SE_Vader_536 Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 sorry i dont mean to be an *** but what exactly is the topic here? i didnt feel like going back and reading the last 8 pages of how the topic ended up whatever it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 I don't know why you're talking about taking away the Mech Destroyer, it really isn't relevant. Mech Destroyer - good vs mechs, not that good vs troopers Strike Mech - good vs troopers not that good vs mechs They both have purposes. Persuasion - good at sneaking into a base, or creating an ambush Distraction - good at sneaking into a base, or creating an ambush Clearly they are much more similar than the Mech Destroyer and Strike Mech are. SE Vader - Current topic is Jedi Powers and their representations in SWGB2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 The Mech Destroyer example is entirely relevant. Mech Destroyer - good vs mechs, not that good vs troopers Strike Mech - good vs troopers not that good vs mechs They both have purposes. Persuasion - good at ambushing moving enemies, or giving your side an advantage in battle- not that good at sneaking into a base Distraction - good at sneaking into a base, not that good at creating an ambush They both have purposes. How would distraction be good at ambushing? It makes only the Jedi Master undetectable to a small group of people. All the fellow ambushers (and it's really not an ambush without other people) would be screwed up. It might be helpful for the lone JM to kill a couple of troopers or such, but he'd be able to kill them anyway, without the use of powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 Add this thread to the list of pointless debates... It's almost if we're arguing about the name of a JM power!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 Corran, combining them into one power makes sense: Multi-purpose things are encouraged in RTS so interesting strategies can be performed. Example: Forest Fire God Power in AoM: You can use it to hurt enemy buildings near a forest, or to deprive the enemy of resources, or to remove a forest from your path. Jedi Mind Trick is universally recognised as a singular power, which is why it has only one name. The Sith have three very different powers, so if for no other reason than neatness the Jedi should also have three very different powers. It is entirely possible to combine the two so both infiltration and ambushes are possible. If you don't believe me read the discussion a few pages back where we'd come to an agreement before Persuasion and Distraction were even introduced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Multi-purpose things are all fine and jolly, and they do make for some interesting tactics. But there are some things that I need to point out. Forest Fire is multi-purpose, yes- you can use it to put a hole in the enemy's defenses, or deny them resources. However, it's not that good at killing units next to it- it doesn't do that much damage, and it's easy to move your units away. Thus, Distraction is good at sneaking away, or sneaking into bases, but it's not that good at killing units. Jedi Mind Trick isn't really 'recognised' by anyone other than gamers, and they know better than to apply what they see to Star Wars in general. The movies don't really define it either- we know the Jedi can use the Force in those kinds of ways, but Jabba says the words 'Jedi mind tricks,' which shows that the Jedi have a variety of mind-twisting powers. Persuasion and Distraction are different. This is not possible. It will be confusing, and turn out either useless or overpowered. Should an AA turret also have laser turret weapons? Should an Assault Mech have the speed and HP of a Strike Mech? Should Distraction have the ambushing power of Persuasion? The answer is the same for all of them, and I'll trust you to figure out what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Jedi Mind Trick isn't really 'recognised' by anyone other than gamers ... The movies don't really define it either Wrong. It is explicitely named by Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jabba the Hutt, Watto and Padme Amidala in the movies. It is also used in several other instances without being named, but still recognised by the familiar wave of the hand. Jabba says the words 'Jedi mind tricks,' which shows that the Jedi have a variety of mind-twisting powers. Wrong again. The quote you're thinking of is "You weak-minded fool! He's using an old Jedi Mind Trick!" There is nowhere in the movies it is refered to as being plural. Persuasion and Distraction are different. I know. I'm suggesting we combine them in the interests of reality and gameplay. Should an AA turret also have laser turret weapons? - No, but not relevant to the argument. Should an Assault Mech have the speed and HP of a Strike Mech? - No, but again not relevant to the argument. Should Distraction have the ambushing power of Persuasion? - Yes, because they will cease to be "Distraction" and "Persuasion" and just become Jedi Mind Trick. We are not duplicating the power or abilities of another concept here, we are combining the two into