Hows this for a basic model for SWGB 2? (long)

[Admiral Vostok]

I've thought a lot about this. Most people want unique unit sets, which is fine, but looking at Star Wars there are certain things that every civ has. So I thought of this (and keep in mind the game would work very differently to SWGB):

 

Units would be in two main categories: Personnel and War Machines.

 

PERSONNEL

All civs can get the same basic Personnel units. This is because by looking at the movies, we can see all civs DO have the same basic Personnel units. You can upgrade troopers do either be mounted on a beast, or to operate as scouts on speeder bikes.

1. Troopers

Function basically as they do now.

- Confederacy have Super Battle Droids

- Gungans have Militiagung

- Galactic Empire have Stormtroopers

- Rebel Alliance have Rebel Troopers

- Republic have Clone Troopers

- Royal Naboo have Royal Troopers

- Trade Federation have Battle Droids, and could also build an additional "trooper" in the form of a Droideka

(I'm going to leave out Wookiees even though I think they should be included, it's just that they have no units in the movies for me to provide examples).

 

2. Officers

Provide some sort leadership capabilities, whether this be in the form of a morale thing, or that you need an Officer for every x number of troops I don't know, and don't really want to debate. They are a significant part of the civs in the movies, so should be included. They wouldn't have an attack as standard, but could receive won in an upgrade.

- Confederacy actually wouldn't get Officers, because they don't have them in the movie so Super Battle Droids would have a special ability that they don't need them to function.

- Gungans would have Officers who look like Captain Tarpals

- Galactic Republic would have the olive-uniformed Officers like Grand Moff Tarkin

- Rebel Alliance would have the brown-uniformed Officers like General Madine

- Republic would have Clone Troopers with the yellow trim

- Royal Naboo would have officers in blue and red like Panaka and Typho

- Trade Federation would have the Battle Droids with the yellow trim like OOM-9

 

3. Pilots

Pilots would be used to pilot the War Machines. Some War Machines require multiple pilots.

- Confederacy have Geonosians

- Gungans would have a variant of militiagung

- Galactic Republic have black-suited Pilots

- Rebel Alliance have orange-suited Pilots

- Republic have Clone troopers (they might need different art than as depicted in the movies, as both Clone Trooper commanders and pilots have yellow trim. Maybe demote the Clone Trooper Officer above to Captain so he has Red trim)

- Royal Naboo have the pilots like Ric Olie

- Trade Federation have the Battle Droids with the blue trim

 

WAR MACHINES

War Machines are mostly pilotted by Pilots. They don't cost any population to build, so you can keep unmanned War Machines in reserve in hangars. You can buy more War Machines than you have pilots to drive them, but you won't be able to use them unless pilotted. This would be good so if a Pilot's War Machine is destroyed, he can return to base and have a new one waiting for him. War Machines fall into 3 categories, just like Personnel, but each civ has unique War Machines, making each War Machine's cost different. The categories are Air, Ground and Sea.

 

1. Air

If you research shields, your Air will cost more, allowing civs without shields to swarm more effectively.

- Confederacy have Geonosian fighters and you could make some Conferacy pilots become Geonosian Warriors as a special ability(but they don't count as War Machines)

- Gungans have the aiwhas

- Galactic Empire have TIE Fighters, TIE Bombers, etc.

- Rebel Alliance have X-Wings, Y-Wings, Airspeeders, etc.

- Republic have Jedi Starfighters, Gunships, etc.

- Royal Naboo have N1 Starfighters

- Trade Federation have Droid Starfighters. As a civ bonus, TF Air don't require pilots, but will cost population.

 

2. Ground

- Confederacy have Dwarf Spider Droids, Homing Spider Droids, Hailfire Droids, etc. As a civ bonus, Confed Ground don't require pilots, but will cost population.

- Gungans have Fambaas, Kaadus, Catapults, etc. Fambaas could optionally be fitted with a Shield Generator.

- Galactic Empire have AT-STs, AT-ATs, etc.

- Rebel Alliance need some EU Ground.

- Republic have AT-TEs, SPHA-Ts, etc.

- Royal Naboo have Gian Speeders, Flash Speeders, etc.

- Trade Federation have AATs, MTTs, STAPs, etc.

 

3. Sea

Pretty much EU for everyone as it is now.

