Snipers

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Air units should be like they were in GB, except with less armor vs. AA units and more attack. They would survive against each others, but you shouldn't be able to send in 10 TIE Bombers against two AA cannons and level them -and the base- with the ground..

 

AA units should be something you sent in after AA defenses were cleared. Then they would wreak some serious havoc. Like in real life.

 

Low speed shouldn't be a weakness of the sniper: Low armor should be. Believe me, that'll work. They're good at staying hidden and move as fast as troopers, BUT IF they are detected, they're DEAD unless someone come to their rescue.

 

Kind of like the real life SEALs. As long as they're undetected, they can WREAK HAVOC. If detected.. well, then they'll pray.

 

And what's this stuff about the need for "Gameplay>Realism"? For those who think high realism ruins gameplay, play:

 

Gran Turismo,

Gran Turismo 2

Ground Control

 

How many reviewers reviewing GT whined that it was "too realistic"? Name one. They all loved the realism. Ponder that.

 

Special abilities: Bad idea. In Tactical games, they're great as long as they aren't overpowered. In Strategy games, they're in the way. Even more if you can't find a convinient way of enabling them. Look at FC. If you had 10 stormies, you'd have to spend 10 seconds choosing each one and telling it to fire stun bolts... ugh. At least you'd have to have something like a hotkey that made all selected units use their second weapons or equipment.

 

Second: How would abilities recharge? Like in FC? Or do you think they should have a set number of, say, mines, then you'd have to return to the base to reload?

[lukeiamyourdad]

Gran Turismos are simulators.Not the same thing.

 

Ground Control involved only two civs. It's also not the same.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

And the number of civs would be relevant in a realism question because..?

 

Also, you say troops are unimportant in SW because they never used them during the battle of Yavin. What you fail to realise is that they had no choice: There couldn't have been soldiers in space over the Death Star.

 

Now please tell me one battle where there could have been troops where there were no troops. Hoth? 90% ground forces. Endor. Couldn't have happened without Solo's commando team and the Ewoks. Naboo? Heh, think an X-Wing could have landed inside the throne room and forced the TF leader to surrender?

 

Infiltrator: Why does it necessarily have to be slow to have stealth. There are a good deal of other stats to change, like armor or firepower.

 

And yes, I'd rather have 5 sith ride undetected in a cloakable infiltrator than have them walk on foot.

[lukeiamyourdad]

You can't achieve good diversity and balance with too many civs. That also includes realism. Realism and balance are two very close things. You have to balance things out to make the game better, sometimes at the sacrifice of realism.

[Sithmaster_821]

Ummm....

 

What realism was Ground Control based on? Gameplay>Realism only applies to games that are based on something, like SW games and history games.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Realism in GC? Shadows and lighting interfering with gameplay, hiding units.. I didn't mean the plot was based on anything.

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu - Star Wars is BASED on the real world, but it is NOT the real world. So you can not use real world arguments to support a theory about the Star Wars universe.

 

Dagobahn - What I take Gameplay>Realism to mean (and it seems like Sith, who wears the phrase like a badge, doesn't think the same way) is that Realism is highly encouraged UNLESS it results in bad gameplay.

 

Corran - here is why they are "not Star Warsy":

 

"No ship that small has a cloaking device!" - Captain Needa.

 

So the existence of an IWM or a Spy Fighter CONTRADICTS the movies. Now if that is not "not Star-Warsy" I don't know what is.

 

GB2 would be a worse game with spy fighters and IWMs.

 

If you count Hoth as a seige then yes we did see a seige, but I don't. My point is that there wasn't a good place where a cannon or a pummel could have been used in the movies, so their existence isn't a contradication.

 

Special Abilities: I tend to think minor special abilities would be good, but anything like WC3's abilities and you have a game where the victor in a battle is whoever can click his ability the fastest. Minor special abilities, like s-foils and tow-cables, would be nice, but not "order orbital bombardment".