one. It can and shall be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Explicitly named? I doubt it. And it's definitely not capitalized. The characters are referring to the Jedi using a trick of the mind (because they have many mind-related powers), not a specific Jedi Mind Trick. Jedi powers don't actually fall into specific categories, they're just made that way for games. I thought it was "Your Jedi mind tricks don't work on me." Oh, wait, wasn't that Watto? Ah! You admit that they are different! Should an AA turret also have laser turret weapons? - No. They're different. You could say 'they'll just become one Uber-Turret,' but that would be foolish. Should an Assault Mech have the speed and HP of a Strike Mech? - No. They're different. You could say 'they'll just become one Uber-Mech,' but that would be foolish. Should Distraction have the ambushing power of Persuasion? - No. You could just say 'they will become one Mind Trick,' but that would be foolish. All those examples are linked, in that they all involve two quite different things which could possibly be combined into one, but with disastrous results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Watto: "Mind Tricks don't work on me, only money." This is a plural because it is incorrect to say "Mind Trick don't work on me, only money." Jabba: "Your mind powers will not work on me, boy" This is plural for the same reason. Stop fooling yourself that there is more than one kind of mind trick. There is nothing whatsoever to support this claim, and plenty to refute it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joesdomain Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 I personally don't really care about sniping ability or snipers in a star wars game. I buy this game because it is Star Wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Watto: "Mind tricks don't work on me, only money." It is not capitalised. Please don't imagine that GL wrote it that way in the script. And it could easily have been spoken like this: "Jedi Mind Trick doesn't work on me, only monkey." (er, money. I have a habit of writing monkey. Sorry.) "Your mind powers will not work on me, boy" This shows that Jedi have a variety of mind-influencing powers. Of course, he could have just meant the Force powers in general, seeing as they are mind powers. But once again, it could have been stated like this: "Your Jedi Mind Trick will not work on me, boy." There have never been any clear definitions of Jedi powers- eg. Push, Pull, Persuasion- apart from in games, which have freedom of expression, artistic licence, gameplay>realism and so on. As such, let us use those concepts to give us some powers that are fun to use, which are still within the vague limitations set by the movies. You must admit that the powers are different and good to use independently in gameplay>realism terms- the ones that matter. Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 I checked my copies of the scripts, and you are right they are not capitalised. That sill doesn't mean it isn't the name of the force power. You are also right that force powers are not specified (pull, push, etc) EXCEPT when it comes to the mind trick. Everyone knows what a Jedi mind trick is. You ask anyone who even remotely knows Star Wars and they will tell you. They will definitely NOT ask "what type of mind trick?" You're fooling yourself if you think they do. They could work as separate powers, but it would be far better if they were combined. It just makes sense. If it is represented as a single power in everything else, why start doing things differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 If it was the name of the Force power, it would be capitalised, and it would be singular. However, Lucas never made force powers as specifics (eg Push, Pull, etc). The Force is an energy which allows people to do things. For the purpose of good gameplay in video games (which have freedom of expression, artistic licence, gameplay>realism and so on) they have been given specific labels and effects. Everyone familiar with Star Wars knows that the Jedi can influence people's minds with mind powers/tricks. If you asked someone "what is a Jedi mind trick," they'd probably say something like "It's something Jedi do where they play with people's minds." But it's carefully undefined, and covers a number of things. It could be making a weak-minded stormtrooper not seearch your landspeeder, or distracting guards so you can sabotage a tractor beam, or implanting a feeling into someone's mind. It's impossible to express all of these in a game as one singular power, and none of them would be really all that great in an RTS (they're better suited for things like 1PSs, like JO), but I came up with some force powers which are linked to things in the movies and are good for gameplay. Ah, so you admit that they could work as separate powers! Your only argument now is that "it's represented as a single power in everything else". Seeing as this is untrue, and even if it was true it would be a victim of realism>gameplay thinking, I daresay this debate is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Fair