FEEDBACK: secbase - lack of detail etc.

[bmartin334]

I think the game so far is great. Very good rebuild of the original. It has a lot of potential for being a game worthy of Star Wars fans and Raven alike. My question is: Why are you designing the game only half way? The whole point was to update the original game to today's standards. While I appreciate the nostalgic feeling I get when playing the demo - the sounds of the game are of the original and are almost rediculous sounding when you compare them to the visual graphics of the game. I suggest updating the whole game, visual and audible alike, to be current with todays standards. I am a huge fan of DF, DFII, and JKII, but I think if I wanted to hear the original, I would play the original. The graphics are only half of the experience and without the music and sounds of what is able to use today, I think the game is lacking and is a waste of time trying to incorporate the old sound effects into the MOD. Again, it is a great re-creation, and I was in love with the demo and can't wait for the final release, but please consider this in your continuation of designing the game.

[Ravensroke]

Only one thing was missing:

 

When you open the security door (you know, with the red border) the lift has gotta lower and there absolutely has to be! HAS TO BE!!! A naval trooper there.

 

I always enjoyed nailing that SOB to the wall.

 

Otherwise, GREAT JOB!!!!

 

Felt like I was back at 10 years old, playing my first First Person Shooter.

[Jeff 42]

I think the demo is great, but I was getting lots of framerate problems when I played it. This is strange, because I never had any framerate problems in any regular JO levels except for yavin_swamp.

[Emon]

The level of detail you should aim for should be above JO SP's. Proper use of caulk (caulk all non-seen surfaces), areaportals, cut down on overlapping brushes, and using Q3Map2's meta and patchmeta will help increase performance.

 

If I want to play DF with DF graphics, I'll just play DF. But if I want to play DF with high-res, detailed levels, I will play the DF TC for JO. Otherwise I might as well just go with the original.

[RichyBoy]

Originally posted by Darth_Linux

 

this would create incongrous music - a game full of MIDI music and a fully symphonic intro would be like having a rusty hubcap on one wheel and 3 24"s on the rest of the Denali - it would be completely out of place and character . . .

 

But that's the problem at the moment IMHO - the Star Wars theme MIDI isn't up to par with the rest of the MIDI in the mod. All the other tracks sound vastly better than the originals, but the SW theme sounds exactly the same as it did back when I originally played Dark Forces seven years ago. I don't know what you used to playback the original MIDI when you converted it to MP3 for the mod, but I think that even if you used soudfonts instead of general MIDI the opening would still sound bad because that old sequencing by Lucasarts really isn't very good - if you analysed it layer by layer it bears only a superficial resemblance to Herb Spencer's original orchestration. The main theme needs resequencing from scratch and then needs to be played back using a Creative card with some good soundfonts instead of old general MIDI.

 

As far as I can tell, the whole purpose for this MOD is to update Dark Forces to modern standards while still maintaing a certain air of nostalgia. But that nostalgia should come from the fact that fans know they are playing a modern update of an old game, i.e. the nostalgia is inherent in the mod because of what it is based on, and there should be no need to leave certain things unchanged just to provide that retro feel. It thefore feels ludicrous to update the graphics to contemporary standards while the music of the game is left floundering in it's original MIDI form. I'm sure if the technology and the trends had been there Lucasarts would have used orchestral tracks for the music rather than MIDI, so why not use it now while you are updating and improving the rest of the game? However, I understand you have a very good reason for wanting to use the MIDI: you want the music to be the same as that used in Dark Forces, and bar the main theme none of the tracks used in the game were MIDI conversions of existing orchestral material - they were new compositions that are only available in MIDI form. There is however, another way....