[lukeiamyourdad]

Of Course no-one has been talking about orbital bombardment and uch kinds of special abilities.

 

We have a spy fighter-its name is the Jedi Starfighter.But it's unique to the Jedi and Jedi only.

So your spy fighter and IWM will be against both gameplay and realism in this case. They will be both overpowered or simply useless in most situations. Overpowered because it can carry Masters from point A to point B without the need of researching Mind Trick and also other storng trooper size units.

[CorranSec]

Windu:

The space forces in Star Wars are the most important. It's Star Wars, not Ground Wars. I don't care what Lucas based it on... I don't care what irrelevant real-world examples you might bring up. The point is that space (or air) forces are important and should be the equal of ground.

 

Ground forces are very important, but they cannot do everything. The same doesn't always apply to air, but in the interests of gameplay, I'm making the two areas of "Ground" and "Air" equal.

Just remember that ground=air.

 

Sith:

In ground campaigns, a balanced air force is the equal of a balanced ground force. It seems obvious that you're basing your arguments on what you've seen of air forces in GB1, which was a terrible representation, and in no way doing justice to the Star Wars title.

In the battle at the end of AotC, there wasn't exactly a 'fleet' of gunships. The Confederacy/Trade Fed force was far more powerful than the gunships alone. However, if the Republic had brought in a varied and powerful array of air forces, they would have won with those alone.

The fleet of gunships may have been another component, but that was the 'medium ships' or 'gunships' component, not the 'air' component. Air is made up of three groups: 'fighters,' 'medium ships,' and 'capital ships.' Air is not a single group.

 

Special abilities- They're not going to be as game-shaking as WC3's hero spells. X-Wings gaining a speed increase in exchange for firepower (at the touch of a hotkey) is something that most gamers would consider good in the fields of entertainment, gameplay and realism.

 

Luke's dad:

The Jedi Starfighter is not designed as a spy fighter. It's designed as an all-around space superiority fighter that could become a powerful aid to the Jedi (in their quests to bring peace to the galaxy).

Why would the spy fighter be useless? It's an airborne scout. Why would it be overpowered? It's quite weak, with its cloak as its only advantage, and there will be plenty of detectors.

Why would the IWM be useless? It can carry a few units to an essential location undetected. Why would it be overpowered? It can only carry a few units, and there are plenty of detector units.

 

Vostok:

A single off-handed remark is not an ample argument to take out one of the essential things that makes air equal to ground.

Cannons and pummels could have been used in the movies. Pummels could have been used to knock down the walls of Echo Base. Cannons could have taken out the turrets and killed dozens of men in the trenches from long range. But were they there? No. Are they useful in-game? Yes.

 

What's so bad about orbital bombardment? I'm just thinking about something like the Ghost Nuke in StarCraft. Hard to use, not used often, yet quite deadly.

[Admiral Vostok]

Single off-handed remarks from the movies have spawned countless pieces of EU, so I would definitely not call anything said in the movies irrelevant, especially if I was as much of an EU fan as you. So when it contradicts everything you're proposing, I think you should have some respect for the movies and take notice.

 

Pummels could have been used to knock down the Echo Base walls, and maybe they did. Maybe that's how Vader and his snowtroopers blasted into the War Room.

 

Cannons couldn't be used because of the shields, so they definitely weren't there.

 

But there is no place for IWMs and SFs. They just don't fit into the Star Wars Universe, at least not the proper Universe as seen in the movies.

 

There are not plenty of detector units, and if there are in SWGB2 it will be bad because it will lessen the power of the mind trick.

 

Orbital Bombardment is all well and good, but it is not used as part of a battle. If they had have bombarded Hoth (which they couldn't because of the shields) they wouldn't have sent in a Ground Assault force. They would have bombarded and Vader would have landed straight away. Boring battle in my books.