enough, that is a decent argument. However, the main reason I think they should be combined is for gameplay purposes. You argue that combining different things into one is not a good idea, and you use the example of combining strike mech and mech destroyer. I don't think that's the right point of view to take, instead look at it this way: You want "jedi mind tricks" to be split into two powers, which are used for slightly different things. Wouldn't this be like having a single mech and splitting it's attack, so that you can chose whether it shoots troopers better or mechs better? I think having two different powers makes things too easy. You're in one situation, you do this, you're in another, you do this. You should have to use the one power for different purposes, which is harder to do, rather than having separate powers good at their own thing, where you know straight away what to do. So you'd be in one situation and say "how can I use my power to the best of it's ability in this situation?" This is Gamplay>Realism thinking, though unlike some of your Gameplay ideas it is not unrealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 Okay, now we're onto gameplay. A proper arena at last..... I want two separate powers, with two separate effects, good at separate things. Don't think "Jedi mind tricks"- we've been over this. They are separate powers, just as the Mech Destroyer and the Strike Mech are different mechs. Does this make things too easy? Should we only have a Strike Mech? You can use a Strike Mech to combat an Assault Mech, but I don't think it'll really do all that well. It's not really a case of "how can I use my singular power here." It's more like "Oh, my singular power isn't really good at ambushing. If only I had that other power Corran proposed. That would've been really fun." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted April 6, 2003 Share Posted April 6, 2003 I had a big counter argument written up, but I have deleted it because I just got a cool idea: If only one Jedi Master performs a Jedi mind trick, the target unit cannot see any enemy units for a period of time. Attacking the unit will make the Mind Trick wear off. Alternatively, more than one Jedi Master can Mind Trick a unit. If two or more Jedi Masters Mind Trick a unit, it is distracted as before, but the effect no longer wears off when the target unit is attacked. This simulates the fact that if a Jedi is alone, they'd prefer sneaking around to fighting. If the Jedi is working with a partner (like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan) or in a team (like in the Geonosian Arena) a straight up overwhelming fight is sometimes the best option. This apporach could be taken with some of the other powers we thought might benefit from having multiple levels of effectiveness, like Force Push and Force Grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joesdomain Posted April 6, 2003 Share Posted April 6, 2003 It is shame the micro technology won't be out for a few years to allow Force Push, or Force grip or the other force abilities to be used by Jedi/Sith in an Star wars RTS game today. I know they can do that in Jedi Knight II and Jedi Academy because it uses Quake III engine and it is first person shooter type game. Technology is advancing so fast these days. One day they could make those type of games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted April 6, 2003 Share Posted April 6, 2003 This argument has just taken several mighty steps backwards.... can't you please give it up? And can't you please give a reason why my balanced, fun and effective powers should be ditched for your singular stacking power? The whole idea of 'stacking effects' is something that I think shouldn't be applied to JM's at all. Seeing as you can only have 10 at once (and most people won't get that many), and they're designed for solo operations (what with their stealth powerS and all that), these stacking ideas are just silly. Should you need two JMs to kill a single trooper? Of course not! Looking at it that way, it's quite clear that this idea is ridiculous. All JMs should prefer sneaking around to fighting, but they can go into battle if they desire- for example, they can be powerhouses of destruction in big battles, or the catalyst for an ambush. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan sneaked around quite a lot, and Obi-Wan was just a Padawan (thus only good at open battle). In the Geonosian Arena, all of the JMs remained quite hidden and stealthy and could have easily dealt with plenty of Geonosians quietly. However, an open-battle-suited Jedi Padawan (Anakin) forced them to reveal themselves, and join the open battle. Note that in the same area, Mace Windu undertook a solo infiltration mission (get up to the podium and kill Jango Fett), and nearly succeeded. The fact that he managed to get up there (obviously either killing or tricking many guards along the way) is a tribute to the stealth skillS of any singular JM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joesdomain Posted April 6, 2003 Share Posted April 6, 2003 Back to the snipers issue! When I think of a sniper, I think of a