 

Also, everyone can hire Workers, Bounty Hunters and Jedi. You can upgrade Bounty Hunters in similar ways as you do Jedi at the moment. Some civs would get better Bounty Hunters while some would get better Jedi.

 

I have a few ideas for resources, alliances, trading, etc. but I'm not particularly in favour of any of them. I just thing the above unit category system would be great for a Star Wars game, as it follows the movie closely. I haven't gone into details on most things, but I might mention I see a simple morale based system (which I'll give a basic description of if people are interested), as well as terrain related effects (snowstorms) and simple unit abilities that could be researched. By the latter I mean you could research a "swimmer" ability for Gungan troops, you could combine two troopers into a heavy weapons team to get repeater guns, etc. Various units would be able to shoot air rather than having AA units which are devoted to only shooting air (which we don't really see in the movies).

 

Well if you've bothered to read all this please give an opinion!

[mariners2001]

Wow. This is one great thread! Thank you so much for posting this. I hope Gaber reads this.

 

I completely agree with everything you said.

 

I've always thought that pilots should be a unit separate from the ships and should be required to man units.

 

Also. I have an idea about Jedi:

 

Have each Jedi unit start as padawan and have some way that each one has to advance. Like to become a Jedi Knight you have to protect a certain number of units, destroy a certain number of enemies and so on. And later on Jedi Masters can train padawans and make them train faster. So basically make a Jedi training system. This would be awesome! Anyone understand? lol

[Crazy_dog no.3]

PERSONEL:

Preferably not have to upgrade, better kept same as current GB/CC

 

OFFICERS:

Oh this would work, especially if RoN were used.

 

PILOTS:

Too much micro

 

AIR:

Interesting, haven't made up mind on that one yet

 

GROUND:

What do u mean? Keep as current game or not?

 

SEA:

Everyone except Gungans, 'cuase we see thier bongoes.

As for everyone else, like u said, it should be EU.

[Admiral Vostok]

Thanks Mariners, great idea with the Jedi. Might have to steal that one!

 

Crazydog, I don't think pilots would be too much micro. Basically you buy them and stick them in a War Machine and leave them. Its like a way of activating the War Machines. Once the War Machines are destroyed, the Pilot would survive to be used again. However, enemies could kill the stranded pilots, but upgrades could be bought to equip them with something like a flightsuit for better armour and standard issue blasters so they could attack, albeit very weakly.

 

As for Ground, I suggest with Unique Unit Sets we combine existing Mechs and Heavy Weapons into Ground War Machines. Not everyone would have a "Mech Destroyer" for example, but the Homing Spider Droid and the Gian Speeder at least would have bonuses against War Machines. AT-STs and Droidekas would be excellent against Personnel (though the Droideka would be easier to kill), and the AAT would be decent against both Personnel and War Machines.

 

I forgot to mention above, though you might have gathered, that War Machines don't count against population, only Pilots do. So you could have a lot of unmanned War Machines in reserve. Think I'll add this up top for other readers.

[Crazy_dog no.3]

Yeah it would! Most gamers are used to just selecting thier factory, clicking 20 times on the tank icon or whatever it is in the given game, go away to fight a battle, and expect to come back and see 20 tanks up and ready.

[DarthMuffin]

This looks really great, BUT...

 

I think there are too many civs... It would be better with less and DIFFERENT civ...

 

For example, 2 "bad" civs, 2 "good" civ. 2 "original" civ and 2 "prequel" civ.

 

-GE\-bad - original

---------------------these two are musts

-RA/-good - original

 

-Confeds - bad - prequel- they would include the TF

 

-Reps - good - prequel

 

Civs that we should not include

-Wooks - we don't see them much in the movies... maybe just chewie as a reb hero

 

-Gungans - we only see troops, fambaas and catapults... that's not enough for a civ IMO...

 

-TF would be included in the confed

 

-For the nabs, i don't really know... We see them in the movies, but they are not so important...

[lukeiamyourdad]

Originally posted by Darth54

This looks really great, BUT...

 

I think there are too many civs... It would be better with less and DIFFERENT civ...

 

For example, 2 "bad" civs, 2 "good" civ. 2 "original" civ and 2 "prequel" civ.