[CorranSec]

Off-handed remarks that didn't really serve any purpose at all have never spawned EU. I assume you're referring to the anthologies ('Tales From') in which back stories have been devised for a lot of otherwise-unknown characters.

 

"Maybe" never wins a war, vostok. Pummels could've beeen used, but they weren't. But they're in the game. Gameplay>Realism.

 

Cannons could have been used. If the AT-ATs could blast the shield generator, cannons definitely could.

 

*sigh* Why don't IWMs and SFs 'fit?' The SF at least is absolutely essential for gameplay, and could easily be tailored to look like it could've been in the movies.

 

What do you mean, "there aren't plenty of detector units"? There aren't in GB1, but I'm planning to have them in GB2. Stop thinking GB1! Mind trick etc... perhaps detectors will pick up spy fighters, but not Jedi.

 

Orbital bombardment has been used in countless battles. But I'm only planning a surgical turbolaser strike at a particular area, not an all-out attack.

[SE_Vader_536]

whoa! back up there i missed the last oh 3 pages of how this sniper thing got to this...

[swphreak]

Originally posted by CorranSec

The space forces in Star Wars are the most important. It's Star Wars, not Ground Wars.

 

I agree completely. in fact, instead of a the Galactic Battlegrounds that we are all thinking about (GB1 & CC), I think they need to make GB2(or the GB related project) a Space RTS. Star Wars is in space. I think the ground battles are getting old. they need to finally make a space RTS. For example, a game like Homeworld: Cataclysm and Homeworld are awesome Space RTS games. LA needs to make a game like that, but with much, much better graphics.

 

and by the way, what does IWM stand for? i must have missed that part. . .

[SE_Vader_536]

that makes sense i mean swgb is mainly a ground based games primarily because AOE is. Air has no real use in swgb and many can play without even using it. Phreak is right we need to adress this in swgb cause man would it be kwel if we could make spade battles.

 

Oh and how about some more air tactics like fly and shoot?

[lukeiamyourdad]

NOOOO!!!!!!!!

 

SWGB2 should be a ground RTS. Keep the space stuff for another game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Like somebody else proposed, they should make two different games, one space and one ground. Then by owning both of those games, you could unlock special features.

[Admiral Vostok]

"Maybe" never wins a war, vostok. Pummels could've beeen used, but they weren't. But they're in the game. Gameplay>Realism.

How do you know it wasn't a cannon that blasted the whole we see in the movie that Vader walks in through?

 

Cannons could have been used. If the AT-ATs could blast the shield generator, cannons definitely could.

Actually shields work differently in the movies to how they are in SWGB. They don't give everything a shield, they create a shield bubble, like the Gungan's fambaas in Episode 1. While the battle droids were outside the bubble, they souldn't shoot in, but once inside the bubble they could shoot the Gungans. Cannons would be outside the bubble on Hoth, so not able to harm the generator, and if they went within the bubble they would have been in firing range of the turrets and would not have lasted as long as an AT-AT. So their deployment at Hoth was not sensible.

 

Why don't IWMs and SFs 'fit?' The SF at least is absolutely essential for gameplay, and could easily be tailored to look like it could've been in the movies.

THEY DON'T FIT BECAUSE THEY CONTRADICT! Just because you see Needa's line as irrelevant doesn't mean it is! And if a SF is so "essential" why does SWGB1 work without it? Surely a game missing an essential component would not work at all?

 

perhaps detectors will pick up spy fighters, but not Jedi.

Well if that's the case plenty of detectors are okay. I just thought that with plenty of detectors the Mind Trick would be worthless. I personally think the way they use invisibility in SWGB1 is perfect (at least after CC). Only Jedi should be able to be invisible. Any other invisible units and the Jedi's power because not as unique, and Jedi don't seem as good. This would have a bad effect on both gameplay and realism.

 

And I vote against weapons of mass-destruction (orbital bombardments). I'd rather slug it out in an epic battle, like Star Wars is supposed to be. Besides, how do you propose to balance an orbital bombardment? Realistically you couldn't give it to Gungans, Naboo and Wookiees, so it becomes to good for the other civs.

