hanging inches from falling to his death. Anyone else see any symbolism in this scenario? In RotJ, Luke was much more in control of his emotions, much more like a classic Jedi. But Vader knows how to push buttons, and soon he has Luke going at him like a maniac. Nothing really bad happens to Luke, but he's lost his judgement, and almost falls again--this time to the Dark Side. Though the battles in the OT might seem more emotionally charged, the point is that this is a bad thing. Emotion leaves a Jedi open for a fall, either a physical one or a descent into the Dark Side. When Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are fighting Darth Maul, it's just a part of their job. They have no relationship with this Sith Lord, they know only that he is an enemy. They don't talk to him, he doesn't talk to them--they have nothing more than a professional relationship. The translation of the Duel of the Fates says much about this--Under the tongueroot a battle most dread, while another rages behind in the head. They are mental fighters, as much as physical warriors. There is more between Yoda and Dooku in AotC, and it's much more like a return to the duels of the OT; they're talking to eachother, but neither is really trying to convert the other. In this same battle, Dooku taunts Obi-Wan, but apart from saying "I don't think so" in responce to Dooku demanding Obi-Wan to stand down, Obi-Wan remains silent. That is his dedication: he is a silent, deliberate, emotionless warrior who is at one with the Force. Will we see Obi-Wan come out of his shell in SW3? Will we see Anakin trying to turn him to the Dark Side and Obi-Wan trying to bring Anakin back? These two obviously have a more emotional relationship--arguably, even more so than the relationship between Luke and Vader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taos Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 .........You know Jedi Monk.....you should teach a class on the subject of Star Wars....... I think the ESB duel is very intense and one of my favorite jedi/sith duels in all of star wars (along with all of the others!! ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratmjedi Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 Well along with what Jedi_Monk said I think that the ESB duel was very dangerous. If you look at it there are a lot of dangers. There is that great fall. Then there is all the wind. It was a very dangerous surrounding. In EP I the surrounding is dangerous but not very. In EP IV Luke is almost killed how many times? The fight was also fast if you think about it. In EP I if you watch it very closely and slowly if is slow. Just that there is too people makes it look fast. and the Sith Lightsaber. In EP IV the fight is fast and precise and there are rarely any oppurtunity's to get hits in. Then there are all the emotions going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qui-Gon Jinn 64 Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 You say there is no relationship between Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Darth Maul? Well, Luke has no relationship with Vader in The Empire Strikes Back duel, it's only when the duel is over that he learns the truth. Fair enough, the Return of the Jedi duel was quite emotional, but in terms of lightsaber combat skill it was the worst of all. Also, emotion is best judged by expressions on people's faces, and in the original trilogy Darth Vader had no face: just a shining black mask, hiding all expressions. In The Phantom Menace, you can see the rage in Darth Maul's eyes, the gritting teeth, the scowl on his face (added to by the superb tattoo and horns) and the energy put behind every lunge/strike/parry. Obi-Wan is usually looking for a way past Maul's defences, and when his master is killed he goes into overdrive, his facial expressions and cry of anger displaying much emotion indeed. Qui-Gon's face, although hidden by flying hair and a beard, shows calm concentration, plus a dash of worry conveyed by the fact that he knows he cannot defeat Darth Maul. Facial expressions are very important, and hiding the bad guys face in the original films only leaves us with Luke, who is unskilled and has no facial expressions at all. Episode II's only big lightsaber duel at the end is amazing, again because nothing is hidden behind masks/long flailing hair. Count Dooku is superb, and his confidence is portrayed through a smug expression on his face while duelling the three Jedi. Obi-Wan, however, shows little facial movements at all, and his duel is over within seconds. I'll give you that one... Anakin thinks that Padme is dead, and so attaks in anger. His emotions, actions and sharp, choppy movements portrays his anger and sorrow for Padme, and when he is cut down the pain is conveyed brilliantly. Yoda is CG, and does not count. I think this is one of those opinion things, but in my opinion the prequels rule in the lightsaber duel department. The original trilogy, although with some good lightsaber effects and moves, portrays very little, and relies on other factors to make them amazing films. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted October 21, 2002 Author Share Posted October 21, 2002 It was the duel as a whole. Vader's ominous presence, his using force powers to batter Luke with things he tore off walls etc. Also, something I feel the need to point out, The line "Luke...I AM your father." was much more of an impact back then, no one KNEW for sure that Vader was indeed once Anakin Skywalker, Luke's father, because EP 1 & 2 had not been made yet, hell, ROTJ had not been made yet. Being one of many that watched the original trilogy as it transpired, it was awesome to see that 25 years later it still has the magic that got me hooked as a SW fan to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted October 21, 2002 Author Share Posted October 21, 2002 Originally posted by Jedi_Monk There is much more emotion in the Original Trillogy duels (with the exception of the Vader/Obi-Wan duel of ANH). Luke hasn't learned to control his emotions yet, and Vader uses his emotion to give him power. The classic Jedi Order suppress their emotions for clearity of mind; when they fight, they do so very deliberately. We've seen where emotion gets a Jedi: In TPM, after Qui-Gon is struck down, Obi-Wan, enraged, attacks Darth Maul. Though his emotions give him a burst of power, it also serves to cloud his mind. He winds up inches away from falling to his death. In AotC, Anakin attacks Dooku in anger for attempting to kill Padme (who doubts that when Anakin says "You'll pay for all of the Jedi you've killed today," he's really saying "You'll pay for trying to kill Padme"?). His judgement is clouded, and he leaves himself open to Dooku's lightning. He's down. In ESB, Luke is never in control. He's always on the run, until finally his hand is severed and he has to go someplace where even Vader's not crazy enough to go--straight down. He ends up hanging inches from falling to his death. Anyone else see any symbolism in this scenario? In RotJ, Luke was much