MilesTeg Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 1. To all Demo players: Should there be a certain limit in detail? Or should we try to make the levels as detailed as JO levels (or even more) ? There could be improvements in detail in the following places of secbase (without performance drop): - The room where you find the imperial with key. - the basement (the Deathstar plan room) - Secret Emporer building Everything else can only get a slight and careful improvement of detail. 2. Plz do me a favour and make a short list of what you think needs to be improved in terms of level design (even if you already posted it in this forum) and post it in this thread. It would save me a lot of time I can´t fullfill all your wished (I´m not Santa Claus ), but I´ll keep them in mind when I have to make changes in the level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IS_Raptor3k Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 Just to be vague... I think that the level is good, but i have been spoiled by outstanding level designs, models, and music, so yes, add ton of detail. Also it wouldnt kill you to use the some of the music in JO. Ok other than that you mod looks fantastic and I hope that it gets finished. ****(uses force)Yes, you will change the music.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 I liked it all, MilesTeg! You guys did a great job. BUT, since you bring it up... I think the room where the key is should have a camera monitor. He is, afterall, the night watchman according to the novel... I noticed a camera in the DS plan room. I don't know if that was in the original, but it is sure cool. You should post cameras elsewhere that all work so the player can use the monitor system to find certain areas. I am someone who always enjoys camera systems in games. The Emperor's "lounge" was cool, and on my hundreth time throught the demo, I noticed a dead prisoner on the ground. Very cool. So, just the security room could have a little feature such as that. But if you're talking about changing those stupid textures in the basement, the ones on the counter, FORGET it! *** Don't change the music... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey S Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 Areas which could (and should!) be improved: -Secret area with interrogation droids. Lots of stuff should be added here; pillars, sloped walls, pipes, the lot. It's far too bare. -Some of the exterior cliffs were too straight. Add outcroppings, little caves and stuff. And once the player's breached the exterior walls (the secret) the cliffs look very bad, particularly if the player walks as far as he can go. -Panels should be sloped. Not the ones on the wall, but the little ledges connected to the main wall. It's a bit vague, I know; think of the ledges in the basement area. -Death Star plans room has plenty of room for pillars, pipes, and minor detail like that. -The room just before the last elevator, just after the Death Star plans are picked up, is in essence just a box. That room can use a lot more detail. -The landing pad is far too bare. Try adding a big 'L' for landing on the floor, or details along the wall. -The main hallway you start in is nice, but perhaps a pipe can be added along the ceiling, and continuing in the exterior areas? -More sloped walls in the interior areas. Anything from pillars to the walls themselves. There's plenty of oppurtunity for that kind of stuff. Perhaps a couple of little ones can be used in the bits connecting corridors? For instance, in the bits connecting the four circular rooms in the secret area. -Add a broken door between the area which opens the secret panels in the main hallway and the ledge outside. How else did the stormies get there? Basically, add as much detail as the engine can support. Mainly more pillars, beams and pipes across the ceilings, and some sloped walls. The level already looks nice, but with the added detail JO supports it can look spectacular. The design's up there with modern games as it is, so that's no problem. - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilIguana966 Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 Well, here are a fww things: First try to make things perfectly believeable. Levels dont need to be modelled exactly. Like for example look at the Executor level. There were some jumps over those pillars that were there for gameplay but dont make sense for Star Wars these days. What you could do in a case like that is add what appear to be entendable bridges that arent extended. In the Executor hanger, use the extended universe resources to model the Super Star Destroyer hanger a bit more realistically. Instead of having the cargo transport be moved along those series of gates you could increase the opposition and maybe have several ovverides to release magnetic clamps and tractor beams. Be creative and makes things seem to meld perfectly with Star Wars. They didnt have the ability to do all these neat things back in 1996, we do now) On the subject of detail. Take for example the secret base and the computer consoles all over. Rather than following the origional exactly, out some elevated panels and screens in varioius places. Add in prefabs from current JO multiplayer levels so it seemns like this is one world and it doeasnt seem outdated. Don't chhange the story of Dark Forces, just try to explain all the details better. Really try to make the world more interactive and realistic. Maybe even add some troopers on patrol or if you can get the voice talent, some troopers having conversations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Linux Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 Originally posted by IS_Raptor3k ****(uses force)Yes, you will change the music.... the music is half the charm of Dark Forces . . . it isn't going to be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey S Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 The music is nice, as in Star Wars, but you should really do better than MIDI. Just because it worked well when the game was released doesn't mean it doesn't sound terrible (at times) now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_One Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 Originally posted by Katarn07 I liked it all, MilesTeg! You guys did a great job. BUT, since you bring it up... I think the room where the key is should have a camera monitor. He is, afterall, the night watchman according to the novel... I noticed a camera in the DS plan room. I don't know if that was in the original, but it is sure cool. You should post cameras elsewhere that all work so the player can use the monitor system to find certain areas. I am someone who always enjoys camera systems