[swphreak]

It could be like a "God power" like in AoM, but that would be stupid for Star Wars so lets not go into details

[Sithmaster_821]

God Power-esque things in a Star Wars game is stupid.

 

Corran-Seeing that SWGB2 is the sequel to SWGB and not Rebellion, it probably will be a ground RTS not a space one

[CorranSec]

SWPhreak: Well, a space-based RTS would be good, but not as GB2.

 

Luke's dad: That sounds like a pretty second-rate idea. Why have two completely limited games when you can have equal parts ground and air in GB2? I mean, it can still be ground-based (most battles occur planetside), but there are more air forces.

 

Vostok:

How do you know that the Bothans didn't fly a spy fighter into the Endor system?

 

That Gungan shield system was unique. Most shields are like normal fighter shields- you shoot them, the thing doesn't get damaged but the shield does.

 

Perhaps Needa was meaning "no medium-sized ship," or "no freighter," or "no non-military" ship. I see Needa's line as irrelevant. The majority of viewers wouldn't even remember it. It was an off-handed remark that could have been replaced by a completely different line, and shouldn't be used as source material.

Gameplay>Realism....

 

Once again, stop thinking GB1. Perhaps the Mind Trick will work differently in GB2.

There should be plenty more cloakable units than a single unit. That's like saying "only utility frigates should be able to move on water." Cloaking adds new dimensions to the game and is a lot of fun. Jedi will be special in thousands of ways- you don't need a GB1-influenced Mind Trick to make them unique.

 

Okay, maybe we won't have orbital bombardments. But I still want plenty of other things (eg. S-foils).

 

Sith: Okay, so it's "ground-based" (ie the battles are on the ground, not flying around in space). All I want is a larger number of air units. I'm not trying to make Rebellion 2, or turn it into a space-based RTS. I just want more air units.

[Admiral Vostok]

Actually the Emperor leaked the information he wanted them to know to the Bothans, if you remember.

 

The Gungan system was not unique, except in the way it was protable. There are two types of shields: personal shields (like those on fighters) and planetary defense shields (like the one on Hoth and the one protecting the Second Death Star).

 

Think of it this way. If Needa was wrong and a cloaking device was available to a ship the size of the Millennium Falcon, don't you think the Falcon would have one? If I was a smuggler I would want one on my ship. I mean a 0.5 class hyperdrive is good, but surely a cloaking device is better and according to you more readily available. If Needa is wrong, it's some what of a contradiction in the fact that the Falcon doesn't have one. If they existed, Han would get one.

 

How do you propose the Jedi Mind Trick work in SWGB2 so as to make it just as unique and powerful as it is in SWGB1?

[CorranSec]

But perhaps they came into the Endor system in spy fighters, and picked up fragments of transmissions (that Palpatine had ordered leaked).

 

Well, there's no evidence that the Hoth shield was a Gungan shield or otherwise, so I'd rather leave that topic alone.

 

They'd probably be fiendishly expensive or only available to military forces. I mean, the Falcon could have all kinds of upgrades to make it even better better than it is, but does it have them? Nope. There's a limit, and that limit doesn't include a cloaking device.

Besides, it might not even be a cloaking device. They could have their energy sources shielded or make no transmissions, which means that they don't show up on sensors. They could have armour plating that reflects light waves, basically making them invisible. It could be anything, and it could be possible.

 

Well, for a start, it isn't unique and powerful in GB1. It's not unique because every single civ can get it, and it's not powerful because it's stripped away as soon as the Master attacks- and the Master was designed to attack, not to be used as a scout. And the fact is that it was designed for GB1's balance, and there's no way it would be balanced in GB2 unless it was identical to GB1. So it has to be different.

