Snipers

[Admiral Vostok]

Well if IWMs and SFs have no cloaking device, I have no problem with them. I don't see how they would work without one though. But an IWM needs to be slow, not speedy. It's too unblananced in terms of gameplay to have something that gives both speed and invisibility to units who otherwise don't have them.

 

Instead of using cloaking devices, I quite like Dagobahn Eagle's idea of Stealth. Basically units aren't invisible per se, but the have a stealth rating. The higher their stealth rating the closer you have to be to them to detect them. This makes for some good strategy involved when infiltrating. You'll need to sneak past defences at a certain point to avoid being seen. I think you would probably have some sort of effect like in StarCraft where you could see the shimmer from invisible units if you looked hard enough, but your units couldn't target them unless you get a spotter (a detector in StarCraft but just someone to walk close enough in this game) to spot them. It would only really be relevant for Troopers and maybe some air. The different civs would have varying stealth (Rebels get the best as they are guerillas, Clones and Stormtroopers get the worst as they wear bright white and want to be seen).

 

If this is introduced, here's some suggestions for Jedi:

They have the best stealth of any unit, you have to be almost next to them to see them. Maybe one square away.

Force Push: Pushes all troop-sized and small mech units in a radius back and immobilises them for a second or so while they climb back to their feet.

Mind Trick: Target an enemy unit. That unit can not spot stealthy Jedi, no matter how close they are (can not be used on buildings and only wears off when the enemy unit is attacked).

Conversion: Enemy unit is turned to your side.

Light-Side Force Power: Force Sight: Reveals a part of the map for a few seconds (similar to StarCraft's commsweep).

Dark-Side Force Power: Lightning: Sith gets a powerful ranged attack.

These would have to be "researched", except for the stealth one.

[CorranSec]

I've said it many times before. The IWMs and SFs could be sensor-reflecting, shield their emissions, have light-absorbing armour, or whatever. It's mere semantics. Gameplay>Realism.

The IWM is useless with slow speed. It's meant to be a quick method of getting troopers/jedi through something they want to avoid without being detected. With slow speed, they might as well take the time to build up an army and destroy the obstruction (whatever it might be).

I really dislike DE's stealth idea. It's basically immersing stealth into the game- every single unit has stealth, infiltration is important... everything!! This isn't what we want. SW is not primarily about infiltration and hiding. Most battles are all-out warfare.

However, I would support different detectors being able to see different units.

 

Why do Jedi have to have stealth? Jedi aren't really all that stealthy! Jedi can sometimes use the force to divert attention from them, but a trained guerilla trooper or sensor-shielded spy fighter is far stealthier than they are. Even if Mind Trick magically affected every single person in the Jedi's LOS, it definitely shouldn't be active all the time!

Here's the way I see it:

Padawans are available early in the game. They're okay in battle (mainly against troopers), but their real power comes when they are upgraded to Knights.

Knights are the battlers, the warriors, the ones that can be part of your army. You can build them in masses, although it's expensive. Jedi Knights have Force Push, which can throw a group of enemies back and stun them for a short time. Dark Jedi Knights have Force Grip, which can lift one enemy into the air and toss him in any direction desired- perhaps into his comrades?

All Masters are elites, and thus can't be massed. They're remarkably expensive and might have some kind of 'pop cap.'

Jedi Masters are expert infiltrators, with their Mind Trick diverting the attention of guards long enough for them to slip around them and do what needs to be done. Their Force Healing can heal themselvesor others, although they must slip into a trance. They are more powerful in battle than the average Knight, but tire easier.

Dark Jedi Masters are cruel masters of the forces of darkness. They are deadly adversaries in battle, with access to Sith Lightning, which can shock whole groups of enemy forces to death. They can also twist the minds of their enemies to the will of the dark side.

[Sithmaster_821]

Do we all know how to use bullets, or do you guys just like the way the simlies look?

 

Jedi should be the only ones with stealth. They're never meant to openly attack, but to sneak around and sabotage. Watch the movies. Every single one had a Jedi sabotaging behind enemy lines, and most of the time they were solo or with a small group.

 

Concerning "force powers". They're use as "spells" like in WC and SC would dramatically affect they way people use them. They would not only be used primarily in open combat, their presence would decide the outcome of the battle. In WC3, battles are decided not by upgrades or by numbers but by who ever has the best hero. Same with SC. Battles are usually decided by who casts the right spell at the right time. I think that foce poweres should either not be included, or be executed like MU's special attacks in AoM.

[CorranSec]

I just like the smilies. C'mon, let me have a little fun.

