CorranSec Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Well, you said that whatever builds for the Ewok (ie a worker/villager) would also be the trap-builder, yet now you're assuming that the trapper only builds traps. But I think the trapper should only build traps, and would have a fairly small attack- less than a typical trooper, yet more than a workers. As for different traps- you mean like a trap upgrade research, or going from "Trooper Trap" to "Mech Trap"? That would be pretty bad, seeing as a) the traps would end up being all-purpose and just getting more powerful or b) after lots of research you wouldn't be able to access a trooper trap, only a heavy mech trap or whatever. Different kinds of traps is definitely the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Well, you said that whatever builds for the Ewok (ie a worker/villager) would also be the trap-builder, yet now you're assuming that the trapper only builds traps. What I meant was that the Ewok worker should replace the hypothetical trapper if all it did was build traps because having 2 units that build is plain stupid. As for different traps- you mean like a trap upgrade research, or going from "Trooper Trap" to "Mech Trap"? That would be pretty bad No, the traps should be all-purpose (i.e. they have nothing they excel against) but as you get higher along in the ages, you can build stronger and stronger traps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted March 2, 2003 Author Share Posted March 2, 2003 Hmmmm.... Different traps... It depends. If we have a tech lvl system this works perfectly fine but if not then...it doesn't work as well. And we need air traps and ground traps anyway. Since stronger traps are supposed to cost more, I think having to build a very strong trap that costs a lot just to kill a few troopers is a big waste... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Oh, of course stronger traps cost more. That's the point. And I agree that Ewoks also need an air trap as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 I think a seperate unit for trappers is better, just to add a bit more variety for the Ewoks if nothing else. They should have a weaker attack than standard Warriors, but not as weak as Workers. 2 building units is not stupid, especially when they can't build each other's stuff. The Worker can only build buildings, while the Trapper builds traps. They are pretty different. However, I think building a trap would be similar to building a building. I've changed my mind about only being able to build three traps, that seems a bit dumb. The Trapper can build as many as he likes, but they each have a resource cost attached. When I said trooper traps and mech traps I meant those traps could still hurt other units, but get a bonus against one class of unit. So mech traps can still kill troopers, but they get a bonus against mechs. Once the trap is sprung, would they remain in play? I'd say not, otherwise you could totally block off passages for the entire game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Sith: I'm not considering actually having "stronger traps." A trooper-trap is not stronger than a mech trap, or vice versa, and although you might upgrade the trooper-trap to an "Elite trooper-trap" or some such, that shouldn't make it cost more. Vostok: Yep. I totally agree with the first 3 paragraphs. However, it seems natural that a trap would be a one-off. You lay it, it springs, it makes a whole bunch of dead things, and it's gone. It's not like you can rig a tree branch to fall on one AT-ST, and then have it fall again on another a few seconds later...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted March 3, 2003 Author Share Posted March 3, 2003 It depends on what kind of trap. Like those big logs that crushed the AT-ST. You could have a skill for the trapper to reload the trap for a smaller cost then a new trap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Corran/Vostok-It is much better to have all-purpose traps then regular ones. That's like having towers that are good vs mechs and those good vs troopers and those good vs heavies And I think its a good idea that the worker be able to reload the traps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Sith- why? Other civs have mechs that are good vs troops and good vs mechs, why shouldn't Ewok traps be the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Because they aren't units, they are essentially buildings. The Ewoks themselves must have anti-trooper and anti-mech units, but buildings cannot discriminate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Sith: They aren't buildings. Obviously, they're not units either, but they're far closer to units. Buildings are either defensive, economical or military, and most can either garrison units, build units or research technologies. Units can generally move and do damage to enemies. Although a trap cannot move, it seems to fall into the latter category. And, funnily enough, buildings do discriminate. In GB1, a typical Laser Turret isn't that great against an AT-AT, but is good against a Frigate or Laser Trooper. An all-purpose trap would either be underpowered (because it has to do the same damage against everything) or overpowered (it can kill everything! aargh!). Just as you have a Mech Factory to build Mechs/a Troop Center to build troopers, a Laser Turret against ground/an AA turret against air, a Strike Mech against troopers/a Mech Destroyer against mechs, so you have a Trooper-trap against troopers/a Mech-trap against mechs. Luke's dad: I don't think actually building traps will cost anything. You build the unit, and its 3 or so one-use-only traps come with it. But the Trapper is fairly useless in battle, so when you pay for the unit creation, you're mostly paying for the traps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 I'd say they operate similar to buildings, but of course only trappers can build them. I think there should be a resource cost attached to building traps, and the trapper has no limit as to how many he can build. So basically the trapper operates like a weak Ewok Warrior with the unique ability to build as many traps as he wants. Each trap costs a certain amount, and can be either trooper-focused, mech-focused or air-focused. Each trap can damage units other than it's main focus, but it gets a bonus against the focus units. The traps could only be seen by a scout or other detector. Once seen, they can be destroyed, though melee attacks will set them off. If not detected they damage all enemy units in a small area effect when the enemy passes through or very close to them. Trooper trap: a concealed pit Mech trap: a number of large logs are released. Air trap: large stakes are shot into