in games. The Emperor's "lounge" was cool, and on my hundreth time throught the demo, I noticed a dead prisoner on the ground. Very cool. So, just the security room could have a little feature such as that. But if you're talking about changing those stupid textures in the basement, the ones on the counter, FORGET it! *** Don't change the music... OK, your question kinda resolves the Easter Egg Hunt There IS a camera monitor in the officer's room - hit all the panels and you will find it. There is also a camera monitor in the first room of the level - up the steps on the right, hit all of those panels and you will find it. There are some nice camera view points in the level. These are pretty well hidden In teh final version there will be proper (noticable) panels for computer monitors. It adds to the interactivity of the level. Anyway, that's the easter egg for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichyBoy Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 What can I say apart from - what a fantastic demo! Keep up the good work guys! With regard to the detail, yeah you probably could afford to to add more detail to break things up a bit so you don't notice the boxiness inherent in the level design quite as much. Just things like sloping floors, more detail in the cliff faces etc. - mostly geometric changes. Also, the lighting could do with a bit more work. Obviously, lighting is always the hardest thing to get spot on, but you need to get more varied light levels within individual rooms. At the moment it's like you've got huge individual lights in each room creating unifrom brightness thoughout. If you can make the light seem more like it's coming from individual sources with shadowy corners etc. it would look much better and again help the design seem less boxy. As for the music, I liked the in-game MIDI sequencing, but the Star Wars theme MIDI in the opening simply has to go. You've got great up-to-date graphics for the game and cutscenes, but it sort of lets it down when your big opening has music that sounded lame 8 years ago, let alone today. By all means keep the in-game sequencing - that's good, but for the intro either use the original orchestral track from the Jedi Outcast assets or resample it using a MUCH better waveset - ideally you want to be using soundfonts and a Creative Audigy card to playback and record the music and convert it to MP3. And don't just use the MIDI sequence of the theme from the original game - it was orchestrated to sound passable on adlib cards. If possible, it needs re-sequencing from scratch so that it's more like Herb Spencer's original orchestration. The menu screen is great, although the scanline effect across the main image didn't seem to look right at any resolution, i.e. the lines were unevenly spaced. There were two other little niggles I had, but they may well be stupidity on my part. Firstly, shouldn't Kyle have a flashlight, or did I miss it? I couldn't see anything inside that secret cave in the cliff face. Also, with the little red lights outside the base you've got the sound effect for them breaking when you shoot them, but they seem to remain undamaged - I assume you're going to add that effect later? Anyway, these minor things aside, this looks like it's going to be one of the best mods I've ever seen for any game. I'm very impressed by your work guys - you do the Star Wars gaming community proud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 I tried that once! Just one, and it was in the officer's watch room. I guess I had to try them all first. lol, boy, was I close... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcountryman03 Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 okay first off, great job on the demo. From the moment i saw the loading screen it was mad nostalgia. But about inprovements: I know that the origional was very blocky but that is all the DF engine could allow. Try making more sloping walls in the caves and such. You kinda started to get the right idea but go with it a little more. Also the cliff walls outside are a little unrealistic, meaning that they are to flat. as for inside, the camera monitors should be apart from the rest of the computers. But overal great job. Just in terms of map design, try not to stay EXACTLY with the original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic_Al`s DF Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 The MIDI music during the opening is a big part of the fun of this mod. Before the demo was released I was in the camp of wondering if the movie soundtrack should be tracked in whenever possible and if MIDI should only be used for the original Dark Forces themes, but when the mod loaded, the MIDI Star Wars theme made me smile, so it should definitely stay. As for the "detail" issue, I'd say that generally one should think of the original Dark Forces as suffering from "low resolution", and that any detail that is added must only be visible at "high resolution". In other words new details shouldn't contradict the original game -- they were there all along, you just couldn't see them! On the other hand, I'm also in favor of respecting the movies over Dark Forces when it comes to visuals, so if it can be determined that something in DF is trying to look like a specific object or design from the movie, the movie version should prevail. This would argue in favor of movie-level detail on the Corellian Corvette level, for example, which DF did pretty well with the interior but not the exterior. Since the Death Star hologram in the demo looks more influenced by Episode II than Dark Forces, it looks like the team is already thinking this way. If there is a desire to add new features or rooms, I think the best way to do it would be to take objects, control panels, and doors that were present but non-functional in the original game and do something within them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Nice job so far! I definately felt like I was playing Dark Forces I again after playing the DFJK2 TC demo (although I missed the rest of the cutscenes/mission briefings). I wonder if it would be possible to put the "auto map" overlay back into the game, considering JK2 lacks it? A minor thing, but the fists shouldn't make the "smack" sound except when hitting a wall or enemy. The "swoosh" part of the sound effect should be heard alone when hitting air. I think that the level of detail (and it's just MHO) should be at least that of the original DF (with improved textures of course) as seen in the demo, but if its raised for dramatic effect in certain areas, I'm all for that too. ; ) PS: Good to see you again Al! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImmolatedYoda Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 yeah, im all for having everything exactly like the original, except for the graphics. i dont really care about curves and columns and pipes and junk being added to bring it up to date or anything, the whole point is to recreate the original DF. however, its not like im not going to play it just because of a pipe in the ceiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Linux Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Originally posted by Magic_Al`s DF On the other hand, I'm also in favor of respecting the movies over Dark Forces when it comes to visuals, so if it can be determined that something in DF is trying to look like a specific object or design from the movie, the movie version should prevail. This would argue in favor of movie-level detail on the Corellian Corvette level, for example, which DF did pretty well with the interior but not the exterior. Since the Death Star hologram in the demo looks more influenced by Episode II than Dark Forces, it looks like the team is already thinking this way. Yes indeed we are using the movies as sort of a definitive guide and the hologram is just one example. We messed with the shaders for a week on that thing . . . I think the mappers are using the movies as a reference whenever there is a question of architecture or functionality (i.e. should that door be like the blast doors in ANH? "close the blast doors . . . open the blast doors") thanks for the kind words Magic!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichyBoy Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 One other thing I thought of - as you've already got searchlights in place, it would be cool if you could script it so that when Kyle stumbles into the beams they track him until he moves out of reach and an alarm could go off too. You could even have a probe droid or two being released like in the first level of Artus Prime in JO, although that might detract from the surprise of the other searchlight trap on the Coruscant level later in the game. Definately do that tracking thing though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Well, yes, I forgot about the rocks outside. They are a bit sharp edged. Just round them off and round the cave up a bit too. That is all that needs to be done in my opinion. A few pipes in the ceiling couldn't hurt, and maybe even some pillars built into the wall (like in the first hallway) would fix up that secret area leading to the Emperor's "lounge". I really liked the dynamic lighting of the alarm lights outside. I can't wait to see what else can be done to DF with that feature... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATMachine Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 You guys might want to change how the Infrared Goggles work. It would be great if you could do it like in DF, with the screen turning green when you put them on. What would be a good effect would be to use something similar to the green with scanlines you see when you activate the hidden camera interfaces. That'd be perfect. Of course, being able to do that is probably a long way off.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Linux Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 they are as green as I could make them. the algorithm used by the shader for the goggles is a nightmare to adjust, so what it is now is probably the best it will be. remember, this is NOT a total conversion replicating every detail. It's a MOD designed to capture the "essence" of the original game. we aren't going to pull our hair out and go mad trying to pull off every little nuiance of a game whose design and implementation is full of compromises and technology limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Toddy Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 I personally like the level the way it is. It brought back a feeling of playing DF for the first time - very nostalgic. As for adding details, there are just a few things I would like to see: more ambient sounds in the level, make the outside areas look much more realistic (jaggy rocks, maybe rocks falling in a few places). The caves (like where the extra life is hidden) should also get more detail added - stuff like little streams and waterfalls. I like the idea of the search light tracking Kyle (like the searchlights in MoH:AA or SoFII) if it spots Kyle, an alarm would sound and tons of guards would attack him. That would be pretty cool. As for the music, leave it the way it is except for the midi Star Wars theme - replace it with the orchestrated version. That's about all I can think of now that needs to be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Linux Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Originally posted by Master Toddy - stuff like little streams and waterfalls. this would flood the secret base! As for the music, leave it the way it is except for the midi Star Wars theme - replace it with the orchestrated version. That's about all I can think of now that needs to be changed. this would create incongrous music - a game full of MIDI music and a fully symphonic intro would be like having a rusty hubcap on one wheel and 3 24"s on the rest of the Denali - it would be completely out of place and character . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImmolatedYoda Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 lol great analogy Darth, even though i have no idea what it means Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Toddy Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Originally posted by Darth_Linux this would flood the secret base! I'm not talking about huge waterfalls, I'm talking about like a small stream that could be running into a small, dark opening, like in the cave with the secret life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 How about the ambient sounds of dripping in the cave. You don't need to see it... If the searchlight hits you, those red lights should go on and then a quiet alarm should sound briefly, but don't add more bad guys to kill you. It is afterall the first level. If anything, take out some of those guys in the full version! I don't remember, do you continue JO with the same health and ammo count as in the past level? What about DF? If so, you'll have to reduce the bad guy count. If not, leave it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm225 Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 The only thing I think could use more detail is the room with the key: Dark Forces original Mod The original has a brighter room with more lights it seems. Other than that, I have no complaints, the level looks great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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