more in control of his emotions, much more like a classic Jedi. But Vader knows how to push buttons, and soon he has Luke going at him like a maniac. Nothing really bad happens to Luke, but he's lost his judgement, and almost falls again--this time to the Dark Side. Though the battles in the OT might seem more emotionally charged, the point is that this is a bad thing. Emotion leaves a Jedi open for a fall, either a physical one or a descent into the Dark Side. When Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are fighting Darth Maul, it's just a part of their job. They have no relationship with this Sith Lord, they know only that he is an enemy. They don't talk to him, he doesn't talk to them--they have nothing more than a professional relationship. The translation of the Duel of the Fates says much about this--Under the tongueroot a battle most dread, while another rages behind in the head. They are mental fighters, as much as physical warriors. There is more between Yoda and Dooku in AotC, and it's much more like a return to the duels of the OT; they're talking to eachother, but neither is really trying to convert the other. In this same battle, Dooku taunts Obi-Wan, but apart from saying "I don't think so" in responce to Dooku demanding Obi-Wan to stand down, Obi-Wan remains silent. That is his dedication: he is a silent, deliberate, emotionless warrior who is at one with the Force. Will we see Obi-Wan come out of his shell in SW3? Will we see Anakin trying to turn him to the Dark Side and Obi-Wan trying to bring Anakin back? These two obviously have a more emotional relationship--arguably, even more so than the relationship between Luke and Vader. That's because in the OT, there was no structure. There was no Jedi Council, hell, there was only two Jedi left, Obi and Yoda. Luke started training at a late age, making due, learning what he could from his brief time with Obi Won and Later with Yoda. Hardly the prefered method. However, he did manage and matured realistically throughout the OT. Emotion makes the characters real. Otherwise it would be boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qui-Gon Jinn 64 Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 I was there, back in 1977, when the first ever Star Wars film came out, and there at the first showing of The Empire Strikes Back. Believe me, I was in shock when Darth Vader declaired his fatherhood, plus there was no website with a leaked script so I didn't know before-hand! Yet, it was an amazing duel back then, when the film was being shown for the first time. However, I do feel that the Episode I duel was much better than any from the original films. The double-bladed lightsaber, tattooed visage of Maul, two Jedi on one bad guy, the massive arena, the speed, moves and athletic grace of Jedi in their prime. After all, the only people fighting in the original trilogy are half droid/men dark lords, crazy old wizards, young apprentices and wicked old Emperor's (granted, the last person had about three seconds of lightning blasting...). The prequels show experianced Jedi Knights, hatred fuelled Sith Lords and trained Padawan learners. In my opinion, the prequel duels are much better, skill-wise and move-wise and speed-wise, plus weapon-wise and location-wise. Oh... and character-wise... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 Originally posted by Qui-Gon Jinn 64 You say there is no relationship between Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Darth Maul? Well, Luke has no relationship with Vader in The Empire Strikes Back duel, it's only when the duel is over that he learns the truth. Fair enough, the Return of the Jedi duel was quite emotional, but in terms of lightsaber combat skill it was the worst of all. The duel was emotionally charged even though Luke didn't know about his relationship to Vader. Vader knew, and Luke had another emotional commitment to the match since he thought Vader was his father's murderer. Ktyllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qui-Gon Jinn 64 Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 Darth Maul is the first dark lord of the Sith in 1,000 years to attack the Jedi Knights! It is a corner-stone in the galaxy, a turning point in the lives of the Jedi and the Sith Lords, and the Jedi are fighting for the entire Republic and it's safety (which the Jedi have sworn an oath to protect). Luke had nothing to defend against: the Empire already ruled the galaxy, and killing Vader would have only slowed the Empire down, since Palpatine was still seated firmly in the seat of power back on Coruscant. Darth Maul was a threat to the entire galaxy and it's foundations, yet Vader already had the galaxy in his grasp. There is no importance in the Luke/Vader duel during Episode V, yet there is the entire galaxy to fight for during Episode I, with Darth Maul being the main threat to the Republic. If Maul survived the duel, the Jedi would be old news within a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 I disagree. If Maul survived the duel then Obiwan would have just hunt him down. If Obiwan died as well, then you can be pretty sure that some of the 9,998 jedi remaining would have been sent to hunt him down. Besides, we're talking about how the emotions of the duel effected the intensity of it. As stated earlier, Quigon and Obiwan were just doing their jobs when fighting Maul. It was Quigon's death that really put any emotion into it. Luke and Vader's fight had emotion throughout their duel. Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qui-Gon Jinn 64 Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 This argument could go on forever... I think it is a matter of opinion, and in my opinion the lightsaber duel from "Episode I - The Phantom Menace" is better everything-wise than the original trilogy and it's lightsaber conflicts. Hey, all the films are perfect, so I'm not complaining about any factor of the Star Wars saga... I just prefer the prequel duels... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted October 22, 2002 Author Share Posted October 22, 2002 Yes the "Duel" in episode 1 was "better" in that it was choreographed, had better effects and sounds and the point you make make about the pugilists be younger is valid. However, it should be better, technology improved alot in 20 years... My whole point was the intensity of everything happening, the duel only being a part of all that was going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 Yeah, the episode I duel was better as an example of excellent swordplay... as an example of what Jedi and Sith can really do with lightweapons. But imho it lacked the emotional intensity of the Empire and Jedi... though it picked up a bit after Quigon died. Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted October 23, 2002 Author Share Posted October 23, 2002 I hope any duels in EP3 have the "intensity" along with the flashy moves and such. I am hpoing EPIII is well worth the wait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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