guy using a sniper rife with scope. I just don't think that fits Star Wars RTS games or Star Wars. Maybe a Bounty Hunter might have rifle with a scope. Troopers just don't seem have that ability in Star Wars since they are using lasers guns instead of guns in reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 I think the stacking idea is nice because it hasn't been done in an RTS before, but you don't seem to want to give up your two Mind Tricks idea, so I'll work with that. At the moment we have Distraction (good for stealth) and Persuasion (good for ambushes). As you know, my main problem with them is that they overlap too much - you can use one to do the other, albeit inadequately. So if combining them isn't to your liking, perhaps I'll try separating them more, thereby getting rid of overlap. So first I'll work on the Stealth issue. We need a power that is only good at stealth and no good at ambushes. I'll call it "Conceal" rather than distract. If a Jedi Master uses Conceal, he creates an aura around himself that hides friendly units. The Jedi Master and any friendly units within a radius are invisible, and can not be seen by the enemy at all. However, if any concealed unit attacks, the effect wears off (the cover is blown). The effect also wears off after a period of time, or the Jedi can cancel it at any time. Now for the Ambush issue. We need a power that is perfect at ambushing a powerful unit before it can attack our Jedi and his friends. I'll call it "Confuse" rather than persuade. A Jedi Master targets an enemy unit. That unit has it's LOS reduced to 1, and it cannot move or attack. The effect wears off after a period of time. I hope you like those ideas. I am maintaining the purpose of the old ones without the overlap I dislike so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joesdomain Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 The Jedi abilities weren't really that good in GB1. The Jedi mind tricks were realistic. Being able to trick an enemy and distraction them would be cool. Using other abilities like Force pull, force push, force speed, etc. Would enhance the game and make it more realistic. Since it will be most likely a 3-D game for a sequel, it most likely could be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 The stacking idea hasn't been used for very good reasons..... but you've ditched that. Hooray. Okay, Conceal sounds all right, but I think it should be a 'personal-effect' power, in that it only hides the JM. This is good for infiltrations and the like, done by the solo Jedi. And yes, if the JM attacks, the cover is blown, but it still can do other things, like walk, disable power cores, unlock gates, and so on. I am sorry, Vostok, but this "Confuse" sounds a little crazy. Do you know what an 'ambush' is? Being intelligent as you are, I was assuming you knew something about warfare. An ambush is when a group of people jump out on an often numerically-superior enemy, and use the element of suprise to take them all down quickly. A single unit.... the JM alone could handle probably any single enemy unit, apart from perhaps a Dark Jedi Master, and having a power specifically designed for duels just doesn't impress me. We need a power that is perfect at allowing the Jedi, hopefully along with some allies, to take ambush a group of enemies- that is, take them down swiftly and easily without them knowing. The LOS reduced to 1 is okay, but I think that they still should be able to move and perhaps attack- thus, with a spotter, they can attack the attackers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Okay, you're right, let's work on Confuse. Since Conceal gets your approval (I should add I think Concealed Jedi can attack buildings without losing the conceal ability) and it should be changed to a personal power as you suggested, so let's leave Conceal and say it's done. Now back to Confuse. How about this: reduces LOS and speed of enemies in an area effect. But if attacked by ranged units, will the Confused enemy have the attackers revealed? I think not. Also as you know, another problem I had with two separate powers was that then the Jedi will have more powers than the Sith. Well how about Sith are slightly better in combat to blanace it out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Conceal: Okay, good. But attacking buildings? I think not. It's not designed for that, it's designed for infiltration and doing things to buildings. Not killing them. Confuse: LOS to 1, and speed halved. Attackers aren't revealed from range, but they might see melee attackers (eg a Jedi running around beneath an AT-AT). They still have their attack, armour, range and HP, so if a spotter comes along, the ambushees can strike back. Albeit rather sluggishly. Here's a thought- perhaps not only their moving speed, but their actual attacking speed (time between shots) would be lessened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Conceal: Agreed. Confuse: Agreed. Okay. Now we have nothing to debate. Oh wait, what do you say to my idea of giving Sith a better attack than Jedi because they get less powers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.