 

MIDI music has moved on a lot since the mid-90's, with Creative labs introducing a technology called soundfonts. These soundfonts are essentially individual MIDI sounds that are much more faithful representations of the way individual orchestral instruments sound than general MIDI ever was. You can compile these individual soudfonts into libraries and use them in exactly the same way you would use a standard general midi waveset, but they sound MUCH better, and with careful arranging of the music you can end up with something that sounds close to a real orchestra. I don't know exactly what you used to playback the in-game tracks, but those actually sound OK as they are. Even in comparison to those though, the opening SW theme sounds outdated and crappy - essentially because it sounds no different than it did all those years ago on my GM card at the time. It needs resequencing and then to be played back using soundfonts to sound good. If you can do the same with the in-game tracks, so much the better.

 

As far as I can see, following the purpose of your mod MIDI should only be used for the purposes of keeping the music faithful to that in the original game (i.e. no orchestral tracks are available of the orginal music). It should not however be used simply because the old crappy warbly sounds provide a kitsch feeling of nostalgia, because using traditional MIDI simply feels wrong when it is heard alongside modern visuals. The half-hearted recent Lucasarts remakes of X-Wing and Tie-Fighter in a collector series package proved that, and were criticised as a result. MIDI has moved on a great deal since the mid-90's and you should reflect that in your mod as you have already done with the graphics. To use your own car analogy in relation to the mod as a whole, using retro MIDI techniques alongside modern cutting edge visuals makes the MIDI the rusty hubcap on the Denali. You have gone to the effort of redoing the opening title crawl and cutscenes in addition to the game graphics. It's even been mentioned in another thread that the final MOD will have full EAX 3D sound. So why should the music be the only thing to remain unchanged when the technology is there to bring it up to modern standards while retaining the same essential score as used in the original game?

 

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm having a go - that's not my intention at all. I think that all the work you guys have done so far is simply the best and deserves a great amount of recognition and acclaim from SW gaming fans. I just want the mod to live up to it's full potential.

[Geoffrey S]

True, the ingame music was fine; it was just the Star Wars theme at the start which didn't sound up to par.

Some other stuff which would be nice to see improved:

-The elevator after the key door has a strange glitch; the wall opposite the player has flickering black lines halfway up. I don't know what caused this, it could be overlapping brushes.

-The opening cutscene's planet looked a little cartoonish, but not too bad. What you should definitely improve would be The Crow flying past. It flew by fine, but when it was still medium-sized it suddenly disappeared. Looked very strange.

-What Emon said. Did you caulk all non-visible walls? The framerate was very inconsistent on my computer, whereas it ran the original JO just fine.

[MilesTeg]

Originally posted by Emon

Proper use of caulk (caulk all non-seen surfaces), areaportals, cut down on overlapping brushes, and using Q3Map2's meta and patchmeta will help increase performance.

 

caulk: the complete level (except some of the newest details, is caulked.

 

areaportals: whereever possible I used them.

I even used hint brushes and they work just fine.

 

cutting down the overlapping brushes: ok, you got me It´s not THAT perfect....

 

using q3map2: no. We wanted to use q3map2 in the demo but as long as it doesn´t support lightstyles for light entities....

I´m sure if Ydnar adds this feature we will use q3map2 for all levels.

 

I compiled it with sof2map / "-light -patchshadows -extra". I know that´s not the best solution but it´s enough for a proper demo.

 

It´s the nature of the levels architecture that makes it slower on some machines. The searchlight also sucks up much performance. I will consider one or two "dirty" little tricks (adding doors + areaportals where you can´t see them) that will increase performance.

 

btw:

try the following with "notarget" cheat:

- the searchlight calls more guards to the front of the base when you got catched... It just doesn´t make a noise yet

- there are two guards outside who already patrol around the base (they just notice the player too fast and give up their patrol)

 

@all: thx for your feedback. Be sure I read and go on reading all postings and think about ways to include your ideas.

[Padawannabe]

Man, talk about a trip down memory lane, this is so great, I've been wanting to play Dark Forces again for some time now, but for some reason I can't play it in XP or Me, well at least not with sound.