I just want to make it a lot more fun to use. I mean, in the current GB, it's basically an unnoticeable thing that makes the Master useful for infiltration or scouting. In GB2, I'd rather have it activatable, and have the Master designed as an infiltrator. After all, the incidences we've seen the Mind Trick used are all based around a Master trying to evade or escape from people. Obi-Wan used it on the Mos Eisley stormtroopers to prevent him from being found out. He also used it to distract troopers in the Death Star, enabling him to fulfil his infiltration mission.

I'd like Knights to be the real armies- and available in numbers, while Masters are rare, valuable for infiltration and deadly in battle.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well you can see things whatever way you want, but taken at face value an IWM and an SF are direct contradictions to Needa's line. Determining a different meaning to his lines will get around it, but I'm talking about basic matter-of-fact-ness.

 

What else could the Falcon have? According to EU, it's already filled with illegal stuff normally only allowed for the military. Shields? Got 'em. Fastest hyperdrive in the galaxy? Got it. Hidden military-grade weapons systems? Got 'em. Cloaking device? Doesn't exist for a ship the Falcon's size.

 

I think it's great that Masters lose the power of the mind trick when attacking. Not only does it make for balanced gameplay, but it makes total sense when thinking of realism:

 

A Jedi uses his powers for knowledge and defence, never for attack. So it stands to reason that his vulnerability should come when he is made to attack.

 

Jedi Mind Tricks only work on the weak minded. But no matter how dumb you are, you're going to think something strange is happening when you're getting hacked with a lightsaber. I can't see the Jedi waving his hand around and saying "I'm not here..." Slash! "I'm not attacking you right now..." Slash! "That isn't a lightsaber cutting into you..." Slash!

[CorranSec]

Sure, the Falcon's got plenty of stuff. But why does it have concussion missiles, and not top-of-the-line proton torps? Why can it get smacked up by only four TIEs that actually want them to get away? Why does its hyperdrive constantly fail? Why is it always falling apart in every direction possible?

Sure, the Falcon is a great ship. But there are some things it doesn't have. And, as I said, the SF doesn't actually have to have a cloaking device. Neither does the IWM.

It makes for balanced gameplay in the current game. I'm sure that in GB2, it'd be possible for masters not to lose the power of cloaking when attacking and it still be balanced.

 

Mere semantics. The actual inclusion of the Jedi in the game is against this philosophy, so that's invalid.

 

Mind tricks shouldn't work on an automated turret, but they do. Mind tricks shouldn't work on war machine sensors, but they do. What's up with that? But anyway...... couldn't the Jedi stay hidden, sneak up behind someone, and slash them? Couldn't he throw them into a wall? Couldn't he toss them off a bridge? A Jedi has plenty of ways to deal with people, and I'd like to include some of them in GB2.

[swphreak]

Well about the Bothans and the DS plans. if you played Shadows of Empire, i believe it was Dash Rendar who picked up the plans

or

If you wanna go by the book (Shadows) I believe Luke, Das, and Bothan attack a frieghter that is carry plan or something important for the Death Star. Like half the Bothans died, but who cares.

 

 

they should include a "Force-Push" for Jedi, and Iwould say "Force-Lighting" but The Smastas already do that. . .

[CorranSec]

Well, there are many conflicting versions of who picked up the DS plans. The Shadows of the Empire book has one, but it slightly contradicts things- you hear people say "Many Bothans lost their lives to get these plans," but do you hear about Luke or Dash? The SoE game has another idea, but I wouldn't accept it, because it doesn't have Bothans.

Who cares? Sacrilege, SWPhreak! For the Bothans....

*launches himself at SWPhreak*

Anyway...... it doesn't really matter, I'm just trying to convince Vostok that "maybe" never gets you anywhere.

 

A force push ability would be good. It should probably move target enemies (in front of the caster) back a little bit, as well as knocking them down (immobilising them).

Force lightning could be a Sith spell that took down multiple enemies at once. That'd be cool...

 

Pity you? Brainwashing? Huh...