 

-GE\-bad - original

---------------------these two are musts

-RA/-good - original

 

-Confeds - bad - prequel- they would include the TF

 

-Reps - good - prequel

 

Civs that we should not include

-Wooks - we don't see them much in the movies... maybe just chewie as a reb hero

 

-Gungans - we only see troops, fambaas and catapults... that's not enough for a civ IMO...

 

-TF would be included in the confed

 

-For the nabs, i don't really know... We see them in the movies, but they are not so important...

 

Rebs, Imps,Rep and confed are a must that's for sure.

 

gungans: More then enough! we see a city an army, everything! What else do you need?

 

wookiees: Yeah that's true but who cares anyway.

 

Naboo: not much of an army but more then enough to make a civ. A planet, a city, some guards, starfighters. Just enough.

[Crazy_dog no.3]

Trade Federation and Separatists are 2 different groups. Read the Star Wars Databank if u're not sure.

[Admiral Vostok]

I think you need either Gungans or Naboo or both so you can play some scenarios from Episode I. Also, combining Confeds and Trade Federation into Separatists wouldn't be too great as both civs have enough canon units to adequately make different civs.

 

I like the civs as they are now, even with Wookiees. My friend and I have lately been playing games which we call "natural alliances". We have four teams of two each, made up of civs that would naturally fight together against a common enemy. We have "Palpatine's Forces" (Republic and Empire), "Separatists" (Trade Fed and Confederacy), "People of Naboo" (Royal Naboo and Gungans) and the "Freedom Fighters" (Rebels and Wookiees). I think this makes for characterful games and I wouldn't like to see any less or any more civs.

 

And Crazy Dog, are you saying having an army ready while you've been off battling would be good or bad? I think it wouldn't be great. However, you could still do a similar thing as War Machines would take a while to build but Pilots wouldn't. So you could go off and fight, getting several War Machines made while you're away. Don't forget the only restriction on building War Machines is your resources, they don't cost any pop (except TF Air and Confed Ground). So when you come back you have a force waiting, but you'll need to train more pilots, or re-assign your survivors to get it mobile. This adds a certain realism that doesn't get in the way of gameplay.

 

Any more criticisms of my idea?

[Crazy_dog no.3]

Yep. Ur war machines will be standing mindlessly not defending themselves against attack. It's easy to forget pilots, even if they are built in the same building.

 

Heh, this reminds me of a guy back in the RoN forums who said u should build Colosseums to entertain ur villies. Then villies occasionaly come to watch. The main problem with that was: U NEED THEM TO WORK, DAMMIT!

In the same way u need ur vehicles to FIGHT, and FIGHT NOW! U don't have the bloody time to micromanage all those pilots, u need it NOW!

[lukeiamyourdad]

That's not too much micro having pilots.

If Jedi converting is removed, we could get our pilot, sneek into the hangar and steal some mech!

[Admiral Vostok]

It doesn't matter what you WANT your vehicles to do, Crazy Dog. Although I'd agree that Gameplay>Realism, in this case the realism adds a more exciting level to gameplay. No longer can you unrealistically leave your army to build itself, it actually takes a bit of thought.

 

And Luke's Dad, I'd thought of that too. But I think having pilots steal enemy vehicles would need to be an upgrade that doesn't become available until late in the game. It should definitely be included, like what Chewie and the Ewoks did at the Battle of Endor!

 

I agree that pilots fall into the category of micromanagement, but they aren't so micro-intensive as to be amazingly annoying. What if you could set pilots to auto-man War Machines, so technically you could still build up your reserve army? Would you be against them then?

[Crazy_dog no.3]

Then there should be an option to disble it, if, like me, u hate this idea.

[Admiral Vostok]

I just realised DMUK has posted Garry Gaber's answers to our questions. It looks like Garry is going to be checking out ideas we've discussed in these forums.

 

So, at the risk of sounding like a blatant opportunist, Mr Gaber if you think any of my ideas sound good, I would do anything to get into Games Design. I've been making levels with scenario editors since WarCraft 2 days and I'm currently working full-time as a Software Engineer specialising in C and C++. I play all sorts of games, computer games, tabletop war games, board games, everything, and I'm always thinking of ways in which I could feasibly improve on the games. But above all I love everything about the Star Wars movies. Please drop me an email at pundle@hotmail.com if you have anything to say.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Hahaha...