the air. The can fall back to earth damaging ground units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eizo131 Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Hey guys I've been dead for about half a year what's with all these SWGB2 threads? Their isn't going to be a sequel is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Sith: They aren't buildings. Obviously, they're not units either, but they're far closer to units. Buildings are either defensive, economical or military, and most can either garrison units, build units or research technologies. Units can generally move and do damage to enemies. Although a trap cannot move, it seems to fall into the latter category. What about sentry towers or houses? They can't move or do any of that other stuff. Are they units? There are two main things that separate buildings from units: -They can't be moved -Are built by units Traps seem like buildings to me But that is besiide the point. Traps shouldn't have bonuses because a) they can't move and b) they can't even be told to attack. Whether you know it or not, unit counters and bonuses are far from arbitrary. They are all added to make any unit combination beatable and add more strategy to the game. Both of those principals are defeated if the building can't move or be directed. Consider the problem that ES is facing now: Walking Woods have a bonus vs buildings. But, because they are unable to be directed, they rarely are able to utilize their bonus Note about tower bonuses: Tower bonuses vs ships stems back to AoK, where it was one way to keep land-to-sea balance. eizo-LA has hinted that a sequel is in the works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Vostok: Why not have a limit on the number of traps built and the cost included with the Trapper unit? Without a limit, one trapper of each trap kind could build your traps for the whole game, and would end up being quite similar to a worker. Sith: Houses are economic. Towers are defensive, and garrison units. Traps are none of these. My point about the sentry tower bonuses still stands. Do you then consider towers units? Also, buildings are built by Villagers/Peasants/Workers/whatever they're called nowadays. Traps are not, and are in fact a kind of 'secondary attack' for a kind of Ewok warrior. And thus, traps are no more like buildings than proton torpedoes are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Sith: I see traps as being similar to spider mines in StarCraft. They're not buildings, they're not units, they're something else entirely. I am in agreeance with Corran, that there should be a limit of traps a trapper can build (though trappers can repair wounded traps at any time) and their cost should be included in the cost for the trapper. Also, your argument as to why they shouldn't get bonuses doesn't make sense. Basically you're saying "They might not get to use that bonus, so don't bother giving it to them". We aren't suggesting they be crap vs anything else, just that they get a bonus for certain classes. If up against the empire, you might build only mech traps. They'll still injure stormtroopers, but should an imperial mech wander into your trap you'd prefer to have a bonus. Alternatively when playing against Wookiees, they have strong troopers so trooper traps might be a better choice. If against the Confeds, maybe both kinds of traps should be built. It just adds a bit more diversity and thinking about your opponent, something I like to see in RTS games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eizo131 Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Thanks, I was lost their for a sec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted March 9, 2003 Author Share Posted March 9, 2003 It's been awhile since I've been here. Traps are not really buildings since they can't be use for more then once. Traps should get bonuses because it adds diversity and fun. it's better then a pit hole destroying a mech because there is only one trap... Limit number of traps that can be built by a trapper(like if he doesn't have enough wood anymore) but trapper unit doesn't come with the cost of all the traps. A cost for the trapper and a separate cost for each trap. I'm assuming that each trap has a different cost here. A trooper trap costs less then a mech trap and an air one. It wouldn't be fair if you had to pay the cost of three air trap(In my mind this trap costs more then the others) when you're gonna build three trooper traps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 OK, I agree that traps aren't buildings, just an extension of the trapper unit. As for bonuses, do you people realize why bonuses are in the games? It's not so that you can build what ever unit you want and if it happens to have a bonus vs the unit you are fighting then yippee! Many RTS's don't have bonuses (like _Craft), and they are missing out on a big part of strategy. The varying bonuses and strengths form a complex web of units and counter-units. This aspect of strategy only works because the player can control the bonuses. They pick which units to build and, mor e importantly, which ones to attack. If you had mech destroys fighting a squadron of strikes and troopers, would you let them arbitrarily attack any unit, and if they hit mechs your lucky, and if they hit troopers oh well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-99 Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 Death star troopers or Rebel Civs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 Sith, I know what bonuses are, and I'm trying to slot the traps into this 'web of units.' They're counter-trooper, counter-mech and counter-air things. The player picks which kinds of traps to place where. If you saw a big convoy of troopers and a few mechs, wouldn't you wish you had a whole bunch of trooper traps and a few mech traps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted March 10, 2003 Author Share Posted March 10, 2003 Like with group of units, you could build many types of traps at one location. Like in regular games, you send troopers to help mech destroyers against other troopers. Here you would have a trooper trap that helps a mech trap deal with troopers. Traps are already a random thing. You can't really expect the comp to go over that place(saying that there are other ways to access your base by air or sea). If it goes over that place then good. If it detects it and the trap gets destroyed then it's life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted March 11, 2003 Share Posted March 11, 2003 Exactly. This is a secret civ we're discussing here, so what's the harm in adding a bit of variety? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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