 

When they have to, Jedi hack people up with sabers. Masters are stealthy, and that reflects the stealth of the masters in the movies (eg. Obi-Wan sabotaging the tractor beam). Masters are also soloers, or travel in very small groups.

 

Well, the stealthy ones wouldn't be used in open combat, but the others are designed to be used in open combat. They wouldn't affect the outcome of the battle, however.

The Knight powers are fun things that are generally used for dealing with a couple of troopers. The Jedi Master powers are for infiltration and healing of friendly units during a break in the battle. The Sith Master powers are quite good, but Sith Masters are very expensive. It'll be balanced.

All Force users will be expensive, and use of a special power will drain quite a lot of Force power (mana). Do not assume they'll immediately turn out like the heroes in WC3.

 

The special attacks of MU's would be a lot more fun if you could choose when to use them, and who on, rather than the units executing them by themselves. Do you have something against fun and micromanagement? Do you have a pessimistic complex, or something that makes you assume everything that will be unbalanced?

[Admiral Vostok]

Well the smily I use matches my avatar, so I use it instead of bullets because it looks cool.

 

I agree that Jedis should be the only ones with full-on stealth. A guerilla trooper is not more stealthy than a Jedi, and spy fighters don't exist.

 

I don't think Force powers should be as powerful as spells in WC3. The ones I suggested won't win a battle.

 

Force push helps a Jedi escape, or get closer to the enemy without much blasting. On second thoughts it should be a targetted spell that has a small area effect rather than a radius effect. If you can Force push over an entire army you would have enough Jedi to have beaten them already.

 

Mind trick well help you get past detectors, but if you try to attack them it is no good.

 

Conversion exists already.

 

Force sight is good for scouting, but by the time you can research it you've probably scoutted most of the map already.

 

Lightning just gives Sith a range attack, which wouldn't be huge, but gives an advantage none the less.

 

Note that all powers except lightning require Force power to use just like conversion does at the moment. It would operate the same way in that the powers don't cost a specific amount, but you use 100% of your power performing a power and have to wait until you're back at 100% before doing another one. This way you can't do heaps of Force powers straight after each other.

[CorranSec]

A guerilla trooper is silent, wears clothing that blends in with what's around him, and can sneak up and ambush enemies. A spy fighter.... I've been over this, and they do exist. A sniper can take out troopers from a distance and remain undetected.

A Jedi? From what we've seen, Masters use stealth (in the form of Mind Trick distractions) to fulfil infiltration missions. I've reflected this. Knights are battlers, so they shouldn't be stealths.

 

My force powers aren't as powerful as spells in WC3, and mine won't turn the tide of a major battle either (except when used in large numbers, like anything in an RTS).

 

Force push may help Jedi escape, but it definitely doesn't get them closer (you're pushing the enemies away)! Force push knocks down enemies so that the Jedi can dispatch them easily or turn his/her attention to other things. I always wanted it as a targeted spell, generally best used on troopers- target it on a particular unit, and the Jedi will push in that direction. Things in the way get pushed (to a certain degree).

 

My mind trick does the same, except you can attack non-detectors (but you generally wouldn't want to).

 

Most things 'exist already.' Conversion is better suited to the Dark Jedi Masters, rather than being a leftover from AoE available to every Jedi (reducing uniqueness). Jedi Masters already have Mind Trick and Healing, so...

 

Then why include Force sight at all? Why have it instead of my powers?

 

Mine does the same, except it's targeted and jumps- normal Dark Jedi Master attack is with a lightsaber.

 

I would hope that the Force power bar is improved sizeably from the AoE 'faith' leftover. Why not have numbers, and each power costs a certain amount of power? This makes sense, as many powers differ in their.... well, their power, and having Push regenerate just as slowly as Lightning (or take the same amount of Force) just doesn't make sense.

[Admiral Vostok]

I meant it helps the Jedi get closer because after they are pushed the enemy is immobilised for a bit, allowing the Jedi to run up and slice them. That's what Force push was good for in JO.

 

How does your idea of Jedi stealth work? I'm not sure how your mind trick works in relation to it.

 

I suppose you could give conversion only to masters. But it would seem much more powerful than the Force push and Mind Trick. It depends how you do it. But I think conversion is a good addition to gameplay. It doesn't matter that it's left over from AoK because it fits Star Wars.

 

I was just thinking of Force Sight as an alternate to Lightning. You're suggesting healing. Would this mean we get rid of medics? If so I like it, as the medics we see in Star Wars aren't field medics they sit at home in the bases.

 

Yes, lightning that jumps is a better idea. I was thinking of replacing the lightsaber attack but your idea is better.