I defintely think you should stick with the midi, Clint Bajakian did such a great job back then. If you want them to sound even more orchestral, you should try running them through samplers like GigaStudio.

[Katarn07]

I replayed the demo to show to my little neighbor. I for the first time noticed the moving clouds while staring at the Crow. Are those in JO's levels?

Looked really neat!

[MilesTeg]

the moving clouds: I think it´s a premiere. I can´t think of any level in JO (usemade or official) that has such a feature... (well except those clouds below the bespin level - but that´s not a shader... )

[VadWalker]

i had a big list writen down but it said i had to many smiles AND I LOST IT!!!! :ball: :ball:

[VadWalker]

But luckly i remeberd the more important ones!

 

1) The Imperial Blaster it needs to be fater and shorter to look more DF like

 

2) How can i get the changed skins in muilti player? (is it like the good old /model reborn/boss) if so can i get a list off of you?

 

3) I could only find 1 secret area(man ive lost my DF touch AHHHH!)

 

4) If you DO want to wip out the trusty old light saber. All you have to do is put in give all (or give lightsaber) pick it and if it looks odd (in left hand is what happend to me) go though every one of your guns and go back to saber and that did the trick for me.

 

5) thre would have been 10 but I lost alot in transfer from memory to keyboard

 

i tryed it on hard and thats exactly what happend i felt like han solo on the first death star

[Katarn07]

In the last secret area (the armory with the revolving door), there should be glass seperating those items.

[Lundquist]

Hello! Just wanted to praise the team for job VERY well done. For some reason the old Star Wars games were the ones with the best "Stars Wars feel" imo, and you've kept the feel in this mod!

Oh, and I love that Death Star hologram:)

[michael_collins]

My main ideas come from a purely asthesical point of view for the Emperor's room in the secbase. (perhaps take these into consideration on Coruscant also?)

 

Water

Marble

Plants

Red drapes/curtains/etc....anything that suggests imperial superority.

 

Lets face it, the new order while very clinical and stainless steelish is also incredibly decedant, as much as any Hutt crime lords palace, anything that has Palpatine's face on it deserves to be fleshed out with drapes/plants/fountains/marble busts etc.

 

Jus an idea, god only knows what kinda response itll get but when you think of it from the perspective of Coruscant in X-wing 2, Wedges Gamble, the Imp. palace is like something from pre-1917 russia.

 

[Slamraptor]

Plz don't ad any Details in this Level it is perfect like it is!!!!!!!!!! Just for a moment i was thinking that im playin DF!!!!!!!! This level is so perfect Nice Guys REEEEAAALLLLYYYY NICE

[KMan]

Originally posted by Slamraptor

Plz don't ad any Details in this Level it is perfect like it is!!!!!!!!!! Just for a moment i was thinking that im playin DF!!!!!!!! This level is so perfect Nice Guys REEEEAAALLLLYYYY NICE

 

I agree. God forbid that anyone should actually think about what they are doing and use their own creative license.

[IS_Raptor3k]

I hope "They will completely restore, enhance, and add to this game to creat Dark Forces SP!"

ok i used the old Star Wars specal edition comercial but still, you guys need to add detail, lots, bring DF into the 21st centruy!

[arokh]

I just wanted to add my two cents. First of all, you guys have done a great job of recreating the original game. I like everything as it is; you don't want too much detail as it takes away the nostalgic feeling of playing it. Sure, it looks much better than the blocky original but going overboard and making everything look on par with JO would be too much. The music is fine as it is too.

 

I haven't been able to play the original DF as I no longer have the CD and the demo does not work on Win2K so I guess the full version won't too. I'm looking forward to seeing this mod completed.

[Emon]

arokh, for DF to work on Win 2K, you need an emulator for DOS sound. Check out VDMSound.

[arokh]

Ill check that out, thanks

[Geoffrey S]

You may want to try this article. It explains how to get DF running on newer systems.