 

Crazy Dog: If it was up to some members of this forum, swgb2 would be a game with 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 options...

[Sithmaster_821]

Officers: Bad idea. Little to no RTS has done morale boosting right to date, and most failed or unpopular RTS's have it, and the two major RTS making studios (Blizzard and ES), stay clear of it. Does that show something?

 

Pilots: Ditto what Luke and Crazy have said. Too complicated and too micro-intensive, not to mention people would be pissed off that they would have to build two units to use one

 

Shielded air that costs more is a really, really, really good idea

 

And i will explain gameplay>realism again. It is NOT thinking up of a realism idea, and then modifing it to fit or even "enhance" the gameplay, but thinking up of a gameplay option or problem, and then making it fit or enhance the realism

[Admiral Vostok]

So basically you want a game that is just like what we've already got in the form of other games at the moment?

 

And If that's the way Gameplay>Realism is meant to be taken then I'll have to stop agreeing with it. Games are always being made with realism in mind. It is when representations of realism begin to have a negative impact on gameplay that it becomes Gameplay>Realism. However, if a concept of realism is introduced that could make gamers use a bit more strategy, even if the game might be easier without it, it should definitely be at least considered.

 

So they think up a gameplay option then fit it to a reality concept? Are you suggesting they said:

"Wouldn't it be great if we could have some units that can go over terrain like trees and mountains?"

"Yeah! Now what can we fit to that?"

"How about fighters and bombers!"

"Hey! Great idea!"

 

I personally think they did it the other way round, fitting the gameplay to the realism.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Yeah Vostok is right.

 

Pilots: Micro-intensive? Yes and no. you could choose to build a pilot and it would move directly to a non-piloted War machine. Won't be too micro-intensive then.

[Acharjay]

Yeah, or you could have a little option you can toggle, that makes them automatically get in the nearest mech, or the nearest mech of a specific type.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Exactly!:cool:

[Sithmaster_821]

Vostok, Gameplay>Realism works like this:

 

1. The game designer takes a broad topic, lets say troopers for example

2. They divide and begin to create a basic game design and basic units based on what makes sense gameplaywise (there has to be a ranged trooper and a melee trooper)

3. They modify the models based on basic balance (the melee trooper has to be fast to make up for its lack of range)

4. Then they delienate to the units jobs that are required by gameplay (the melee trooper will be good vs buildings so that early attackers can assualt towns)

5. They balance the units inside the broad topic or small group (The melee trooper is too strong because of its speed and building bonus, and, since the ranged trooper is weak vs buildings, its should be strong against the melee trooper)

6. As other broad topics are formed, counter units from different groups are created and the game starts being balanced as a whole (the melee trooper cant be too good vs mechs, so we should add a trooper that can repel early mech attacks. Also, lets add a trooper that can repel early air raids)

7. After most of the units are created, they start fiddling with numbers and stats, until the game is balanced as a whole, and each civ is balanced as a whole and each group is balanced as a whole and each unit is balanced as a whole, and you have a finished product.

 

All along, they are smugding realism to fit the game they are creating. Realism has little to no effect on the gameplay, but the latter certainly has a big after on the former

[Admiral Vostok]

But they still start with the idea of a trooper, which comes from...

REALITY

 

Even by your example, the start with reality and turn it into gameplay. That contradicts what you said before that they take gameplay and turn it to reality.

 

I'm taking reality (pilots) and turning into gameplay. I could have made it more realistic by saying "you need to build different pilots for sea, air and ground" but that would get in the way of gameplay. So one pilot that can drive any vehicle is a gameplay version of the reality pilot, which is only skilled in driving one vehicle.

[lukeiamyourdad]

All games start from reality....AoE, AoK, AoM, C&C serie, even the -Crafts!

 

I'm with ya Vostok!

[Sithmaster_821]

Yes all games start with a very vague reality, like there will be planes and soldiers and civilizations, but from then on, its gameplay

[lukeiamyourdad]

Very vague? no very clear actually. Like a fighter for example. If gameplay was everything important in a game let's say that it doesn't work in terms of gameplay. Then a fighter ,for some reason, cannot be good vs aircraft because of a certain gameplay factor.(Still an example). Then people will be: What the hell?! A fighter that's not good against aircraft! That's crap!

 

Reality although not as important as gameplay is pretty close.