 

I think maybe Masters are able to do all these Force Powers, but don't have as good an attack as Knights. Knights can only do some powers (push for light and choke for dark, or something) but have a really great attack. This would mean taking both Knights and Masters has advantages, because at the moment I tend to find as soon as Masters are available they're much better to buy than Knights.

 

You'd have to structure the mana/Force and Force power costs in a way that it wasn't possible to do several powers one after the other. Maybe you can only use powers when at 100, so you can cast a power sooner after Force Push (maybe 25 Force cost) than you can after Conversion (maybe 100 cost), but you can't do four pushes in a row.

[lukeiamyourdad]

I may sound like an idiot or simply I'm too lazy to read all that Corran and Vostok have been rambling about but can someone get me back on the topic at hand? I just don't know what we're talking about.

[Admiral Vostok]

Evolution of the Snipers thread (for Luke's Dad and anyone else who wishes to join the conversation but is too daunted by Corran's and my excessive posts):

 

How could snipers work in SWGB2 -> Would cloaking them be overpowered -> cloaking of other units such as an Infiltration War Machine (IWM) and a Spy Fighter (SF) -> How an IWM and a SF don't fit into Star Wars -> other special abilities like cloaking -> Jedi special abilites -> how could Jedi work in SWGB2

 

There were side-tracks along the way but that's basically the important bits. It's actually quite a logical evolution unlike other threads, and it even stayed on the original topic for like 4 pages or something.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Just to say, how would force push be useful?

[Darth Windu]

*sigh* why must people fail to understand such a basic concept...

 

Corran - GROUND>AIR. It has always been, and will always be, the case. As it is plainly obvious you know nothing about the military in either equipment or tactics, you cannot say that 'air=ground' - there is absolutely nothing that exists to back up this ridiculous claim.

 

For example, if air=ground, why were the Empire's AT-AT's, AT-ST's and snowtroopers able to defeat the Rebels on Hoth?

 

Also, why do the Rebels continue to use ground troops if air is so much greater?

 

The simple fact is that you cannot control a piece of land without a solider on it, and there are many, many things that aircraft just cant do.

[CorranSec]

Vostok:

Okay, but Push could also be used to knock enemies off bridges (that was fun in JO) and to push enemies into other enemies, knocking them all off balance. Then, you can get closer, or do something else (eg run away).

 

Mind trick is my version of "jedi stealth." I've explained how mind trick works, but I'll do it again if you ask nicely.

 

That's just what I was thinking, and it seems to make more sense with the Sith (the whole twisting people to the dark side thing). It's meant to be more powerful than Force Push (Push is just a Knight power), but Mind Trick is quite powerful (it's good to be invisible!).

 

I think Sight would be overpowered (or worse, underpowered), and couldn't really replace Lightning as a Sith Master power. However, Healing shouldn't become your typical source of health restoration. It's generally used for the Master to restore his own health after a battle, or during a lull in the battle (like Qui-Gon meditating in between the beams).

 

Cool. I think the lightning would look great and work even better.

 

No way! If masters had all of these powers, they'd be overpowered and Knights would be underpowered. Once again, the Knights are the armies and the battlers, with some powers, and the Masters are elite, powerful (so they do have a better attack), but few in number.

 

Yeah, you wouldn't want Push after Push after Push. I was thinking of an actual recharge time for the power as well as your normal mana- for example, a Dark Knight can't Grip, then immediately Grip again, but a Jedi Master can use Mind Trick and then use Healing (if they have enough Force power).

 

Luke's dad: Push would effectively deal with a group of small units (5-7 troopers, I'm thinking) for a period of time, enabling the Jedi to kill them without suffering damage or turn his/her attention to another threat. And, of course, it's fun.

 

Windu:

Air>Ground, but in the interests of a fun and balanced game, Air=Ground.

I may not know very much about modern military tactics (even though I study modern history and have a friend who knows everything there is to know about air forces), but I know Star Wars units, military and tactics, which is what we're talking about, and SW supports my claims.

The Rebels had a squadron of snowspeeders. The Empire had 7 AT-ATs and countless snowtroopers. A little unbalanced, don't you think?

The Rebels use ground troops because they're more effective at guerilla fighting, are inexpensive and available in large numbers. They're also able to work within a fixed base (you can't exactly fly an X-Wing around the corridors of Echo Base killing snowtroopers).

You can control a piece of land without a soldier on it, and any stormtrooper on a piece of land will die to an X-Wing. However, you cannot control a piece of air or space without an aircraft, and there's a lot more of that than there is land, especially in SW.

There are many, many things that ground units cannot do- such as flying. Can a ground unit go anywhere in the open? No. Can a ground unit attack a capital ship in space, or even a capital ship high in the air? No.

[jedimidget99]

The shield generator on hoth was a planetary shield, not a surface shield. Therefore, the transports were able to pass through while the turbolaser blasts from the orbiting star destroyers couldn't penetrate the shield.

[lukeiamyourdad]

SWGB is a grond based RTS like it or not. Live with it.

 

The Jedi starts to sound like a bunch of WC3's heroes....

[Sithmaster_821]

Air>Ground

Confused you are, young Jedi

[swphreak]

Confused I am. . . .

[CorranSec]

Luke's dad: I've been through this before. Ground-based doesn't mean we can't have more air units!

 

The Jedi are quite different to WC3's heroes. WC3 heroes are resurrectable, amazingly powerful and could decide the fate of any battle. Knights are normal battlers with some special powers, and Masters are an elite few with great powers, but not enough to play the key role in any major battle.

In fact, they're probably a lot more like AoM's myth units. Especially in the case of the Knights.

[Admiral Vostok]

Jedimidget - That's what I was trying to say to Corran.

 

Corran - Having also gotten hold of a copy of WC3 as well as AoM over the weekend, I think the way WC3 heroes have a recharge time for their skills would suit Force Powers well. But Jedi will be far less powerful than WC3 Heroes.

 

One thing I was thinking though - it might be better to take an AoM approach to special powers and have the Jedi automatically perform their powers. For example, when they first run into combat they use their Force Push or Force Lightning. This is automatic, you don't have to specifically click them to make it happen. Then they fight for a bit while their ckill recharges, then as soon as they can they perform the trick again.

 

I quite like that approach, it works well in AoM. With that in mind I propose the following:

 

Jedi Padawans and Sith Apprentices have no Force Powers.

 

Jedi Knights have automatic Force Push (pushes a number of units away from the Jedi and does a small amount of damage to them).

 

Sith Knights have automatic Force Choke (one trooper-sized unit in range is strangled to death after a short time period).

 

Jedi Masters have automatic Force Push and targetable Mind Trick (targetted unit cannot target any enemy units until attacked).

 

Sith Masters have automatic Force Choke and targetable Force Lightning (targetted unit is attacked at range and the lightning jumps in chains to other enemies).

 

They may seem a little unbalanced but this would be remedied in their recharge rate. In fact, I'd like to do away with mana and just have the recharge rates for the individual powers. And I know I've missed out Conversion, I think either both should get it or neither.

[CorranSec]

Oh, please no. Automatic use takes away from all the fun, and also detracts from the fact that they're special powers. Now, the Jedi aren't anything all that special- their 'force powers' are just another stat that you have absolutely no control over.

Goodbye to the hope of having some real fun- picking up a Gungan, letting him choke for a bit, and then tossing him down a ravine... or pushing a Trade Fed droid into another bunch of droids, knocking them all down. Nope... just another part of the unit, like the myth units in AoM.

Uncontrollable special abilities aren't special and aren't fun. AoM's myth units would have been a lot better with the abilities to fire a spike volley, or gore a human, or pick up someone and throw them at a building.

 

What happened to all the great powers we'd agreed on?

Jedi Knight have push- fine implementation, but controllable.

Dark Jedi Knight choke- call it 'grip,' and implement it the way I described. Yours is rather pointless- the Sith would be better off simply slashing the enemy. Mine is more fun and more effective.

Jedi Master push- Um, no. Any repeated ability is a bad idea, and healing would both fit in more with the Master and be more balanced.

Jedi Master mind trick- No way. Once again, a fairly pointless implementation which is much more effective (and better represented) with my stealth idea.

Dark Jedi Master choke- See above about Jedi Master push.

Dark Jedi Master lightning- Good. There's one thing you've done correctly. It's a start.....

Conversion- It has to be in there somewhere, the Jedi Master already has suitable and balanced powers, and it just fits the Dark Jedi Master to a T.

[OOM-9(2)]

Christ! What made this thread so attractive? And how did it get so far off-topic ?

 

[swphreak]

the power of the OTDC is mighty. . .

[lukeiamyourdad]

We are the mightiest!!!!!!!

 

About Dark Jedi Master Lightning- i think it's a little overpowered. If it attacks more then one units it just might be overpowered unless it's only effective vs trooper type units...

[Admiral Vostok]

Well Corran you're right about the auto-casting. But perhaps you could turn auto-casting on like in WC3, so you don't have to worry about it in a huge battle, the Jedi's do it themselves.

 

Your Force Grip sounds fun, but isn't it essentially the same as Force Push? Besides Force Grip was never used to carry people around or to throw them in the movies, it was supposed to be for choking people. The advantage with my way is you can do it from range. It would be quicker than sabering faster units who run away.

 

How does your mind trick work again? I can't find it in my brief pperusal of the posts and I couldn't be bothered to read them in detail again when you can just copy-paste it.

 

I don't see how having Mind Trick and Healing is equal to Lightning and Conversion, unless you give the latter two large recharge times. Even so, I'd rather have conversion than both the other two. It really isn't balanced, so you'd have to pay more for a Sith Master, which I don't think you should do.

[CorranSec]

Luke's dad: The ability to attack more than one unit at the time doesn't necessarily make it overpowered. It would probably function more like Thrall's Chain Lightning from WC3 (most damage to first unit, then less to second, and so on) than Adi Gallia's Force Lightning in JS (which is more like what you're thinking of..... it can kill 5 enemy fighters in one zap)

 

And yes, we are the mightiest.

 

Vostok: Yeah, I was thinking about a WC3-ish autocast function. Okay, let's include that.

 

Force grip is a lot different to force push. Think of Jedi Outcast- you pick one guy up, and you can slam him into walls/comrades, drop him off cliffs/onto friends, and so on. You right-click on the guy, he gets lifted into the air, and you right-click a location..... he gets dropped there.

With force push, you target it in a direction, like in The Phantom Menace on the PS1. Units that Push hits get.... pushed. It's probably best used against troopers, just like Grip.

 

Doing Grip from range would be useless against troopers. Where's the fun in strangling a single trooper when one of these will probably happen:

a) You'll have wasted a power in killing a single enemy

b) You could've killed him with your saber anyway

c) His friends have killed you while you're choking him

 

About the Mind Trick:

Well, there are several ways I was thinking about this. I'm not sure which one I like the most, or is most realistic.

a) You target it at an enemy unit/group of units and they cannot attack/move for a certain amount of time. (Like many movie Jedi infiltrating the minds of the weak-minded: These aren't the droids you're looking for.)

b) You target it at an enemy unit/group of units and they cannot see the master for a certain amount of time. (Like Obi-Wan distracting the stormies with a noise, allowing him to sneak over to the tractor beam: What was that?)

c) The Jedi Master is undetectable for a certain period of time. (A basic full stealthcloak, with no real movie background, but the simplest to implement and balance.)

d) Feel free to think of some of your own. Basically I'm trying to come up with something that will allow Masters to infiltrate enemy bases and keep the spirit of Masters of the movies, without something as basic as a full stealthcloak.

 

Mind Trick makes JMs great at infiltration, and Healing can both heal the Master and some around him far quicker than a medical droid can (I'm planning to have 'medics' in GB2).

Lightning is a pretty great tool of war, but it won't turn the tide of a major battle. Conversion won't be as great as it is currently- no building converts, but instead a simple unit convert which won't be amazingly wonderful, but useful nonetheless (it works a lot faster than the GB conversion, and with 10 DJMs working, you can grab 10 enemy units in as many seconds).

[Admiral Vostok]

I think probable "a" is the best for mind trick, except the unit should still be able to move. Also, you could maybe combine it with "b" to not be able to see you as well. The reason for this is if you just take away attacking your opponent will still see your Jedi running past, which isn't much of an infiltration. They'll send some units after you straight away. However, only mind-tricked units won't be able to see and attack, so if there are some non-mind-tricked-units there you will still be seen, but not attacked by the mind-tricked units.

Example: There are two stormtroopers. You can mind trick one and run past and only the other one will attack you. Also, your opponent will know you've just run past. Alternatively if you have two Masters you can mind trick both (or if you want the mind-trick to have an area effect you would only need one Master) and neither will attack you and your opponent will be unaware you've infiltrated. Also, will it be unable to see/attack all units or just the Jedi who targetted it? I think all units.

 

If only units can be converted (which makes more sense) I suppose it isn't overpowered. I think conversion should take less time depending on how damaged the target is.

 

So let me summarise:

Light Side Powers:

Force Push: Area affect - pushes enemy units away from the Jedi. Affected units take some damage. (How about this in addition: the lighter the unit is the further it goes, so Troopers fly back for ages whereas larger mechs are only pushed a little way).

Force Heal: Target - the Jedi heals a certain amount of damage to organic units. The Jedi can target itself.

Mind Trick: Target - Targetted enemy unit is unable to see or attack your units for a period of time. Wears off if unit is attacked.

Dark Side Powers:

Force Grip: Target - throws a targetted trooper-sized unit in a specified direction. If thrown into other enemy units those enemies will be damaged. The targetted unit dies when it is thrown.

Force Lightning: Target - ranged attack that leaps to nearby enemy units.

Conversion: Target - enemy unit is turned to your side.